[tyndal23]

And there always will be if we stay at G5 - period, end of story. No conference that we want will take us, wishing and hoping aren’t going to change that. We can control level of Indy we play in as early as 2026 based on schedule.

I must be missing something. How are we, a brand new FBS school, going to transform ourselves to a P5 equivalent? Nothing like that has happened in the modern history so we would have to somehow find a way to break new ground. You seem really confident that we can do this so please feel free to share your thoughts on how we make it happen.

Apparently LU just tells the NCAA (not exactly sure whom at the NCAA, let’s just say ‘Them’) that it is now identifying as a P5 equivalent. Which is actually genius come to think of it. Because in this day and age we aren’t supposed to question someone who identifies as something . Then you add the “Name It Claim It “ dynamic to get the Evangelical Big Dollar churches on Board and next stop.....Playing Clemson for the National Title after beating Notre Dame in the Semi Final. Doc dreamed it. So it has to happen!

Or........

LU continues to build a consistent winner and fan support. Pull off some upsets to get people to take notice and thus position themselves to look good when the next shake ups roll around.

Shakeup - if it happens, will be before 2026 anyway based on TV contracts. Regardless, we aren’t making the cut to any P5 conference due to academics and political stance - whatever is left over will be G5 and I want no part of it. if u are referring to the breakaway from NCAA from the schools that want to pay players and have a euro soccer type schedule and no conferences ( that has been written about ) - then we might can buy or sue our way in to that club regardless. But Indy - the only thing stopping us from being P5 equivalent is the mindset of “ no one has done it before “.

[thepostman]

@tyndal23 I admire your faith but what you are speaking of is something that has never happened in the modern FBS. Could things change? Sure. But what you are saying could happen would require complete systematic change. Change that would require college presidents to improve which means our politics would certainly play a factor.

I want us to continue to grow the program and the Cure Bowl win is a great starting point but I just am not sure I see LU leading the charge on systematic change.

[Class of 20Something]

@tyndal23

We are currently observing that the basketball team is having trouble scheduling high major programs. There are even rumor mill points on this topic. This is largely dude to Liberty having a higher tier coach than the quality of player we have moving the team into national competitiveness in a matter of five years. Basketball has a conference schedule that accommodates halfway of this problem.

If Liberty were to posture, plan and perform even 5-6 P5 games a year, what makes you think that football wouldn't have the same scheduling difficulties? Remember both parties have to sign the contract. Our donors won't accept fewer than 6 home games.

If football is two years into what happened with Ritchie turning that team around, football may not be far from those same issues regardless of who we schedule.

We will not be a "good loss" for any P5 in any sport for several years.

[Ill flame]

I understand some of you are banking on this massive realignment in 2023 when the tv contracts start to end but I think you may be disappointed. The big ten is usually the conference that leads the way in realignment while everyone reacts and I don't think the big ten is interested in splitting that tv money 16 ways unless they can add a huge school like Texas.
If the big ten doesn't expand, the SEC most likely won't feel the need too either. Texas will ultimately decide if major realignment will happen this cycle.

[tyndal23]

@tyndal23 I admire your faith but what you are speaking of is something that has never happened in the modern FBS. Could things change? Sure. But what you are saying could happen would require complete systematic change. Change that would require college presidents to improve which means our politics would certainly play a factor.

I want us to continue to grow the program and the Cure Bowl win is a great starting point but I just am not sure I see LU leading the charge on systematic change.

Really ? What ACC team is refusing to play us ? It is way better for them to play a lower end P5 than a high end G5. Politics have little to nothing to do with schedule - it has everything to do with letting us in a conference - which I am stating is slim to none we ever get invited to a P5 - hence the Indy P5 which is entirely in our control.

[tyndal23]

@tyndal23 I admire your faith but what you are speaking of is something that has never happened in the modern FBS. Could things change? Sure. But what you are saying could happen would require complete systematic change. Change that would require college presidents to improve which means our politics would certainly play a factor.

I want us to continue to grow the program and the Cure Bowl win is a great starting point but I just am not sure I see LU leading the charge on systematic change.

Really ? What ACC team is refusing to play us ? It is way better for them to play a lower end P5 than a high end G5. Politics have little to nothing to do with schedule - it has everything to do with letting us in a conference - which I am stating is slim to none we ever get invited to a P5 - hence the Indy P5 which is entirely in our control.

Also - what systematic change are you referring to and LU leading the way ? Maybe you are confusing me with someone else. This has nothing to do with any other program or system overall. Personally I don’t think there will be any major realignments or even minor with next tv deals. I think pay for play will get sorted with ncaa as well and there won’t be a break away - regardless - none of that has to do with LU scheduling P5 and budgeting P5. Even if ACC doesn’t treat LU as a P5 - having 2/3 of your schedule as P5 will get P5 recruits and in a position to be the ND and BYU for evangelical / conservatives - nothing related to G5 will get us there now or later - it is a non starter. So is the goal to be Boise St / App St or is it BYU ND ? I have a whole other segment on scheduling - but this thread is about Cure Bowl celebration - probably should take this over to Independent thread.

[thepostman]

@tyndal23 I admire your faith but what you are speaking of is something that has never happened in the modern FBS. Could things change? Sure. But what you are saying could happen would require complete systematic change. Change that would require college presidents to improve which means our politics would certainly play a factor.

I want us to continue to grow the program and the Cure Bowl win is a great starting point but I just am not sure I see LU leading the charge on systematic change.

Really ? What ACC team is refusing to play us ? It is way better for them to play a lower end P5 than a high end G5. Politics have little to nothing to do with schedule - it has everything to do with letting us in a conference - which I am stating is slim to none we ever get invited to a P5 - hence the Indy P5 which is entirely in our control.

I think you may be misunderstanding me. I am not talking about right now. I am talking about your future dreams of us being considered an independent P5. A lot of politics would be at play and the only independent truly considered a P5 level program is Notre Dame. BYU is considered largely as a high level G5 program. With both of those school there is a ton of history and we do not have any. We are more likely to have high level bowl opportunities as a member of the AAC than we do as an independent with hol the FBS is assembled today.

What you are suggesting would take systematic change which is something that rarely gets accomplished by a school outside of the Power conferences.

I just can't wrap my mind around what you are proposing and that is fine. It is clear neither one of us will change our minds on this and that is ok too.

[Purple Haize]

What exactly is “Indy P5”? Outside of “Name It Claim It” how does a school officially obtain the Indy P5 definition? Where is that designation in college football? ND has a long and storied history which is the exception that proves the rule. Even still they’ve had to tie scheduling in with an ACC agreement.

Spending like a P5 doesn’t not make you a P5.
Recruiting P5 players doesn’t make you P5.
Playing P5 schools don’t make you a P5.

You make the case passionately from the LU stand point. But there is no basis in reality for your dreams to come true at the moment
You keep downplaying the difficulty of scheduling P5 games. Which will be amplified the first time LU upsets them.
You don’t explain how an arrangement with the ACC is good for the ACC. The closest you get is saying it’s better to play a low P5 than a high G5. That’s debatable but doesn’t address the point that a) LU isn’t a low P5 b) there is no Indy P5 clarification c) Why would the ACC tie it’s hands vis a vis scheduling by coming to an arrangement with another Independent school?

[Ill flame]

Imo you need three thing to be a "indie p5"
1. National fanbase that travels well (this is a big factor for bowl committees)
2. P5 designation from at least a couple p5 conferences for scheduling purposes. (Several bigger AAC schools have accomplished this so it's doable if you have the fanbase/name brand to back it up)
3) Play like a p5
Notre Dame has these three things. BYU has 2 of 3 and is only a few 10 win seasons away from being treated like a true p5. If liberty had 10,000+ fans at most away game like Notre Dame seems to have. P5 teams would have incentive to keep scheduling us even after we start beating them. Right now that's not the case unfortunately.

[Purple Haize]

Imo you need three thing to be a "indie p5"
1. National fanbase that travels well (this is a big factor for bowl committees)
2. P5 designation from at least a couple p5 conferences for scheduling purposes. (Several bigger AAC schools have accomplished this so it's doable if you have the fanbase/name brand to back it up)
3) Play like a p5
Notre Dame has these three things. BYU has 2 of 3 and is only a few 10 win seasons away from being treated like a true p5. If liberty had 10,000+ fans at most away game like Notre Dame seems to have. P5 teams would have incentive to keep scheduling us even after we start beating them. Right now that's not the case unfortunately.

I agree with those points. But at the end of the day your 2nd Point is most salient. Others have to bestow the P5 label on you (I will disagree about the AAC teams being P5 equivalent). You can claim to be whatever you want, but it doesn’t make it true.
#3 is sort of vague but I see where you are going. BYU has a Heisman Trophy winner an unseated season and a mythical National Championship. Yet still they are seen AT BEST a G5+ program. So if they haven’t reached this mythical “Indy P5” level imagine what it’s going to take for LU

[ballcoach15]

LU bookstore website has Cure Bowl Champions t shirts. 27.99

I went by bookstore this morning. They only had about 8 of the t shirts left, all in smaller sizes. No XLs. I was told they would not be ordering anymore . In my opinion, someone , somewhere did a very poor job in marking these t shirts. When it comes to stuff like this, we are not "FBS ready". If they run out, they should order more. Plus I don't think any hats were ever available .

[Ill flame]

I left 3 purposefully vague because a big part of us scheduling as an independent will be the perception that other AD's have of us. This will always be true even if we were a p5.
I'm of the opinion that being independent could get us to high g5 status but it would be tough to take that next step as it is right now. If we were to go to the final 4 in basketball that could help with the fanbase/name brand side of the problem though.

[Geraldos Mustache]

This thread has really gotten off topic - but here are my thoughts on the matter...

My premise is: Be true to who you are - don't try to be something you are not.

Therefore - who is Liberty Football?
Liberty Football is the only Division 1 FBS program from a truly Christian university. I don't call Texas Christian or Baylor truly Christian schools. There are a lot of non-Christian, spiritually apathetic, agnostic students who choose to attend TCU and Baylor. Not the case with LU. We attract practicing Evangelical Christian students from Christian families who are fired up and want to grow in their faith. Everything LU does supports and promotes this. We are unique.

Let's be that. Let's be the one school in the nation (as BYU is for Mormons) that Evangelical Christians want to root for. This is all about how LU markets itself. We don't NEED to be a P5 school in a P5 conference to achieve our goal. Does it help to be P5 ? Of course - but it is not necessary.

I see a lot of hand wringing and concern from fans on this board that are striving to become or anxious we will never become a P5. Those people are setting themselves up for disappointment because they are seeking a definition and entry into a club that Liberty will never be accepted into. Why get stressed about that?

Be comfortable in your own skin. Be who you are. Don't try to be something you are not.
Let's be proud of the fact we are the ONLY football program in the nation that does what we do. We are unique.
Recruit the top Christian athletes in the country.
Be a high-integrity program.
Invest to have top-tier facilities.
Win games.
Fill Williams Stadium.
Travel well.

[tyndal23]

What exactly is “Indy P5”? Outside of “Name It Claim It” how does a school officially obtain the Indy P5 definition? Where is that designation in college football? ND has a long and storied history which is the exception that proves the rule. Even still they’ve had to tie scheduling in with an ACC agreement.

Spending like a P5 doesn’t not make you a P5.
Recruiting P5 players doesn’t make you P5.
Playing P5 schools don’t make you a P5.

You make the case passionately from the LU stand point. But there is no basis in reality for your dreams to come true at the moment
You keep downplaying the difficulty of scheduling P5 games. Which will be amplified the first time LU upsets them.
You don’t explain how an arrangement with the ACC is good for the ACC. The closest you get is saying it’s better to play a low P5 than a high G5. That’s debatable but doesn’t address the point that a) LU isn’t a low P5 b) there is no Indy P5 clarification c) Why would the ACC tie it’s hands vis a vis scheduling by coming to an arrangement with another Independent school?

Purple - ACC requires 1 P5 game nonconference game from each member and specifically for those reasons they treat BYU as a P5. How is this not getting through to you? We leapfrog Every regional G5 in terms of scheduling for the ACC.

[Purple Haize]

LU is not BYU. By any measure. They are seen as P5 Light or G5 Plus depending on Conference based upon their Historical performance as I listed above.
You are correct that LU would leap frog every Regional G5 if it were a P5 but you don’t say how LU will be seen as a P5 and you do not respond to the counter arguments

[Jonathan Carone]

How many times are we going to have the exact same conversation?

[Chippy]

LU is not BYU. By any measure. They are seen as P5 Light or G5 Plus depending on Conference based upon their Historical performance as I listed above.
You are correct that LU would leap frog every Regional G5 if it were a P5 but you don’t say how LU will be seen as a P5 and you do not respond to the counter arguments

Am I missing something here? I thought P5 stood for "Power 5" conferences. I didn't know we were able to self-identify we were a P5 program while independent/ASUN affiliate, even if we did schedule 7-8 P5 teams. The AAC is not P5 by any stretch of the imagination. How can we be P5 without being in a P5 conference? That is why BYU is not considered a P5. Notre Dame is because of their affiliation with the ACC, history, TV package, et al.

I'm sure we can, in the future as an independent, schedule 11 games with true P5s and maybe go 1-10. But even then no one will consider us a P5. The goal should be, and I'm sure from the administration is, the best we can be, as stated in an earlier post, and be as unique and successful as BYU while focusing on the mission of the university in making champions for Christ. Look at the basketball team with their success and the exposure they bring to the university as they recruit the best players that fit within the mold of that mission even though they aren't 4 star/5 star athletes. I'm more than okay with that. My humble thoughts.

[Purple Haize]

LU is not BYU. By any measure. They are seen as P5 Light or G5 Plus depending on Conference based upon their Historical performance as I listed above.
You are correct that LU would leap frog every Regional G5 if it were a P5 but you don’t say how LU will be seen as a P5 and you do not respond to the counter arguments

Am I missing something here? I thought P5 stood for "Power 5" conferences. I didn't know we were able to self-identify we were a P5 program while independent/ASUN affiliate, even if we did schedule 7-8 P5 teams. The AAC is not P5 by any stretch of the imagination. How can we be P5 without being in a P5 conference? That is why BYU is not considered a P5. Notre Dame is because of their affiliation with the ACC, history, TV package, et al.

I'm sure we can, in the future as an independent, schedule 11 games with true P5s and maybe go 1-10. But even then no one will consider us a P5. The goal should be, and I'm sure from the administration is, the best we can be, as stated in an earlier post, and be as unique and successful as BYU while focusing on the mission of the university in making champions for Christ. Look at the basketball team with their success and the exposure they bring to the university as they recruit the best players that fit within the mold of that mission even though they aren't 4 star/5 star athletes. I'm more than okay with that. My humble thoughts.

That’s what I keep trying to get at. Other than just “Name It and Claim It” there’s no way LU is a P5 or the newly coined P5 Indy or even P5 equivalent
Apparently we are all missing something.

[Geraldos Mustache]

LU is not BYU. By any measure. They are seen as P5 Light or G5 Plus depending on Conference based upon their Historical performance as I listed above.
You are correct that LU would leap frog every Regional G5 if it were a P5 but you don’t say how LU will be seen as a P5 and you do not respond to the counter arguments

Am I missing something here? I thought P5 stood for "Power 5" conferences. I didn't know we were able to self-identify we were a P5 program while independent/ASUN affiliate, even if we did schedule 7-8 P5 teams. The AAC is not P5 by any stretch of the imagination. How can we be P5 without being in a P5 conference? That is why BYU is not considered a P5. Notre Dame is because of their affiliation with the ACC, history, TV package, et al.

I'm sure we can, in the future as an independent, schedule 11 games with true P5s and maybe go 1-10. But even then no one will consider us a P5. The goal should be, and I'm sure from the administration is, the best we can be, as stated in an earlier post, and be as unique and successful as BYU while focusing on the mission of the university in making champions for Christ. Look at the basketball team with their success and the exposure they bring to the university as they recruit the best players that fit within the mold of that mission even though they aren't 4 star/5 star athletes. I'm more than okay with that. My humble thoughts.

Well said, Chippy.

There is a large audience for what Liberty has to offer the College sports enthusiast. Everyone who attends a non-denominational church in America and likes College football & basketball should be rooting for LU just like most Catholics root for ND.

I comparatively explain Liberty's position by saying, "Liberty seeks to be for Evangelical Christians what ND is to Catholics and BYU is to Mormons". Everyone nods their head in agreement.
I also explain, "Liberty is the largest Christian university in the nation and seeks to be the flagship Christian university for Evangelical Christians". Everyone nods their head in agreement.

I think it is an awesome position to take in the marketplace. The potential audience for LU sports is HUGE.
How can LU market themselves to take advantage of this massive, untapped audience?

[Class of 20Something]

How many times are we going to have the exact same conversation?

Until the corporal punishment takes effect.

[ballcoach15]

Just schedule 11 FBS teams and 1 FCS team, and beat them, go to bowl games. Everything will take care of itself.

[Purple Haize]

How many times are we going to have the exact same conversation?

Until the corporal punishment takes effect.

Yeah. It’s gotten even beyond playing a “home” game at Jerry World in it’s ridiculousness. I’m out until he comes up with something concrete

[LUOrange]

"Or........

LU continues to build a consistent winner and fan support. Pull off some upsets to get people to take notice and thus position themselves to look good when the next shake ups roll around."
[/quote]
We have to have this in order to be considered for AAC or P5 membership or before we can be seriously be considered for P5 equivalency like BYU gets with most P5 conferences

While, I like the idea of the P5 Independent Declaration thing, I just don't see how it's practical. First of all, there's no better example of cultural elitism than college athletics, especially football and MBB. But as others have said, until we have a sustained success, football and MBB will have scheduling difficulties, and that won't change based upon our declaration. Heck, the declaration probably would actually backfire on us. I don't think they P-5-NCAA-College academic elites would appreciate such an announcement. Sure, the NCAA really didn't have much choice in allowing us into FBS, but they can't make schools schedule us.

I appreciate and agree with what Mustache and others have said, we need to be us. We need to be the character and Christ first driven college and college sports home for conservative Christians. For the most part, I think our all of our teams do that. That said, I don't ever want to be like these other schools, I want to beat them and earn their respect because that's part of our mission.

I do think we'll join the P5 ranks someday, but it'll probably be awhile. If we don't, it'll be because Jesus has returned and it won't matter anymore anyway. Just my thoughts.

[alabama24]

Picture this: Liberty vs. BYU every year in Dallas.

[thepostman]

Picture this. LU winning the Cure Bowl!