[Jonathan Carone]

“ Look oldflame. I've coached and assisted on a number of teams over my career.“

No words make me not read the rest of a post white like these.

[LibertyMan]

I will not be as gracious in disagreeing. Saying a team did not play to win is pretty close to the ultimate insult, and is most definitely not deserved here. A team playing just to be competitive takes a knee at the end of the first half deep in their own territory. They don't run a trick play and then continue to try to score til the clock runs out. A team playing just to be competitive does not try that onside kick. Your whole premise is ridiculous, and not supported by the facts. As far as what HF said about their players and ours, he told the truth. You don't build a program by blowing smoke up your player's butts. Too many other innaccuracies and contradictions to mention all of them, but one stands out. You say that BYU succeeded in stopping our running game (partially true) and then in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH you use our 128 rushing yards as evidence that the offense did their part in trying to put the blame on the defense. Laughable.

Agree 100%. I couldn't even finish reading the post in question. Probably the worst of all time on this board. SMH

We got oldflame and flameshaw. LOL You guys are comical! Have you read all the "all time" posts on this board, or just a few that you disagree with and SYH? Sorry to have invaded your private football man-cage. But I call it like I see it! Like it or not!

[LibertyMan]

“ Look oldflame. I've coached and assisted on a number of teams over my career.“

No words make me not read the rest of a post white like these.

I'm sorry sir but experience counts for something. Whether you value that or not is not really important. But it gives you an opportunity to make informed observations. I have read a few posts here where others referenced their football experience. Did you respond to them the same way, or just this time? Don't be intimidated by new knowledge coming to the board that doesn't say what you want to hear. That's quite childish behavior! Move on!

[jinxy]

Welcome to the board. I land somewhere in the middle. I think freeze has has probably beaten the fcs talent point a bit too much. Certainly fine to say it but every week does get a bit tiring. The biggest problem is what do the players think of it. You saw in another thread tillmons relatives werent crazy about it. I did like that gill didnt toss that around though we all knew it.

However i think freeze did play to win and thought we had a shot in several of these games. The d was so bad in the rutgers game and 3 quarters of byu that he had to do things outside the box. Gill did way worse things last year like the go for it on 4th on our own 12 at uva last year late 3rd qtr. im sure in the locker room hes talking up that they can win but the players sometimes hear the press conferences too.

[SumItUp]

HCHF is good at coachspeak.

[Jonathan Carone]

“ Look oldflame. I've coached and assisted on a number of teams over my career.“

No words make me not read the rest of a post white like these.

I'm sorry sir but experience counts for something. Whether you value that or not is not really important. But it gives you an opportunity to make informed observations. I have read a few posts here where others referenced their football experience. Did you respond to them the same way, or just this time? Don't be intimidated by new knowledge coming to the board that doesn't say what you want to hear. That's quite childish behavior! Move on!

I value experience. I just don't like reading Message Board Guy who comes in touting experience as if he's suddenly smarter than everyone else who's been here for a decade.

[olldflame]

I will not be as gracious in disagreeing. Saying a team did not play to win is pretty close to the ultimate insult, and is most definitely not deserved here. A team playing just to be competitive takes a knee at the end of the first half deep in their own territory. They don't run a trick play and then continue to try to score til the clock runs out. A team playing just to be competitive does not try that onside kick. Your whole premise is ridiculous, and not supported by the facts. As far as what HF said about their players and ours, he told the truth. You don't build a program by blowing smoke up your player's butts. Too many other innaccuracies and contradictions to mention all of them, but one stands out. You say that BYU succeeded in stopping our running game (partially true) and then in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH you use our 128 rushing yards as evidence that the offense did their part in trying to put the blame on the defense. Laughable.

Look oldflame. I've coached and assisted on a number of teams over my career. One of the more memorable experiences was at Army. What impressed me most of all with the Coach is that although we never had the best talent or biggest players, he always tell the kids "No matter how big our opponent, we are going to go in there and try to tear their heads off and they are going to know they have been in a fight!" You also don't build a program by accentuating your players weaknesses why talking up the other teams strengths. Isn't this why the Israelites circled the mountains for 40 years? I can tell you BYU coaches were in fear of having a lot more than 128 yards rushing against them. Sorry...not a contradiction!

The fact that you can't see that the defense lost this game is what's really "Laughable!" I didn't say the team did not play to win. Those are your words! I said the Coaches coached to be competitive and not to win! So all of your comments about the "team" are misguided. The "taking a knee" part is extremely laughable! And shows that you don't have a clue about how to recognize the difference between coaching to be competitive and coaching like you believe your team will win the game! Every coach is guilty of this at some point in their career. And often more than once. So, if you know anything at all about football, then act like it and stop trying to be "Spicey!" LOL

I don't buy the "moral victory" stuff! Calling an on-side kick in the third quarter down only 7 is not a winning strategy. It's a panic move and a bad call. The percentage of successful on-side kicks in FBS football is extremely LOW! Why risk it? It completely take the momentum away from the team and makes their work twice as hard! You and I have seen too many teams lose games this way!

Don't get me wrong oldflame, I 100% support HCHF. I just think that he has not completely got his "mojo" back yet. I just thinks that he feels he had to be extremely conservative this season and that's just not his style. This has caused him to make decisions in games that he himself have said on occasion, were not the best calls! I'm confident that he will get it by year 2 with recruiting more talent. He is operating in unfamiliar territory. But all we are doing here is providing our observations regarding year 1.

I like your passion...stay SPICEY!

I appreciate your response LibertyMan.

Apparently you misread me in thinking that I said or implied that the defense was not responsible for this loss. While the offense made some key mistakes, what they accomplished against a borderline P5 team was IMHO impressive. Clearly our inability to get the Cougar offense off the field, especially on 3rd and long, was key.

One of the things I respect most about HF is the honesty and transparency he brings to the job. Some may think he is not supportive enough of his players in public. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. The team motto "tougher together" comes to mind. I believe a lot of that comes through "tough love" on the part of the coach. It's a process. I'm sure they are getting plenty of love and support out of the spotlight.

Specifically in regard to the onside kick, I couldn't disagree more. First of all, the blanket assertion that the onside kick is a very low % play is misleading. The overall stat is vastly skewed by the fact that the vast majority are attempted in obvious end-game situations where the receiver has their "hands team" in the game and absolutely knows it is coming. This was not that. Over half of "surprise" onside kicks (which this CLEARLY was) are recovered. Here is an article about coaching philosophy regarding onside kicks since the implementation of the new kickoff rules:

https://gazette.com/sports/onside-kick- ... 79f12.html

Having established that we are in agreement concerning our defensive struggles, I find it difficult to support your allegation that it was foolish and desperate. We had just scored (obviously ) and I believe HF saw it as an opportunity to get the ball back and continue that momentum rather than turn it over to an offense we were struggling to stop. It was an aggressive move, which carried a field position cost if unsuccessful, but he thought it was worth it. IMHO it is open house to question his JUDGEMENT there, but not his MOTIVE. The other component is EXECUTION, which was clearly lacking.

I have to say that I am with Carone when it comes to members of this board citing their coaching experience as evidence they are right. I will not hesitate to say that my coaching experience is limited to AWANA Olympics. The opinions of those who have far more and at a higher level deserve to be given due respect, but they are still opinions. Not necessarily putting you in this category, but it really irks me when members of this board feel that because they have coached, their opinions are facts.

[olldflame]

HCHF is good at coachspeak.

He knows how and when to use it rather than just spouting Bull-Durham-esque cliches.

(I was going to post a youtube clip here, but I forgot how NSFW it was.)

[Rubicon]

I figure many here would find this interesting from a former BYU football player --- in light of who and what Liberty is (including Liberty's honor code, the "Liberty Way"), what Liberty's aspirations are, what Liberty's potential is (including as a missionary tool), etc.

I don't see eye-to-eye with him on everything, but I thought his thoughts and experiences are interesting. I think that Liberty is prepared to invest **a lot** more money into building its football program into a power than BYU is, and while I would love for BYU to do better as an independent, I also don't think that football is the be all and end all in the eternal scheme of things. But, doing well against national powers (and taking care of business against teams you're supposed to beat) is also a great way to promote those "eternal scheme of things" things through exposure, too.

I see Liberty as much more of an analogue to BYU than nominally religious schools (Baylor, SMU, TCU, Boston College, etc.). Even Notre Dame is getting away from its Catholic moorings and undergoing mission creep, I think.

https://byuhasadisease.wordpress.com/20 ... a2KLzWwS8Q

ETA: I also don't think the sky is falling with BYU sports. I think we are capable of doing a lot better than we've done under Sitake (football) and Rose (retired basketball) with the athletes we're able to get (honor code --- Mormon or non-Mormon, high academic standards, etc.). I think our woes, such as they've been, are directly related to coaching, so my outlook isn't as dismal as Stevenson's in this post.

[tyndal23]

Good article. Thanks for sharing. I have been arguing that if LU sold out to P5 scheduling like BYU has this year ( for the most part ) LU would have a decided advantage over BYU in recruiting based on number of evangelical and or conservative families - silent majority who see clear divide lines in left colleges vs LU - I see as a major recruiting tool not hindrance. However - it must be done at P5 equivalent level - any kid with NFL aspirations goes P5 over G5 regardless of the rest of it ( with rare exceptions ). LU can be a national recruiting draw similar to BYU and have the ability to play every P5 conference year in and year out and schedule harder than ND does annually if it so chooses and has the resources and will to do that. It would take a 10 year commitment of paying dramatically higher for home games and 1 for 1 matchups that normally wouldn’t happen but we are the only institution in a unique position to do that in my opinion. I believe if JR laid that out as a plan, donors would assist in a big way to offset running the football program as a loss for a decade. Coaching stability, recruiting levels, attendance - all rapidly rise - otherwise it is a yo yo of success and coaching carousel.

[Rubicon]

Good article. Thanks for sharing. I have been arguing that if LU sold out to P5 scheduling like BYU has this year ( for the most part ) LU would have a decided advantage over BYU in recruiting based on number of evangelical and or conservative families - silent majority who see clear divide lines in left colleges vs LU - I see as a major recruiting tool not hindrance.

Absolutely. Especially because the nominal religious schools are completely leftist and secular now. If Liberty can position itself as a bona fide competitive sports school --- that takes a religious stand and walks the walk --- then, I think there will be a snowball effect with conservative Christians wanting to go there. Including, as you mention, athletes who want that. And, as you indicate, there is both supply and demand for those types of students and athletes.

However - it must be done at P5 equivalent level - any kid with NFL aspirations goes P5 over G5 regardless of the rest of it ( with rare exceptions ).

Increasingly true now. BYU used to be better at producing NFL players, so they were kind of an anomaly in that LDS athletes (and some non-Mormons) with NFL aspirations gladly chose BYU knowing that their chances were pretty good. For the most part, though, you're right --- especially now.

The joker in the deck is the missions. While schools often complain that it gives BYU a competitive advantage to have much older athletes, the reality is that the mission system is extremely hard to manage with players. Not only returning missionaries who are out of shape (contrary to popular belief, their opportunities to work out are extremely limited. They are there to do missionary work, and have very limited time to exercise or play sports. They do have one day a week, and time in the morning, but they aren't lifting weights). The bigger challenge is outlook and attitude upon return. Many get married, start their families, and have matured a lot, and while they are still good athletes, the killer sports instinct takes a back seat to new perspective and new priorities. And, entering the NFL draft as a 24/25 year old or older sets the clock ticking on a sports career.

LU can be a national recruiting draw similar to BYU and have the ability to play every P5 conference year in and year out and schedule harder than ND does annually if it so chooses and has the resources and will to do that. It would take a 10 year commitment of paying dramatically higher for home games and 1 for 1 matchups that normally wouldn’t happen but we are the only institution in a unique position to do that in my opinion. I believe if JR laid that out as a plan, donors would assist in a big way to offset running the football program as a loss for a decade. Coaching stability, recruiting levels, attendance - all rapidly rise - otherwise it is a yo yo of success and coaching carousel.

Agreed. Don't even get me started with Notre Dame's schedule. Yes, they play a couple of tough games a year, but they have far more easy games --- and, they almost never play on the road (I can't remember the last season there wasn't a huge home-away disparity). And, they owe BYU two games in Provo that they're never going to make good on. We should insist on the million dollar breach of contract penalty, but they would never schedule us again. But, if we're only ever going to play them on a 2-1 basis in South Bend (and they'll pull the return game away, like Lucy with the football), I'm not sure I care.

Our problem in independence has been November scheduling. We have front-loaded really difficult schedules, but November usually leaves a lot to be desired. Conference teams are in the thick of their schedules then and don't have open dates to schedule.

The biggest advice I could give Liberty and other ambitious independents would be: depth, depth, depth! Injuries take their toll with a hard independent schedule, so you can never have too many horses in the stable.

[tyndal23]

I have proposed a BYU Liberty game in Dallas thanksgiving weekend ( or preferably day ) to save both teams such a long travel and create an annual national tv tradition. Saves 2500 mile trip every other year for both schools and gets us birth in to TX recruiting. I have read several BYU posts lamenting loss of TCU - would this be supported from BYU fans / AD?

[Rubicon]

I have proposed a BYU Liberty game in Dallas thanksgiving weekend ( or preferably day ) to save both teams such a long travel and create an annual national tv tradition. Saves 2500 mile trip every other year for both schools and gets us both into TX recruiting. I have read several BYU posts lamenting loss of TCU - would this be supported from BYU fans / AD?

I think it absolutely would be supported by both fans and the AD --- especially because it would be an automatic November game. November is the hardest month for us to schedule in, and we end up with FCS schools or other lower-interest matchups.

Ignorant/unknowledgeable BYU fans know who Liberty is now. These fans were surprised that the game wasn't a blowout. Those of us who follow things knew about Liberty's passing game, Hugh Freeze's impact, etc. Wins against VT, So. Miss, Syracuse, and NC State next year would help Liberty get on the map as well. Not that the other games aren't important, too; but these are teams that are nationally a little more highly-regarded. Liberty will get better and better as Freeze recruits, assuming Liberty can keep him there.

[Rubicon]

One big difference between Liberty and BYU is the ability to monopolize elite athletes from its niches. BYU doesn't have a lock on Mormon athletes now; the best of the best often choose to go to P5 programs. But, it can count on church membership to be a big factor, even when it loses out to elite programs. While people think that BYU fans travel well, in reality, the large turnout is due to local Mormons coming to games, not to Utah Mormons traveling all over the place.

In Liberty's case, I don't think that Liberty is the de facto default school for Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists (Presbyterians, too?). Or that local Protestants would flock to Liberty away games the same way that Mormons go to BYU games. If Liberty can get to that point, then man, watch out!

[Cider Jim]

While people think that BYU fans travel well, in reality, the large turnout is due to LOCAL Mormons coming to games, not to Utah Mormons traveling all over the place.

In Liberty's case, I don't think that Liberty is the de facto default school for Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists (Presbyterians, too?). Or that local Protestants would flock to Liberty away games the same way that Mormons go to BYU games.

That's an excellent point that most of us probably haven't considered. Thanks for sharing your wise insights!

[tyndal23]

No, we won’t have good P5 level crowds even at home due to fan base spread out and how hard LU is to get to and not much local support - thanksgiving makes sense because LU student body is gone and it is awful environment with no students there. I would prefer LU BYU home and home every year but if BYU is hesitant that Thanksgiving day game much closer when both teams have to travel a lot each year might be appealing and worth some TV $ and national exposure - only 1 FBS game scheduled this thanksgiving.

[Rubicon]

No, we won’t have good P5 level crowds even at home due to fan base spread out and how hard LU is to get to and not much local support - thanksgiving makes sense because LU student body is gone and it is awful environment with no students there. I would prefer LU BYU home and home every year but if BYU is hesitant that Thanksgiving day game much closer when both teams have to travel a lot each year might be appealing and worth some TV $ and national exposure - only 1 FBS game scheduled this thanksgiving.

I would be all for home and homes in November (Thanksgiving day, or other Saturdays). We've played in Jerryworld in Dallas a couple of times (the upset of Oklahoma). My first (and so far, only) game in an NFL stadium was BYU against Arizona. It was an amazing atmosphere; I can only imagine what Jerryworld would be like.

Does Liberty have students from all over the country, or primarily nearby in Virginia? At BYU, a lot of students are still on campus during Thanksgiving. I couldn't go home to Chicago just for Thanksgiving . . . For Christmas break, several of us Midwesterners pooled money and chartered a bus to go home and back for Christmas.

[tyndal23]

Vast majority of LU students live more than 4 hours away and nationwide but not enough to be a good crowd at Jerry Wold ( or anywhere ) - it would be 98 percent BYU fans. Only makes sense for LU if BYU insists on 2 for 1 home and homes or doesn’t want to schedule us regularly due to distance. The tv ad rev would be higher than all of LU season combined for that 1 game however. If both schools saw the value in an annual rivalry but hate the travel aspect and long term vision of what that game could turn in to with a national audience / tradition and could be viewed as a “ bowl” type for their wealthier fans plus the recruiting aspect in Dallas Metro - we are really the only 2 schools that could pull that off due to flexibility that week of the year.

[Rubicon]

BYU wouldn't insist on a 2-1. They'd better not --- that's how the P5 programs usually treat us (sometimes we get home and home offers).

Liberty is still a new university, D1 sports-wise, so it might take time to build a national brand. But, nothing succeeds like success. BYU was an awful football doormat most of its existence, until Coach Tommy Hudspeth (winning seasons, bowl games). Until the LaVell Edwards era, though, we didn't really have any national sports fans to speak of (even within the church) . That's when our national following for football among church members took off. Basketball was a different story. We had a national following well before then in basketball.

I think Liberty is poised to have a faster rise, potentially, because of its investment into the program, and Hugh Freeze. The challenge will be keeping him there to build the program (hopefully he stays for a long time). I would imagine that the Protestant families who feed into Liberty are all over the map in terms of fandom, and it would be neat to see that snowball over to Liberty once it starts making noise among the big programs.