[Yacht Rock]

My issue is when we put all the focus on the woman making the change and never, ever, ever, ever, ever bring up the fact that guys need to control their thoughts better than they do. I'm all for both approaches, but until someone mentions both of them together, I'm going to continue bring up the other side as well.

You're not wrong. I think the reason one gets mentioned more than the other is because the clothing issue can be physically observed and the thought issue is private, unless the person not controlling their thoughts makes it observable through actions such as comments, catcalls, etc.

In the end, these are all heart issues and are best addressed through discipleship and relationship building, not through a dress code at a football game of all places.

[Jonathan Carone]

Fact
It is a lot easier for a Christian young lady to control her wardrobe and make some relatively modest choices when she gets dressed than it is for an 18-23 year old male to control his thoughts when she chooses to put on something revealing because it´s ¨cute¨.

And because it’s easier to do that, we’ve created a culture where all responsibility falls to the woman. There’s no personal responsibility with Christian men. Bouncing your eyes or looking a different direction have become jokes within the Christian community and we’ve fallen back to saying wearing short shorts is the equivalent of dressing like someone who sells their body for sex.

[Jonathan Carone]

In the end, these are all heart issues and are best addressed through discipleship and relationship building, not through a dress code at a football game of all places.

Agreed! The fastest way to turn a woman away from Jesus is by judging what she wears to a football game and say she’s dressed like a slut.

A dress code is behavior modification and the second that student visits her friends at a state school she is going to dress like any other 21-year-old girl unless she’s been disciples by another woman who has taught her the Biblical basis for modesty.

[olldflame]

I think it is wonderful and appropriate for mature Christian women to disciple their sisters, but that can be done in the context of some basic guide lines on the part of the school.

¨Behavior modification¨? You´ve got to be kidding me Jon. You´ve gone off the deep end of the too cool for school pool.

[ballcoach15]

I once heard that it is not a sin for a girl to dress sexy, but it is a sin for a guy to look at her with sexual thoughts on his mind.

[olldflame]

I once heard that it is not a sin for a girl to dress sexy, but it is a sin for a guy to look at her with sexual thoughts on his mind.

Just because you heard it somewhere makes it true? The second part is biblical. Saying it is never a sin for a woman to dress provocativly is not. Protestations that young women are just dressing that way because of fashion or to impress their female friends are either extremely naive or flat out . Might be true in some cases, but in a lot of others it is done intentionally to entice, or is a result of self-esteem issues which cause them to seek attention/approval in that way.

[Jonathan Carone]

If the idea of behavior modification vs Gospel transformation is too cool for school then someone needs to tell Liberty’s seminary instructors to stop teaching about it.

[olldflame]

If the idea of behavior modification vs Gospel transformation is too cool for school then someone needs to tell Liberty’s seminary instructors to stop teaching about it.

You are confusing having rules and guidelines with behavior mod. They are not the same. If our seminary instructors are saying they are, I think that needs to be looked into. The idea that having rules cannot be a part of Gospel transformation is ludicrus. So, is it your position that anything that is not illegal should be acceptable at Liberty University?

[jbock13]

Just tell them not to dress like a Florida Georgia Line music video. Good luck!

[Jonathan Carone]

I’m of the mindset that guardrails are more effective than hard fast behavioral rules, especially with adults. That’s why I don’t mind gender segregated dorms and campus being dry. It’s a protection mechanism to keep people from going off the deep end.

I’m not a fan of 21-year-olds off campus not being allowed to drink alcohol. I’m not a fan of a campus wide dress code (class dress is a different discussion). I don’t think 19-year-olds should be forced to make their bed. I don’t think forced prayer groups are effective.

While I love Liberty, after being in ministry and watching students go off to Christian schools with behavioral based rules, I’ve seen more students struggle and move away from their faith than I have thrive within their faith. I know that’s anecdotal but it’s also impacted by the experience of many of my friends and myself as well.

[LUDad]

I played club rugby for eight years in my 20's. Many, or should I say most, of the songs we sang in the parties after the matches were filthy. I accepted Christ and was convicted that I should no longer play because of the drinking and the parties after the matches. I became upset when I begin hearing the tunes of many songs of the faith. How dare the rugby clubs take these sacred tunes and violate them by adapting them with their foul language!

It was only later, when I became a more mature Christian that I discovered that it was Luther and other giants of the faith who co-opted the barroom tunes of that day by adding the gospel to those tunes.

The question is, how can we co-opt today's foul music?

[amar0819]

I agree the music has gone another level...My girlfriend and I said the exact same thing as we sat in the stands...BUT was there foul language no...the mask off song had COMPLETELY different lyrics by the way, I know because I wasn't able to sing along with the normal lyrics.#GymTunes...I live in Charlotte and think Liberty did the same thing the Hornets do. Make it a family friendly environment. My take on the music is that I sat on the baptist side and was watching the players during it and they all were getting pumped up and even dancing to it. Do I think that is an edge? 100% yes! I remember when I was a walk-on standing on the sidelines and "Jason Derulo whatcha say" came on at least 5 times during the games players hated it! At the end of the day I believe the music is for both the team and the fans. I saw kids all around me dancing and having a fabulous time with their parents as well. All and all hats off to Liberty sound crew for finding a middle with secular music. As far as the dress code...YES it has gotten worse then probably when all of us have gone there...news flash its 2018...if girls at a liberty football game are tempting you for God's sake dont walk into a wallmart after midnight! My girlfriend isnt the biggest football fan and she and I had one of the best times weve ever had at a football game together. GREAT JOB LIBERTY

[JK37]

Jon,

I absolutely agree that in the church, there has been far too much made of rules, and not enough made of discipleship. I call that teaching the “Why of the Rule”. Growing up in an IFB church (think, Sly’s buddy Jack Hyles), I too experienced youth group member after member go off to all sorts colleges, and fall completely away from the faith. They were ill-equipped for the freedom they were given. It breaks the heart.

I also agree that, in the example we’re discussing of improper female attire, there should be ewual parts discipleship and rule enforcement of the woman and discipleship of the man. (I don’t think there can legitimately be a rule regarding someone’s thought.) The reason we hear more directed at the woman is absolutely because that’s easier. But she is still responsible. If she doesn’t know better, fine. I hope those around her can gracefully show her WHY improper dress is improper. But once she knows better....

[thepostman]

This thread has been awesome. As is often the case, enough rope has been laid for people to hang themselves, which IMO has been done in particularly eye opening fashion.

Again, it really speaks to just how far the pendulum has swung in the Church. I can’t wait for it to swing back sometime before I go to be with Jesus.

This is the 2nd time you have posted something similar to this in this thread. Could you please explain further instead of vague statements? It makes it hard to understand what you exactly trying to communicate. I think i have an idea but it has already been seen in this thread that I sometimes read too much into what you write. So clarity would be appreciated. If you don't want to give clarity then that is your call but hopefully you do clear things up a bit because I really dont think anybody has been blatantly wrong in this thread but we have seen different ways in which people feel these issues need to be addressed.

[ballcoach15]

Old flame, just because I heard someone say something DOES NOT mean it is true, nor do I believe everything I hear.

[JK37]

I had an illuminating conversation on this topic tonight.

For me, it boils down to this: rules without relationship lead to rebellion. So how does an entity like a university develop genuine relationship with the students upon whom they are placing the rules?

[Purple Haize]

It was me ballcoach. I wear shorts to church sometimes.

How short are we talking.....

[thepostman]

Postman,
I’m not sure there is a ton to clarify to be honest. There have just been quite a few statements in this thread that are illuminating to where people stand on some current issues in church and culture.

Blatantly wrong? I suppose that all revolves around who you ask.

So why say anything if you aren't going to explain yourself?

[Purple Haize]

Old flame, just because I heard someone say something DOES NOT mean it is true, nor do I believe everything I hear.

You heard it from one of your #Sources didn’t you?

[TH Spangler]

Music question? I noticed while watching games on TV I hear the same songs played throughout the NCAA . Does the NCAA pay usage royalties and teams work off a list?

[ballcoach15]

That's a good question.

But I would substitute "noise" for "music".

[Purple Haize]

That's a good question.

But I would substitute "noise" for "music".

There ya go ballcoach. Way to get in the Spirit of things

[youtube]kl1hgXfX5-U[/youtube]

[JK37]

NCAA doesn’t circulate a playlist. It can’t, and it never would. Totally up to the hosts.

[olldflame]

One possible explanation for the similarities is that schools may be outsourcing the selection of the music to a service.

[Yacht Rock]

Or, just like in many other cases, when there is popular music to play at a sporting event, it is commonly found among other sporting events.