[LUDad]

I trust Ian if he's allowed to make the decision himself.

1. Even if his choice is Gill?
2. Even if his choice is someone who turned a desolate program into a national championship contender, someone who he believes was railroaded?

[Class of 20Something]

I would wager most of us won't mind the salary in hindsight if we make the cure bowl this season.

We are on the treadmill of mediocrity. He may get us to a bowl game occasionally (or even this year), but we've seen he’s going to do stupid stuff that makes no sense whatsoever. We will never consistently be more than average with him. His career has proven that's who he is. So, in the most Typical Liberty thing ever, he'll probably roll out 6-7 wins this year and force us to make a decision to either give him an extension or fire the coach who exceeded expectations in our first FBS season followed by underwhelming seasons the next two years. Then we'll be mediocre and exceed our average expectations again and he'll get another extensions and the treadmill will keep going.

Wasn't one of the reasons half of us justified the FBS move was having 6-7 win seasons being acceptable? If we get 6 wins this year and 7 in '19 and' 20 I'm fine with keeping Gill. As Ian has said, progress is paramount. Going from 6-5 in the Big South to 6-6 as an FBS school is a Massive marker of progress. Yes, there are bone headed GameDay decisions made but Ian will have a tough time finding a "sure thing" coach near our budget that both fits and Wants to be part of our culture.

On how restricted our recruiting is, listened to David Shaw(Stanford HC) talking about how there are few academic waivers for his program and he prefers it that way. He said the academics separate the wheat from the chaff and he believes recruiting is easier because of it. Contrasted by Bronco in Charlottesville telling the university they will never succeed in football without more waivers.

I hope whomever is here in 2019 believes our structure is an advantage not a burden.

[Cider Jim]

If we get 6 wins this year and 7 in '19 and' 20 I'm fine with keeping Gill. As Ian has said, progress is paramount. Going from 6-5 in the Big South to 6-6 as an FBS school is a Massive marker of progress.

TRUTH. Finally a voice of reason.

We're not there yet, but with 2 FBS wins already, 2 upcoming games against NMSU, and 2 more against FCS schools, 6-6 could happen this year.

And this is with using mostly players who were FCS last year, a bunch of jucos, and only 2 FBS true freshmen on defense--Lewis & Scruggs.

[Jonathan Carone]

I trust Ian if he's allowed to make the decision himself.

1. Even if his choice is Gill?
2. Even if his choice is someone who turned a desolate program into a national championship contender, someone who he believes was railroaded?

I’d argue you can trust someone and still disagree with some of their decisions. It’s also possible for someone to do something so egregious that it makes you lose your trust in them.

I’d disagree with the first but still trust Ian was good at his job.

I’d lose my trust in him with the second.

[alabama24]

Everyone should be very pleased if we get to six wins.

[Jonathan Carone]

Wasn't one of the reasons half of us justified the FBS move was having 6-7 win seasons being acceptable?

Some said that, yes.

I wasn’t one of them.

It was (and is) my belief that if we are going to do something, our goal should be to be successful. 6-7 win seasons routinely does not fit my definition of successful. I believe our goal should be to get to where we are winning 8 games per year with the occasional push higher. If we don’t believe this staff can get us to that point routinely (and I don’t) then we can’t give them an extension after this year.

We are so quick to quote Doc and his vision for what he wanted out of our football program but we forget Doc often said “if it’s Christian, it ought to be better.” Turner Gill has made roughly $5 million over the last seven years while at Liberty. I don’t think it’s a prudent investment to invest $5 million more over the next five years. It has nothing to do with him as a person or him as a Christian but everything to do with thinking our football program can do better.

[ALAFlamesFan]

I agree that 6 wins this year would be a tremendous accomplishment. I agree with being cautious with contract extensions with this staff. I am watching recruiting. What can we attract? The facilities are there. What can the staff do? We appear to be behind this year. I will be interested to see how we close.

Part of me really feels like we have a clear view of the ceiling this staff has. The other part feels like the move to FBS is a gamechanger for the staff. We are looking for high caliber people as well as talent. Before many would overlook us because of FCS. Now we give them the bih stage AND a christian environment. I feel like we might see a couple of bigtime talents come our way the next few years which could change our national perception in a hurry.
I am not convinced that won't happen with a big performance by AGG or Buckshot against AU.

[tyndal23]

I take the view that you evaluate Gill on FBS performance only and throw out the FCS history. It is dramatically different and I would have no problem if the decision was made at the time of FBS and to stick with Gill to was to give him at least 3-4 years. Again, $ isn’t an issue - If Ian asks Jerry for $2-4 million a year for a HC then he wil get it whenever he feels it is time. ( if we are truly wanting to get to BYU/ND level ) 7-5 this year is actually doable with a sweep of NM schools, UMASS and 2 FCS - a 6-6 record next year would probably be more impressive with the schedule. I am judging based on eye ball test and product we are putting on the field - really impressed with our level of athletes - even Army and N Texas we weren’t run off the field or blown off the ball - even though the scores don’t show it. We are 3 players away on D from being very good and we aren’t missing by much anywhere on the offense. Offense has stalled out in both our losses but moving the ball up and down the field, left our D in bad situations and on the field way too long ( and yes our D looked horrific 1st 2 drives in 2nd half / post rain delay N TX, gassed 4 qtr against Army and Cramps 2nd half NM ). I don’t think our coordinators are awful, I actually think they are pretty good. There aren’t too many fan bases in love with both coordinators at any school. Recruiting will be key and if Gill can do that and keep building a solid base - I don’t have any problem, if recruiting dries up and he starts losing games we should win and fans start dwindling then you have to move quick - but I don’t think he is going to drive the bus off the cliff but rather build a decent enough base that when/if the time comes next coach can take next step without rebuilding from ground up. 2020 could be a rough year after all these seniors go, but we surprisingly have a pretty good ball club that no one is taking lightly for a 2nd year transition club. I think the smartest $ should be an obscene recruiting marketing budget / personnel for nationwide recruiting. 2020 FOC and stadium upgrades will all be in place to show off for that class.

[Jonathan Carone]

I don't think getting talent to Liberty is the problem. We've always gotten talent to Liberty. Even Ken Karcher had some really good players here.

The problem is what we do with them once they get here.

As for our record this year, we're getting blinded by wins and not looking at who we play.

If you don’t count the two wins this year, our 18 wins the last three years have been agains teams that are a combined 75-128. Their average record is 4-7. Only five of the 18 wins are against a team with a winning record.

If you look at the projected records (ESPN FPI) of our wins this year, both ODU and New Mexico are projected to go 4-8.

Looking at the teams we'd need to beat in order to get to 6-7 wins, New Mexico State is projected to go 3-9 while UMass is projected to go 4-8.

At this point we know our team is really good at beating 4-7 teams. What we haven't shown we're good at is beating teams that are actually good.

I'm much more interested in how we play against Troy and UVA than I am beating NMSU twice. If we can show improvement in those games and actually compete the entire game (unlike Army and North Texas) then I will be impressed.

[Class of 20Something]

I don't think getting talent to Liberty is the problem. We've always gotten talent to Liberty. Even Ken Karcher had some really good players here.

The problem is what we do with them once they get here.

As for our record this year, we're getting blinded by wins and not looking at who we play.

If you don’t count the two wins this year, our 18 wins the last three years have been agains teams that are a combined 75-128. Their average record is 4-7. Only five of the 18 wins are against a team with a winning record.

If you look at the projected records (ESPN FPI) of our wins this year, both ODU and New Mexico are projected to go 4-8.

Looking at the teams we'd need to beat in order to get to 6-7 wins, New Mexico State is projected to go 3-9 while UMass is projected to go 4-8.

At this point we know our team is really good at beating 4-7 teams. What we haven't shown we're good at is beating teams that are actually good.

I'm much more interested in how we play against Troy and UVA than I am beating NMSU twice. If we can show improvement in those games and actually compete the entire game (unlike Army and North Texas) then I will be impressed.

If there is anything you have been consistent on it is comparing elite G5 programs to the bottom of the Big South.

Not a single one of those opponents this year plays more than one FCS game. Those 4-8 and 3-9 FBS records are counting wins against FBS programs. We have defeated teams that have beat FBS teams this season.

The Presby and GW games should be compared to our FCS game(s) and NMSU. How would Kennesaw State fare against ODU or UNM?

This football team has made some massive strides, but I refuse to be a fan dissatisfied unless we are Bama.

Is 6-6 the long term goal? No. But this year, 6-6 is more than fine.

[jinxy]

Now were just moving the goal line to define a successful season to whatever we feel like. Right before the season it was will win more than 1 fbs game. Now its were beating scrubs and not uva auburn north texas army. Cmon, 6 and 6 this year would be a huge accomplishment no matter who the 6 wins are.

Now in 2 or 3 years yeah i would expect more.

And i thought i was a gill hater. I must be reasonable ha

Btw it wouldnt surprise me if we revert back and wet the bed and only win the 2 remaining fcs games which would put me right on the fire gill track again with the past results.

[Cider Jim]

Beating average to bad FBS teams is still much better than beating Big South teams.

[flamehunter]

Beating average to bad FBS teams is still much better than beating Big South teams.

Or losing to Big South teams.

[thepostman]

We all knew going into this season if we won 6+ games somehow Gill would still have a job. I still dont think we will win 6 games but if we do I will give this staff credit for exceeding expectations that's for sure.

I'm not a Gill fan and think we can do better but if we win 6+ games (a big IF) I think all of us Gill haters will be forced to give him some credit.

[Jonathan Carone]

Now were just moving the goal line to define a successful season to whatever we feel like. Right before the season it was will win more than 1 fbs game. Now its were beating scrubs and not uva auburn north texas army. Cmon, 6 and 6 this year would be a huge accomplishment no matter who the 6 wins are.

Now in 2 or 3 years yeah i would expect more.

And i thought i was a gill hater. I must be reasonable ha

Btw it wouldnt surprise me if we revert back and wet the bed and only win the 2 remaining fcs games which would put me right on the fire gill track again with the past results.

Let me back up. Six wins this year is a great result for this year. There's absolutely no denying that. I don't want anyone to think that I don't think that is a remarkable accomplishment for the season.

Where I did a bad job communicating was the context of my argument. I was looking towards the next 2-4 years. Here's my thought process:

If Gill is signed through 2019, then we are at a point this offseason where we have to determine if 6-6 this year is worth investing in this staff through 2022.

Beating 4-8 teams and playing bad against the good teams doesn't give me that confidence. If we can beat those bad teams and actually look good against Troy and UVA (even if we lose by 20+) then that will be progress and make me consider things could be different moving forward. If all we do is continue to beat on bad teams and then look inept against good ones, then I definitely think a change is still needed, regardless of us winning six games this year.

[jinxy]

I agree on all that. I dont believe he or his staff are the long term answers. However if he can get to at least 5 i would consider it. I would not extend him beyond a year at a time. If they leave so what. We need to see more before letting them work year to year. Thats all my point is. If it expires this year give them one year deal if they warrant it. If they dont anr 1 or 2 leave so what. The only way i would give them more than 1 year is if like u said we win 6 or 7 and look darn competitive against uva and troy.

Btw. Go back and look at frank beamers record around this time in his vt tenure. Not apples to apples but he turned it on right about now when their program started investing in facilities etc. big difference is bud foster and we dont have one. But that is One example of a staff taking an over extended opportunity and making use of it.

[LUDad]

I agree on all that. I dont believe he or his staff are the long term answers. However if he can get to at least 5 i would consider it. I would not extend him beyond a year at a time. If they leave so what. We need to see more before letting them work year to year. Thats all my point is. If it expires this year give them one year deal if they warrant it. If they dont anr 1 or 2 leave so what. The only way i would give them more than 1 year is if like u said we win 6 or 7 and look darn competitive against uva and troy.

Btw. Go back and look at frank beamers record around this time in his vt tenure. Not apples to apples but he turned it on right about now when their program started investing in facilities etc. big difference is bud foster and we dont have one. But that is One example of a staff taking an over extended opportunity and making use of it.

Couldn't resist replying. I worked with Bill Foster (Bud's dad) a number of years before he passed away. He was an outstanding guy. Good salesman too.

[alabama24]

Compromise: give him a raise, but not an extension.

[JK37]

Most woyls forgo the raise for the extension. So it’s not a compromise to which he would agree.

HCTG is a proud man. He’s not going to take any of the options I’ve seen here. If he gets 6 wins this season, it’s going to be a long, hard negotiation. And because he’s been given so much up to this point, it puts the admin at a weak starting point - I think.

[ALAFlamesFan]

Proud or not the question is one of leverage. If he wins and recruiting is strong he deserves an extension but he is already paid well here. Who is going to offer him a better situation? I don't anticipate a bidding war for his services after this year even if we get 7 or 8 wins. Maybe I am wrong.
I think we are in a strong situation also. If he plays hardball we can let him walk. There are plenty of other good coaches who would like $1M per season and our investment in facilities to showcase their coaching chops.

[JK37]

There are not plenty of such coaches. Plenty of people willing, but not plenty worth the $1M annual investment of which you speak.

[cruzan_flame13]

Proud or not the question is one of leverage. If he wins and recruiting is strong he deserves an extension but he is already paid well here. Who is going to offer him a better situation? I don't anticipate a bidding war for his services after this year even if we get 7 or 8 wins. Maybe I am wrong.
I think we are in a strong situation also. If he plays hardball we can let him walk. There are plenty of other good coaches who would like $1M per season and our investment in facilities to showcase their coaching chops.

Ding Ding Ding!! He shouldn’t even had been the coach for this season, but I understand why he remained here so far. Honestly, I don’t think there’s any value to keep Gill anymore. Why should we fool ourselves into believeing that there will be a change with him as coach? What more can Gill give to us, even if we have a decent record? We can definitely find another coach who deserve the salary and can create a good program plus atmosphere here on the mountain.

[Ewglenn]

What’s getting lost in all this is we are more talented than half of our schedule. NMSU, NM, FCS and UMass we have much better talent. Six wins is nice but this isn’t murderer’s row. Most coaches “should” beat those teams with or current roster. We have two players that will be playing in the NFL, Wells and AGG, and one, Buckshot, that has a chance. Y’all are getting caught up in the emotions of us not looking like idiots that you’ve forgot the entire body of work for HCTG. I say if we don’t lose to an FCS team, which I’ve already predicted we will lose to Idaho St, then Gill should stay another year. If we lose one of those he has to go.

[JK37]

What’s getting lost in all this is we are more talented than half of our schedule. NMSU, NM, FCS and UMass we have much better talent. Six wins is nice but this isn’t murderer’s row. Most coaches “should” beat those teams with or current roster. We have two players that will be playing in the NFL, Wells and AGG, and one, Buckshot, that has a chance. Y’all are getting caught up in the emotions of us not looking like idiots that you’ve forgot the entire body of work for HCTG. I say if we don’t lose to an FCS team, which I’ve already predicted we will lose to Idaho St, then Gill should stay another year. If we lose one of those he has to go.

I feel like you are contradicting yourself a little. Six wins isn’t good considering the schedule, but as long as he sweeps the FCS opponents he can stay. Do I have that right?

[ballah09]

I'm really going to hate to see them waste the talent that's going to be on next years team. With Mack and Huntley being eligible and Buck, Agg, Stubbs, and. 4 OL starters back offense it could be one of the most explosive offenses in the country. I'm afraid we won't see that.

This screams JMU all over again. Beat teams that have the same level of talent ala NMSU, UMass, 2 FCS, etc and let him stay to only come back and win 1-2 games. We know this story already.