[BJWilliams]

Ok since apparently everybody wants to talk about attendance and how its calculated I thought Id start a discussion on that to divert it from the score prediction discussion

[Schfourteenteen]

People show up. They get counted. Someone tells someone the number who then tells someone else the number and finally someone is told the number and tells number of people that number people were in attendance of today's game.

Good discussion

[Rooster Cogburn]

I think I will suggest it to a statistics class that they should come estimate the crowd based on facts. Kidding. How about a 5th grade math project for LCA?

[flamesbball84]

Since people who ahve to pay to get in get a ticket, why not have people who get in free (students or anyone else) be given a ticket when they walk in? Sure it won't be an exact science (what if a student leaves the facility and comes back without his ticket), but it's a lot more exact than guesstimating. I know here when we host NCAA Tournament games where people have to pay to get in, the Dean of Students covers the cost of admission for LC students and we give the student half of the ticket and we keep the other half to track costs.

[Liberty4Life]

People show up. They get counted. Someone tells someone the number who then tells someone else the number and finally someone is told the number and tells number of people that number people were in attendance of today's game.

Good discussion

Which is great, except you're wrong. The SIDs look at the crowd and basically guess. They've even told me and a buddy that they usually choose odd numbers because that way, it doesn't look like it's made up.

Statistically, you should see as many odd-numbered attendance figures as even-numbered ones. Look at the past two years; of the 13 home games, only one has been attended by an even number of fans.

[PAmedic]

Which is great, except you're wrong. The SIDs look at the crowd and basically guess. They've even told me and a buddy that they usually choose odd numbers because that way, it doesn't look like it's made up.

with all due respect- I'd be VERY careful about making this type of allegation. Not calling you a liar- just a note of caution.

[ALAFlamesFan]

This can easily be solved once and for all at football and basketball games by having your student ID swiped as you enter the game. At Alabama students must have their ticket scanned and have their ID swiped thus proving they are a student (and their right to a student ticket). Seems like LU could swipe student ID's and therefore accurately count student attendance #'s, then scan tickets on the other side and volia: Proof of attendance figures.

On the flip side...who cares what the # is as long as the stadium is full and the folks who are there stand up and cheer!

And on a scarier side....you could track who comes to games and market directly to the students who show they care about LU sports or inundate students who haven't come with emails, fliers, mailouts, etc until they show up

[SuperJon]

People show up. They get counted. Someone tells someone the number who then tells someone else the number and finally someone is told the number and tells number of people that number people were in attendance of today's game.

Good discussion

Which is great, except you're wrong. The SIDs look at the crowd and basically guess. They've even told me and a buddy that they usually choose odd numbers because that way, it doesn't look like it's made up.

You telling Schfourteenteen he's wrong is absolutely laughable. I'm sure he knows about 1000% more about the current athletic department than you do.

Every single person in the stadium is able to be counted. Everyone that comes in as a fan is supposed to walk through a turnstile. These turnstiles keep track of how many people walk through them. That's part of the process of finding out the numbers.

[PAmedic]

not to mention accusing the SID of outright fraud/lying on a public forum. I can't stress enough that you should REALLY think twice about doing that.

[SuperJon]

Especially when we can expose who you really are.

[JK37]

This can easily be solved once and for all at football and basketball games by having your student ID swiped as you enter the game. At Alabama students must have their ticket scanned and have their ID swiped thus proving they are a student (and their right to a student ticket). Seems like LU could swipe student ID's and therefore accurately count student attendance #'s, then scan tickets on the other side and volia: Proof of attendance figures.

On the flip side...who cares what the # is as long as the stadium is full and the folks who are there stand up and cheer!

And on a scarier side....you could track who comes to games and market directly to the students who show they care about LU sports or inundate students who haven't come with emails, fliers, mailouts, etc until they show up

This is kind of a neat idea in theory. I would think the overhead would outweigh the perceived benefits. The easier way to calculate attendance accurately is turnstiles. LU has them, and has used them in the past. In fact, I think they still do. That process at least gets you close, then all you have to add is working staff.

Whether or not they actually use this accurate number is up to the game administrators, I'm sure. Every school is a little different, so I've got no idea how LU works all that stuff out. The truth is, when fully accurate numbers are found in this way and used, it always seems lower than what the naked eye perceives to be the attendance.

[Cider Jim]

I think they have used turnstiles for basketball games, but have they ever used them for football games at LU?

[SuperJon]

I think they have used turnstiles for basketball games, but have they ever used them for football games at LU?

For the past few years, at least at the student entrances.

[flamesbball84]

Which is great, except you're wrong. The SIDs look at the crowd and basically guess. They've even told me and a buddy that they usually choose odd numbers because that way, it doesn't look like it's made up.

with all due respect- I'd be VERY careful about making this type of allegation. Not calling you a liar- just a note of caution.

Well others have stated this doesn't happen at LU, but I know for a fact it does happen at other places (and no I'm not talking about just D3s).

[Liberty4Life]

I'm only telling you what I was told by an SID. If you're going to expose me for passing that on, c'est la vie.

Further, the stats I pointed out (only 1 out of 13 games in the last two years ended in an even number) are true and verifiable. The odds of that happening are less at 1 percent.

For me to be tossing allegations in order to explain a statistical anomaly is pretty dorky, even by my standards.

In fairness, when I was told what I was told, it was years ago and under a different athletic regime. I'm sure things could have changed since then.

[prototype]

Man, I didn't mean to bring on a fire storm. Let me clear this up.

I have been invloved with LU for a long time and seen it done both ways. I think the current staff does the best to count the tickets and students, but it's next to impossible with our current facility to track everyone. There is a guessing game that goes on naturally, because you are allowed to count players, staff, coaches, bands, etc...

I can tell you that the SIDs and/or staff do the best they can to determine a number with what they have - they are not trying to inflate the numbers on purpose to make the attendance better. I really don't think they care beyond paid attendance. I was just saying that we need to get a better baseline for attendance, because I can tell you when other ADs were here the numbers got out of control. We would have 100 people in the Vines and we would announce 1,200. Those numbers of perception got carried over to current sports - where we set attendance records in years past under Graham that weren't even close to what is showing up now.

The crowds are awesome!!!!! The atmosphere is close to FBS!!!! Sorry to start this whole discussion - It's negative and I was just trying to stir up drama on the board, not get anyone in trouble or start a new estimated procedure...

[JK37]

I was just trying to stir up drama on the board

Called it.

[El Scorcho]

Counting is faulty as people come and go during the games.

Estimating is faulty because people are usually pretty bad at math.

You need a combination of the two.

But if you really want to count, one picture taken with any decent DSLR and wide-angle lens from each side of the stadium during the game should enable you to easily count every person in every seat at your leisure. As a matter of fact, I'll do just that and re-visit this thread after the first game I attend...which will not be this weekend, unfortunately. But I have a very good reason.

[Sly Fox]

The problem with pics is that it only shows visible fans at a precise time. It doesn't count for those getting hot dogs or using the other facilities. It also doesn't count for those who came early and had to leave or those who arrive late. We use pics to do our worship counts at our church and even with church services it is tough to get an exact count.

[PAmedic]

In fairness, when I was told what I was told, it was years ago and under a different athletic regime. I'm sure things could have changed since then.

that is a very important distinction to make and I appreciate you making it. Thanks.

[dcbailey]

I know this question will incite some responses about LU's standard M.O., but with the JMU game coming up and a growing program...

What is the number of tickets sold at which the AD says, "We have no more room." And if there is no exact way of measuring, monitoring or restricting student attendence, how would anyone be able to make that statement?

[olldflame]

There is no way to get a guaranteed accurate figure, but IMHO the way you get the closest is to get as accurate a turnstyle count as possible of people entering. It doesn't matter how many leave early. They were there. You announce the attendance during the game as a preliminary figure and then tweak it to add late arrivals before publishing the official attendance.

the photo method only captures the people in the stands at one moment. I would estimate that in the last couple of years at the home games I have gone to, at any point in time there were anywhere from 1500-3000 people in the stadium but not in the stands.

[LUconn]

I know this question will incite some responses about LU's standard M.O., but with the JMU game coming up and a growing program...

What is the number of tickets sold at which the AD says, "We have no more room." And if there is no exact way of measuring, monitoring or restricting student attendence, how would anyone be able to make that statement?

I doubt there is a number like that. But it's not needed. That's like asking how many people you can fit in the grass and up on top of the hills back towards the gates.

[soccer7]

I am sure that the attendance is done as carefully as possible. They need to have an average attendance or tickets sold each year for so many years before we could move up to the FBS.

[ALAFlamesFan]

That's right soccer. It is 15,000 a season over 2 seasons.

Football Bowl Subdivision Requirements
An institution classified in Football Bowl Subdivision shall meet all the Division I membership
requirements set forth in NCAA Division I Bylaws 20.9.1 through 20.9.5 and in addition, shall:

1. Sponsor a minimum of 16 varsity intercollegiate sports, including football, based on the
minimum sports sponsorship and scheduling requirements set forth in Bylaw 20.
Sponsorship shall include a minimum six sports involving all male teams or mixed teams
(males and females), and a minimum of eight varsity intercollegiate teams involving all
female teams. Institutions may use up to two emerging sports to satisfy the required eight
varsity intercollegiate sports involving all female teams. [Bylaw 20.9.7.1]

2. Schedule and play at least 60 percent of its football contests against members of Football
Bowl Subdivision. Institutions shall schedule and play at least five regular season home
contests against Football Bowl Subdivision opponents. [Bylaw 20.9.7.2]

3. Average at least 15,000 in actual or paid attendance for all home football contests over a
rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.3]

4. Provide an average of at least 90 percent of the permissible maximum number of overall
football grants-in-aid per year over a rolling two-year period. [Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(a)]

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/b96 ... 1ad6fc8b25