[ballcoach15]

Maybe we should play Hymns at football games, since many churches no longer sing them.
Some of this stuff churches sing now borders on country music, not Christian music. It is more focused on selling CDs than leading the lost to Christ.
And guitar players in church wearing blue jeans so tight that they look like they belong in a punk rock band instead of on a church stage.

Churches with women pastors need to read 1 Corinthians 14:34-35.

[Jonathan Carone]

you could see some of the stuff that went around this past week with The Master’s Seminary and John MacArthur.

I tried to google to see what you are referring to, but struck out. Care to enlighten?

There was a thing written by a TMS grad about how Christianity was saved by white Europeans and that it’s predominant spread has been because of white men. Because of that, TSM needed to focus mainly on training white men because that’s who Christianity relies on. At the same time, MacArthur said he didn’t know of a church where racism existed. It was just tone deaf given the thing going around from his seminary graduate and out of touch with the reality of what many people of color experience in evangelical churches.

[jbock13]

So last night was awesome. On so many levels it was amazing. But I also had the most significant “oh my goodness I’m old” moment of my life. And I legitimately am interested in what other people think on the topic. Hear me out.

First of all, I don’t really listen to “Christian music” at this point in life. I have no problem with secular music of all genres, and consume some secular hip hop with what we would consider profane lyrics. So I’ve been cool with the stuff being played for a while, but...

At halftime last night when I heard a Future song called “Mask Off”, they had officially gone over the cliff for me. For those unfamiliar, the chorus lyrics are...

“Percocets
Molly, Percocets
Percocets
Molly, Percocets
Rep the set
Gotta rep the set
Chase a check
Never chase a b***h
Mask on
F*** it, mask off
Mask on
F*** it, mask off
Percocets
Molly, Percocets
Chase a check
Never chase a b***h”

To me, that’s too much. I spend a good chunk of my time dealing with dead or dying people who have OD’d on opioids. I also have spent a fair bit of my career dealing with gang violence and it’s effects. I can’t imagine that anyone thought anything about it when they played it other than “this beat is sick”. So it needs to be pointed out to the important people that read this. There is no place for that trash at Liberty University. Or there shouldn’t be. At any university honestly.

My second issue, and I fully realize that this one is probably a losing battle, is the attire situation. It’s also been creeping in this direction for a while, but was (at least to me) obviously different than even just a couple of years ago. You can’t control what 6k kids wear to a football game, I get it. However, when you have girls who are working for the university (parking lots) wearing literal bootie shorts, it also seems like a bit much for what we claim to be about. The students are college kids, and I remember being one. Again, I get it. But the prevalence of girls in clothes that legitimately have to be a stumbling block for a majority of the young and old men in attendance is no bueno.

When I first visited Liberty, as a non-believing high school senior, (yes a long time ago) I remember two things most. That everyone was very polite, and that my parents didn’t stop talking about how nicely everyone dressed compared to Arizona State. Yesterday, other than the lack of alcohol and over the top profanities, I felt like I could have been at Sun Devil Stadium. In many ways that’s awesome, in a few it isn’t.

Maybe as a newer father I’ve finally crossed over into full on old guy. But these two things really make me sad, because for the first time, while I was so proud of what was going on on the field, it kind of didn’t feel like my school.

Feel free to roast me for being a geezer now.

I agree with you 100%.

I'll never understand the fascination that wealthy/upper middle class white suburban kids have with "gangsta rap" and "hip-hop culture."

I grew up in a blue collar working class community and rap and hip-hop, and all the trash that comes with it, was scorned, ridiculed and looked down on by us appalachian hillbillies. I can't imagine how and why rich white kids decided that it is "cool."

I have have news for the "wannabes." The real "gangsta" crowd doesn't think you are cool when you play pretend "gangsta" and gyrate like a wounded animal. They also don't think you are "cool" if you drink alcohol, do drugs and/or sleep around. You should quit trying to emulate an utterly broken culture.

"Worldstar" is a museum of buffoonery, and you shouldn't try to emulate it.

Now there’s bro country though

[jbock13]

you could see some of the stuff that went around this past week with The Master’s Seminary and John MacArthur.

I tried to google to see what you are referring to, but struck out. Care to enlighten?

There was a thing written by a TMS grad about how Christianity was saved by white Europeans and that it’s predominant spread has been because of white men. Because of that, TSM needed to focus mainly on training white men because that’s who Christianity relies on. At the same time, MacArthur said he didn’t know of a church where racism existed. It was just tone deaf given the thing going around from his seminary graduate and out of touch with the reality of what many people of color experience in evangelical churches.

I love how people get piled on for daring to have the opinion thag life today is much different than it was in the 1950’s.

Does racism still exist? Sure. Can you in any way compare it to the 1950s? No. Will racism always exist? Yes.

[Jonathan Carone]

Your last statement is why pastors can’t say they don’t believe racism exists in the church, especially white wealthy pastors. Church is one of the most segregated places in America. So yes, things are better than the 1950’s, but there’s still a long way to go.

[Purple Haize]

Your last statement is why pastors can’t say they don’t believe racism exists in the church, especially white wealthy pastors. Church is one of the most segregated places in America. So yes, things are better than the 1950’s, but there’s still a long way to go.

That has a whole lot more to do with worship style than racism

[jack_sparrow81]

It would be interesting to take a look at all the discussions involving the music issue during the football games on this forum over the past 15+ years. The progression of where we started to where we are now would be an eye opener for some. For me with the quality of Christian, uplifting, faith based (whatever you want to call it) music today, there is no reason why we are still playing the stuff we are. For a game experience from a fans standpoint, is there anything that we do differently at LU that’s not done at other schools?

90% of Christian music is terrible. I’m totally okay with using secular music, but not when it’s lyrics that promote drugs or violence.

I disagree. When you have mainstream Hip hop stations playing NF, KB, Lecrae, Trip Lee and others, it can't be that bad. I hear a couple of these artists on the tonight shows, or GMA, or playing on th background of a ESPN clip.When I was there, they were playing Rascal Flats and other secular music like 80s music with lyrics that were fine and I'm fine with today. I get it, I rarely listened to Christian music when I was at LU. But to hear "the students only listen to this type of music" is not a good excuse when the lyrics are questionable.

[Jonathan Carone]

But to hear "the students only listen to this type of music" is not a good excuse when the lyrics are questionable.

I can agree with this.

[jinxy]

Haize and jk both addressed my thoughts perfectly. Actually even jbock with a rare intelligent post as well ha.

Ive never seen so much discussion on perception. Perception simply isnt reality and such strong belief in it limits Gods power to being subjective to it which i believe is absurd. Jk nailed the trump thing and its been said over and over. If someone is so stuck on that then their heart is hardened and needs God to soften it.

Then back to jbocks point. Racism today is a business. The more shaun kings type scrubs play it up the more blind sheep follow him and the louder voice a nobody like him gets. Again, i live in swva and cannot remember the last time i saw racism exist in church or day to day. Again, i know it does exist (both sides). Yet we fixate on an issue that virtually everyone is against.

[olldflame]

Your last statement is why pastors can’t say they don’t believe racism exists in the church, especially white wealthy pastors. Church is one of the most segregated places in America. So yes, things are better than the 1950’s, but there’s still a long way to go.

That has a whole lot more to do with worship style than racism

That along with location and a few other factors. I totally agree that the very real segregation of Sunday mornings is almost all about personal choice and very little about discrimination. In my experience visiting black churches I found that when there were a few white people who did attend, they were there because they enjoyed the worship experience and/or lived in the neighborhood. Same could be said for the few non-white members of almost totally white congregations I have attended.

[Purple Haize]

Your last statement is why pastors can’t say they don’t believe racism exists in the church, especially white wealthy pastors. Church is one of the most segregated places in America. So yes, things are better than the 1950’s, but there’s still a long way to go.

That has a whole lot more to do with worship style than racism

That along with location and a few other factors. I totally agree that the very real segregation of Sunday mornings is almost all about personal choice and very little about discrimination. In my experience visiting black churches I found that when there were a few white people who did attend, they were there because they enjoyed the worship experience and/or lived in the neighborhood. Same could be said for the few non-white members of almost totally white congregations I have attended.

I know it’s a car meme but you would be hard pressed to see this at a funeral in a ‘white’ church. Nothing wrong with it. But just a different style

[Jonathan Carone]

That has a whole lot more to do with worship style than racism

I think some of it is definitely worship style.

I think a small piece is racism.

I think the largest piece is racial prejudices, many of which are ingrained at a young age and not on purpose.

But until we stop lumping prejudice with racism, we’ll never be able to make progress on that front. There are churches who have acknowledged the prejudices exist and are working to get rid of them that are making great strides in racial reconciliation.

[makarov97]

...

[Purple Haize]

That has a whole lot more to do with worship style than racism

I think some of it is definitely worship style.

I think a small piece is racism.

I think the largest piece is racial prejudices, many of which are ingrained at a young age and not on purpose.

But until we stop lumping prejudice with racism, we’ll never be able to make progress on that front. There are churches who have acknowledged the prejudices exist and are working to get rid of them that are making great strides in racial reconciliation.

I couldn’t disagree more. The worship styles are so radically different. I don’t know why you want to find guilt where there is none but that’s your burden.
Your last paragraph sounds great but doesn’t actually mean anything.

[Jonathan Carone]

Because I’ve been in and around churches that were integrated with multiple races. I’ve seen what it looks like and what it took to create a church where white Christians, black Christians, Hispanic Christians, and other races worshipped together. It’s in these contexts that people from different backgrounds can be united under the Gospel and get to know each other and learn about their experiences.

[ballcoach15]

I have been to a couple of black churches with a black lady friend. They were good churches that preached the gospel. I went to a church in Augusta, GA that. Was about 50-50 black/white. They had a fund raiser on going to buy the pastor a Corvette. I not sure that was a real church.

[Yacht Rock]

Ballcoach, your insight into race relations in the church is eye opening.

[Purple Haize]

Because I’ve been in and around churches that were integrated with multiple races. I’ve seen what it looks like and what it took to create a church where white Christians, black Christians, Hispanic Christians, and other races worshipped together. It’s in these contexts that people from different backgrounds can be united under the Gospel and get to know each other and learn about their experiences.

We agree on that. The difference I feel is that if a church is not, especially a predominantly white one, it’s a bad thing.

[Liberty22]

We agree on that. The difference I feel is that if a church is not, especially a predominantly white one, it’s a bad thing.

I’m trying to make sure I’m reading this correctly, what’re you saying?

[Purple Haize]

We agree on that. The difference I feel is that if a church is not, especially a predominantly white one, it’s a bad thing.

I’m trying to make sure I’m reading this correctly, what’re you saying?

I’m saying people worship differently and that’s ok.

[Liberty22]

We agree on that. The difference I feel is that if a church is not, especially a predominantly white one, it’s a bad thing.

I’m trying to make sure I’m reading this correctly, what’re you saying?

I’m saying people worship differently and that’s ok.

Yea but are you saying you can’t worship with people of different races or are you saying you struggle with certain church styles? I get preference in terms of worship style and attending accordingly. We should never talk down on those who reach the lost or worship in a way differing in our preference. I’m really hoping you’re saying you struggle with worshipping with a particular style in terms of music style etc and not because of race.

[Purple Haize]

I just prefer certain worship styles. I’m not into the liturgy of Mainline Churches. I’m not into the Hollywood productions of MegaChurches. I’ve had my fill of hour long praise and worship times and 2-3 hour services. None of that has to do with race but preference. That in no way means Churches can’t or shouldn’t work together to reach the masses. The New Testament Epistles are proof that gotherings of Believers have always approached things differently

[Liberty22]

I just prefer certain worship styles. I’m not into the liturgy of Mainline Churches. I’m not into the Hollywood productions of MegaChurches. I’ve had my fill of hour long praise and worship times and 2-3 hour services. None of that has to do with race but preference. That in no way means Churches can’t or shouldn’t work together to reach the masses. The New Testament Epistles are proof that gotherings of Believers have always approached things differently

Yea that makes sense. So long as there’s no animosity in how other churches reach people it’s all good. There’s a reason Jesus prayed for the church to have unity. My church is very contemporary, with loud music and low lighting during worship. Some people don’t like that and that’s ok. Those people that don’t like that should praise God for that style (and all styles that reach people) because our church has seen over 1,200 people cross from death to life in 5 years.

[thepostman]

I think the key is something you already touched on PH. Churches for too long have had a hard time working together to reach their communities due to theological differences that aren't really that different. if churches could all serve the community together and now allow theology or race or worship styles get in the way amazing things could happen.

I've seen it happen in smaller scales and think if it happened more God would bless it.

With that sad different sub cultures are going to be attracted to different styles. There isn't one way that is right and as long as you're fulfilling the great commission and reaching out then there really isn't a problem.

Racism does still exist in the church because it still exist in the heart of man. It has gotten better but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It's crazy where this thread has gone. I have so many other thoughts about music and modesty but will simply say this:

As for BYD starting this thread, If you start a thread complaining about lyrics of music and about modesty you should probably avoid using words like "slut" in describing a college woman's attire. It makes you lose credibility instantly on both issues since clearly the power of words is lost on you.

[Purple Haize]

I just prefer certain worship styles. I’m not into the liturgy of Mainline Churches. I’m not into the Hollywood productions of MegaChurches. I’ve had my fill of hour long praise and worship times and 2-3 hour services. None of that has to do with race but preference. That in no way means Churches can’t or shouldn’t work together to reach the masses. The New Testament Epistles are proof that gotherings of Believers have always approached things differently

Yea that makes sense. So long as there’s no animosity in how other churches reach people it’s all good. There’s a reason Jesus prayed for the church to have unity. My church is very contemporary, with loud music and low lighting during worship. Some people don’t like that and that’s ok. Those people that don’t like that should praise God for that style (and all styles that reach people) because our church has seen over 1,200 people cross from death to life in 5 years.

Nope. No animosity here. I grew up with the 90 minute song service 90 minute sermon 2 offerings the occasional faith healing service. I’ve had my fill of that. Not one of my sisters or parents. I have a cousin who is all about the liturgy. One of my former players preaches at an inner city church that starts at 1:30 and goes to about 4. Nothing wrong with any of that.
In college I went to the extremes of both Willow Creek and JPUSA. I’m not sure I’d go to either at this point in my life. Just because of preference nothing more.