[paradox]

Again, there's nothing unique with LU recievers dropping balls from time to time. It happens to every QB at every level.

[El Scorcho]

Wow, there must be a conspiracy of the gods against Brock.

You need to read SJ's post again and again and again. He just showed you exactly what was done by Brock during crunch time, which is what you criticized him for. Then he showed you each of the failures on other parts of the field that lead to our demise.

And then you say that the gods are against Brock. Now how are they against Brock if Brock isn't the one who failed?

Illogical. Illogical. Illogical.

You keep faulting Brock for the failures of other players on the field and you won't say why.

The bottom line is that Brock has put up adequate enough performances to get us a W. Our defense, however, has let us down. There is only so much that an offensive unit (QB unit included) can do to overcome a defense that isn't showing up. To put that on one player, even the QB, is absolutely ridiculous.

[El Scorcho]

Again, there's nothing unique with LU recievers dropping balls from time to time. It happens to every QB at every level.

From time to time. Our receivers drop the ball as consistently as our quarterback misfires. That is why I rated them on the same level.

And yet again, you brush fact to the side like it doesn't matter.

[paradox]

Ok, he has zero come from behind victories -- but it's always the other guys fault.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must be an illogical buffoon.





Seriously, sports coversations are opinion and speculation. We watch the same game and have different perspectives.

This logic fixation is kinda funny.

I'm only claiming to have an opinion or perspective, but I forgot that I was dealing the Aristotles of LU.

If you have syllogism, then present it. And if it holds, then we'll all have to bend to your superior logic, and in fear, we'll be sure to keep our opinions to ourselves in the future.

[SuperJon]

Again, there's nothing unique with LU recievers dropping balls from time to time. It happens to every QB at every level.

This is why I made the Tyler Thigpen comparison. No one in their right mind will say that Jerome Simpson is not, hands-down, the best receiver in the conference and likely the best in FCS football. Thigpen threw balls that should have been bad, should have been incomplete and yet Jerome Simpson made the catch. Watch this video for the first 20 seconds and watch the play that Simpson made against JMU. Our receivers, while great once they get the ball, haven't made those types of catches this year. Watch the play after the one Simpson made, where the receiver is sliding across the ground. That's another that our receivers don't make. We have great play makers. That's the reason we throw a lot of screen passes, slant routes, etc. We do things to get them into open space so that they can make plays. Our receivers can run, they can jump, they can make a defender miss, and they can break tackles. They just don't have the best hands in the world. Those guys will even tell you they've dropped passes they shouldn't have.

What am I saying with all of this? Brock Smith is playing EXACTLY like Tyler Thigpen did in 2005. He just doesn't have Jerome Simpson to throw to. He's got the Josh Hoke this year (Noah Greenbaum). Our receivers have the ability to be a Jerome Simpson type player, they just have to step up and take it.

[paradox]

Again, there's nothing unique with LU recievers dropping balls from time to time. It happens to every QB at every level.

This is why I made the Tyler Thigpen comparison. No one in their right mind will say that Jerome Simpson is not, hands-down, the best receiver in the conference and likely the best in FCS football. Thigpen threw balls that should have been bad, should have been incomplete and yet Jerome Simpson made the catch. Watch this video for the first 20 seconds and watch the play that Simpson made against JMU. Our receivers, while great once they get the ball, haven't made those types of catches this year. Watch the play after the one Simpson made, where the receiver is sliding across the ground. That's another that our receivers don't make. We have great play makers. That's the reason we throw a lot of screen passes, slant routes, etc. We do things to get them into open space so that they can make plays. Our receivers can run, they can jump, they can make a defender miss, and they can break tackles. They just don't have the best hands in the world. Those guys will even tell you they've dropped passes they shouldn't have.

What am I saying with all of this? Brock Smith is playing EXACTLY like Tyler Thigpen did in 2005. He just doesn't have Jerome Simpson to throw to. He's got the Josh Hoke this year (Noah Greenbaum). Our receivers have the ability to be a Jerome Simpson type player, they just have to step up and take it.

That's an interesting opinion and I agree that Jerome Simpson is outstanding and we don't have a player as skilled as him. However, Thigpen made it up to the next level (NFL). It would be wishful thinking at best to compare Smith & Thigpen at this stage.

[SuperJon]

No it's not. Coastal changed their offense between the 2005 and 2006 season. They changed to a spread offense that allowed Thigpen to run and gave him a completely different offense than in 2005. Here are Thigpen's numbers in 2005 in what was the exact same offense that we are currently running:

Code: Select all

Att Comp Int Yds TD
12   22   0  132  0
24   36   1  287  3
10   22   1   87  0
7    17   1   84  0
14   28   1   97  1
16   25   2  193  2
15   31   0  241  1
10   18   0  157  1
11   18   0  136  2
6    6    0  86   1
8    23   0  89   0

His average line in the box score was:
12   22  .5 144.5 1   ...   54.1% completion average 

Brock Smith has been the undisputed starter for our team for 11 games, the same amount Thigpen played in 2005. Here are his numbers, first from the last 5 games of 2006, then the first six games of 2007.

Code: Select all

Att Comp Int Yds TD
15   24   0  163  1
11   17   2  127  0
11   20   1  161  1
12   17   0  224  2
8    12   0  127  1

Average:
11   18  .6  160.4 1   61% completion percentage

Code: Select all

Att Comp Int Yds TD
13   25   1  145  0
11   17   0  170  2
25   37   2  203  2
17   37   1  222  0
8    10   1  194  3
10   19   0   101 1

Average game:
14   24  .8  172.5 1.3   58% completion percentage

You can say what you want, but this proves that Smith is playing exactly like Thigpen was in 2005.


Edited to format stats

[paradox]

You're leaving quite a bit out with that comparison:

1. Thigpen is reliable and consistant in the most critical situations.
2. Thigpen can throw and run.
3. Thigpen led his teams to some impressive wins against solid opponents.
4. Thigpen usually finds a way to win and usually comes out on top in the big games.

[Ed Dantes]

Brock Smith isn't a great QB. We all know that. He may not even be the best on the team. We all know that. But still -- he knows the system better than any of our other quarterbacks (by virtue of being there the longest). However, he has done the best job that he can -- and in many cases, that is in a position where we have an opportunity to win football games.

At that point, we have to hope that someone else can step up -- and yes, there is a defense that has been rather porous recently, a defense that Brock has very little to do with.

Considering that our goal this year is to win the Big South, and Brock is the preseason all-conference QB -- I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt for the time being. We should just say "well, what we have at QB is what we got. where else can we step up"?

[Ed Dantes]

Follow-up to my last post:

If our frosh QB is really the best one, here is my proposal:

Once we lose a conference game, our season is sunk. We won't win the Big South with an L in the loss column. At that point, since we would have nothing to play for, give the frosh some reps.

[SuperJon]

No, I'm not leaving that out. I have addressed those issues multiple times. His receivers (namely Simpson in late-game situations) did not drop the passes. He also had a field goal kicker who could win games for him (unlike Beasley last year). Thigpen was a better runner, yes. Brock can run if needed. He's not the fastest in the world, but he's quick and not afraid to take a hit. In 2005, there were four close games that either were come from behind or went into overtime (JMU, SCSU, G-W, and Liberty).

JMU: 7 of 9 passes completed to Simpson in the last two drives. 8 of 15 passes on those two drives were thrown to Simpson.

SCSU: 1 of 3 passes were completed to Simpson in the game-winning drive.

G-W: They ran the ball four straight times to get into field goal range.

LU: Tied at 14 in the fourth quarter, Simpson threw a 58 yard pass to Simpson to take the lead. In the first overtime, Coastal threw two passes, both to Simpson. In the other two OTs, they just ran the ball.

This shows that, in come from behind or game winning situations, Thigpen had a sure-fire receiver to go to, as evidenced by him going 9-14 in three games on game-winning or game-tying drives. One of our receivers has to step up and be the sure fire receiver to go to at the end of the game.

[SuperJon]

If our frosh QB is really the best one, here is my proposal:

Once we lose a conference game, our season is sunk. We won't win the Big South with an L in the loss column. At that point, since we would have nothing to play for, give the frosh some reps.

That's just silly. Why waste an entire season of eligibility on three games?

[paradox]

The trend in our subdivision seems to be leaning heavily toward some variation of Rich Rodriegez's spread offense.

Most defenses are having struggles against this style of play, not just LU.

If we are going to be competitve in the future, then we must adapt on both sides of the ball.

[SuperJon]

That's why none of the top 4 in FCS football play that style of football, right?

If you want us to run the spread option, just say it. Don't give some crap that it's the only way to win, etc.

[SuperJon]

Also, you completely ignored my response to you about Thigpen.

[El Scorcho]

Ok, he has zero come from behind victories -- but it's always the other guys fault.

Anyone who thinks otherwise must be an illogical buffoon.

Correction: The team has zero come from behind victories. Brock isn't the only player on the field. You keep making that mistake. You keep putting the performance of the entire team on Brock's shoulders.

This logic fixation is kinda funny.

No, it's not funny at all, because you keep attempting to make a point, but you're doing it without being rational. Logic and rationality are quite necessary when trying to make a point.

I'm only claiming to have an opinion or perspective, but I forgot that I was dealing the Aristotles of LU.

And then, when your point fails, you downplay it and resort to making fun. Ad hominem = failure.

If you have syllogism, then present it. And if it holds, then we'll all have to bend to your superior logic, and in fear, we'll be sure to keep our opinions to ourselves in the future.

I've given you every opportunity to answer my points and my questions, but you continue to side step them and brush them away with nonsensical blabber. You ignore things that you don't want to answer. It's not a matter of superiority. It's simply a matter of you doing what's necessary to carry on a rational conversation with other human beings. So far, in your history on this board, you've demonstrated little to no ability to do that. You just ramble on with no regard for what anyone else has to say, no matter how factual or logical. Keep it up and see where it gets you.

[paradox]

The trend in our subdivision seems to be leaning heavily toward some variation of Rich Rodriegez's spread offense.

Most defenses are having struggles against this style of play, not just LU.

If we are going to be competitve in the future, then we must adapt on both sides of the ball.

Actually, I'm gonna stand by what I said.

In my opinion, Paterno style ball isn't going to cut it for us. We need to adjust, be more innovative on offense, and accept the fact that teams are passing more than they run.

We wanna run between the tackles and pretend that other teams are as conservative as we are--but this is clearly not the case.

[paradox]

El Scorcho:

We get it, you're "sensative."

[paradox]

No, I'm not leaving that out. I have addressed those issues multiple times. His receivers (namely Simpson in late-game situations) did not drop the passes. He also had a field goal kicker who could win games for him (unlike Beasley last year). Thigpen was a better runner, yes. Brock can run if needed. He's not the fastest in the world, but he's quick and not afraid to take a hit. In 2005, there were four close games that either were come from behind or went into overtime (JMU, SCSU, G-W, and Liberty).

JMU: 7 of 9 passes completed to Simpson in the last two drives. 8 of 15 passes on those two drives were thrown to Simpson.

SCSU: 1 of 3 passes were completed to Simpson in the game-winning drive.

G-W: They ran the ball four straight times to get into field goal range.

LU: Tied at 14 in the fourth quarter, Simpson threw a 58 yard pass to Simpson to take the lead. In the first overtime, Coastal threw two passes, both to Simpson. In the other two OTs, they just ran the ball.

This shows that, in come from behind or game winning situations, Thigpen had a sure-fire receiver to go to, as evidenced by him going 9-14 in three games on game-winning or game-tying drives. One of our receivers has to step up and be the sure fire receiver to go to at the end of the game.

With or without Simpson, Thigpen is successful because of Thigpen. That's why he's in the NFL right now as a member of the KC Chiefs.

If I'm not mistaken, Thigpen was under center in Coastal's inaugural game as a program. What would they have accomplished without him?

He was 30-8 as a starter and had come from behind signature wins against #1 JMU and #3 Furman.

It's fine if you like Brock, but he's not worthy to be in a conversation that includes Tyler Thigpen.

...

[El Scorcho]

El Scorcho:

We get it, you're "sensative."

There you go again. Ignore what you don't like and go for the personal attack.

Classy.

[FlamingChick]

I think we have a good chance at winning the Big South this year, which has always been Rocco's goal.

I don't think that our offense is bad, but it could use some improvement. I think ZT and RJ are both great backs, and once we have more games with both of them in the backfield, we'll be in great shape. As for our passing game, I wouldn't blame ALL of the incompletions on Brock b/c, as SJ has stated, the receivers have dropped a few. However, IMO there have been a lot more passes that have been over-thrown than those that were actually catchable passes that our receivers have dropped. For some reason, Brock has a lot of trouble throwing the out--I'd guess about 80-90% of them are overthrown. This was also the case the other night at Toledo. Brock has a higher completion rate when throwing short passes or down the middle. I may not agree that Brock has given us a chance to win every game as SJ has stated, but only because I feel that he has struggled the more in the games that mattered the most (Elon, W&M, Toledo), BUT I do believe we can win the Big South Championship with him. So, that being said, I think we should just stop criticizing as much and just grin and bear it b/c there isn't going to be a change at this point in the season. We just have to work with what we've got, and that's Brock.

As for the Defense, the other night, they were obviously tired towards the end of the game, but they seemed to start out a little better than in the past. One thing we've got to remember about the Toledo game is that we were also missing one of our top Defensive players in Nick Hursky--not to say that we dont have a lot of talent on the depth chart, but he is one of our leading tacklers, and he comes up with some big stops. I can't help but wonder if our struggles with the defense rests with our lack of speed?? Do we not have the speed we need to run this scheme?? We just cant get to the right spot at the right time to make the stops...I'm concerned mostly when our team faces a good back or a good tight end. I think we cover the WRs pretty well down the stretch most of the time. But there is always room for improvement.

I think this team is still on their way from Good 2 Great, but we can't expect it to happen overnight. I foresee a few back to back Big South Championships in our future we just need to have a little patience.

[paradox]

Laugh a little -- it's just a little football talk

[SuperJon]

With or without Simpson, Thigpen is successful because of Thigpen. That's why he's in the NFL right now as a member of the KC Chiefs.

If I'm not mistaken, Thigpen was under center in Coastal's inaugural game as a program. What would they have accomplished without him?

He was 30-8 as a starter and had come from behind signature wins against #1 JMU and #3 Furman.

It's fine if you like Brock, but he's not worthy to be in a conversation that includes Tyler Thigpen.

...

Once again, this is where you're wrong. His first two years they won because of Patrick Hall and their running game. In his 3rd year, 2005, he started throwing more. In 2006, they completely changed their offense and let him be how he is regarded as now. You're looking at Thigpen just from 2006. Until then, he wasn't that great of a quarterback.

[paradox]

I think we have a good chance at winning the Big South this year, which has always been Rocco's goal.

I don't think that our offense is bad, but it could use some improvement. I think ZT and RJ are both great backs, and once we have more games with both of them in the backfield, we'll be in great shape. As for our passing game, I wouldn't blame ALL of the incompletions on Brock b/c, as SJ has stated, the receivers have dropped a few. However, IMO there have been a lot more passes that have been over-thrown than those that were actually catchable passes that our receivers have dropped. For some reason, Brock has a lot of trouble throwing the out--I'd guess about 80-90% of them are overthrown. This was also the case the other night at Toledo. Brock has a higher completion rate when throwing short passes or down the middle. I may not agree that Brock has given us a chance to win every game as SJ has stated, but only because I feel that he has struggled the more in the games that mattered the most (Elon, W&M, Toledo), BUT I do believe we can win the Big South Championship with him. So, that being said, I think we should just stop criticizing as much and just grin and bear it b/c there isn't going to be a change at this point in the season. We just have to work with what we've got, and that's Brock.

As for the Defense, the other night, they were obviously tired towards the end of the game, but they seemed to start out a little better than in the past. One thing we've got to remember about the Toledo game is that we were also missing one of our top Defensive players in Nick Hursky--not to say that we dont have a lot of talent on the depth chart, but he is one of our leading tacklers, and he comes up with some big stops. I can't help but wonder if our struggles with the defense rests with our lack of speed?? Do we not have the speed we need to run this scheme?? We just cant get to the right spot at the right time to make the stops...I'm concerned mostly when our team faces a good back or a good tight end. I think we cover the WRs pretty well down the stretch most of the time. But there is always room for improvement.

I think this team is still on their way from Good 2 Great, but we can't expect it to happen overnight. I foresee a few back to back Big South Championships in our future we just need to have a little patience.

I think that we can win the big south with Brock as well, but that may actually come by default, depending on whether or not GW turns out to actually be good this year.

We need to start thinking about the future as well. How many chances do we give a guy before we finally realize that he is not the answer?

[El Scorcho]

Laugh a little -- it's just a little football talk

Oh you make me laugh a lot. Don't worry about that.