[PeterParker]

Cauldron-Olympic style at one end of the stadium.

Archer shoots fire arrow (multimedia effects.)

Cauldron ignites, crowd goes crazy, and the IOC calls their lawyers to stick it to LU.

[Sly Fox]

I agree, Tally.

PP- Go ahead and start another thread and we'll talk ad nauseum about the SoCon, CAA and a new league. Its good to rehash some of the old discussion periodically.

[TallyW]

That's what I'm talkin' about Parker!!! That's the spirit! An IOC inspired stadium.

A raffle to be held in Convo the Wednesday before each game... the winning student gets to attach his/her reps to the arrow which will be shot into the flames and the reps do up in smoke to be seen no more!

[PeterParker]

Posted that in the wrong place, excuse my error fellows.

[SuperJon]

How will we attract top I-A recruits if we don't attract top I-AA recruits? It has to start somewhere, and that place is attracting the top I-AA recruits, becoming a good I-AA, then moving up to I-A and going after those kids. If it's between us and another small I-A, and they see that we weren't very good at the I-AA level and just recently moved up, they won't pick us. Kids want to win. Like I've said other places, it's better to go to a lower level and WIN than to a higher level and LOSE. Most athletes will tell you they'd rather go to a I-AA that has a chance of winning than a I-A that has no chance of even winning their conference. Winning is what's most important.

[D Edcil]

TALLY I am dizzy from all the different arguments you make. This is not about enrollment, DeMoss, Christian Universities or even Debate, as you said this is about 1A football.
Yes you may dream big, you may be a "Visionary" but with out practicality you set yourself up for a fall. I will tell you why I think it is important for us to be a successful 1AA program for a few years before we "jump" and that is FOUNDATION. We would have a nice core of players to BUILD on. We would have traditions that MEANT something, we would have a financial base to BUILD on. THAT is the connection between a good 1AA team and a 1A. What traditions do we have? Losing. What do our finances look like? Poor. I may want to own an Aston Vanquish, but if I went out and bought one, I would be bankrupt, and eventually have to give it back. But if I saved up money and drove other cars eventually one of two things would happen I would a) realize that I really don't NEED a Vanquish, although it would be totally cool and/or 2) I would actaully HAVE THE MONEY to buy one.
Be VERY careful when you talk about leaders v followers. The followers of Jim Jones didn't fare too well, but JJ WAS a visionary, as was Joan of Arc, I believe the originator of the S'more. Some would argue the same about GWB and the war. Being 1A does not mean we have excellence. I prefer to put myself in a third category you do not list, that is Practical, Thoughtful and Truthful. I am not one to be swayed by grandeous talk. There is just, IMO, a right way and a wrong way to go about running a football school. The first being, Can we afford it? The simple answer is no, we can't. Will we at some point? Who knows, but if we had a consistent winner at our level then the possibilities would be increased. Old Arty can only do so much.
You lost me, which is not hard, when you say this is a ten year process and then say once we make the move to 1A we will recruit ALL NEW players every year. If that is the case, why don't we jump next year? Will these recruits magically appear?
I am looking but I do not see where I said we should have no goal. Clearly stated, I think we should have a kick booty 1AA football program. I can see past my nose very well thank you, just ask Coach K he loves it when I do his games! There is just no way, yes NO WAY, that we can field a competitive D1A program at Liberty University at this time. The only way this will change is if 1A guidlines change, which it might, and allow fewer schools in. (This is a whole other topic about power football schools starting their own "NFSAA" or so)
The Core questions are does LU meet the following requirement:
1. Attendance
2. Stadium Size
3. Conference Affiliation
4. Financial Stability
5. Community Support

IMO, we do not.

[Brokeback Flamer]

For what it is worth I am going to have to side with SJ and DE on this one. I don't think they are belly aching, I thnk they are just making a valid point. Here is my question to add to the mix. Why SHOULD we go 1A? The only teams that make money are the upper echelon teams. It is gettting so expensive now that unless you have a nice alumni financial base AND make a major bowl (BCS or a notch down) you are going to lose money hand over fist. So if we DID get into a conference, and DID go to a bowl game, we had better not play in December, especially not b4 Christmas. I think this is an unrealistic expectation for LU athletics.
Now someone pass the Rolaids would ya?

[TallyW]

SJ- Your post is somewhat confusing to me. You want us to sit still for 10-15 years just for the first two or three recruiting classes at the 1-A level? You really think that a person being recruited to play for a bottom feeder 1-A school will be in the same mind-set as someone being recruited at a major D-1A school? No. they will be thinking "here's my opportunity to play at the best level"

Some of the Christian football players won't come to LU b/c it's not D1. Where are the players coming from? They are already out there... You can't dance if you're not at the party. Some of you want to sit on your hands at home and complain that you'll never get a dance. You can't dance if you're at home. It's time that LU starts to pick out a tux and get to the party...

SJ... No D1A football player gives a crap about our 1-AA record. They want to win yes but they also want nice facilities and a good education... their parents want them in a good environment and they want to be wanted and yes they want to win but our 1AA wins won't mean a lick once we move to 1A. Besides you don't get a whole new team that first year or two... Because of that we will likely suck at 1A regardless of our 1AA performance... it's not worth sitting and doing nothing just to save face for our first two years at the next level.


As for D Edcil--
I didn't realize that my comments were all that hard to follow. The point is simply that it takes a visionary mindset when approaching these things. Yes you need to be practical and you need people to disect the problems... you need all sorts of people... but the KEY is to get them in the process at the right time. At this stage with so much up in the air... the pocket protectors aren't needed.... it takes visionaries to inspire and motivate a group of people toward a common goal. The number crunchers will be brought in later. As for the money... I don't care where it comes from. I remember Dr. Falwell asking the student body to pray for a $50 million dollar miracle to help get LU out of debt. The following year when it happened and the student body errupted in applause and we celebrated God's faithfulness sealed my deal as far as money. Personally I believe too many people settle because they think they need the provision before they can start acting on the vision. You need detailed and practical people in every situation but you need them at the right times.... now is the time for inspiration and vision... not people who think they are bright b/c they can see the hurdles.... I don't know 1 track athelete who gets a gold medal for announcing to everyone that there are hurdles on the ground

[SuperJon]

SJ... No D1A football player gives a crap about our 1-AA record. They want to win yes but they also want nice facilities and a good education... their parents want them in a good environment and they want to be wanted and yes they want to win but our 1AA wins won't mean a lick once we move to 1A. Besides you don't get a whole new team that first year or two... Because of that we will likely suck at 1A regardless of our 1AA performance... it's not worth sitting and doing nothing just to save face for our first two years at the next level.

Yet again you sell current athletes short. Do you even know any high school or college athletes? Have you been around someone going through the recruiting process in the past 2-3 years? Even 5 years?

Why do so many kids transfer from I-A to I-AA? They want to play, and they want to win. 90% of the athletes would rather go to an App State, Georgia Southern (top tiered I-AA school) than an ECU (crappy I-A school).

Ok, tell me something. If our record doesn't mean anything, what's going to get I-A talent to come here? Apparently it's something secret since we haven't had great I-AA coming here lately.

[Brokeback Flamer]

Oh heck, in for apeck in for a pound, I like men in tight pants as much as the next fella

Financial Costs of football v bball. This is 2001 so the numbers are not as up to date

http://money.cnn.com/2001/11/13/news/column_sportsbiz/

Attendance Requirements. It is AVERAGE 15k for two years OR 15k PAID average for 1 year

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/newsdeta ... +NCAA+News

General Eligibility Requirements to be a 1A football school. This quote sort of hurts "Ensure that groups seeking bowl certification would be required to meet criteria that includes revenue potential of $1 million in gross receipts, excluding any revenue derived from contractual arrangements by participating conferences and schools; sell a number of tickets equal in value to the combined contractual obligations of the participating schools; and actual average attendance of 75 percent of stadium capacity over a three-year period."

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/!ut/p/kc ... 0301d1.htm

[TallyW]

SJ-
1. Knowing 1 or 2 atheletes being recruited doesn't make you any more aware of anything but 1 or 2 opinions and approaches.
2. Kids transfer down to play today. They get recruited... don't start... want to leave to play quickly. It's not rocket science.
3. To answer your question, yes I do know atheletes who've been recruited recently. I'm a Pastor. One of our Seniors just signed with U of Florida for track although as I said, that doesn't give me anything more than 1 kids perspective and what he wanted... it tells me squat about humanity as a whole. People are people and we make decisions for 1000 reasons. You decided to come to LU after leaving Coastal... that was your choice... I'm not sure you'd want anyone to pretend that they know you so well that they have you pegged as to why you've done what you've done. My guess is however that you wouldn't have come to LU if they weren't accredited. That's the reason D-1A players won't come to LU today... first off... we're not D1A yet... pretty simple to me.


Brokeback
- Good stats. Thanks.

Did anyone else notice that the grass is green and the sky is blue?

[Brokeback Flamer]

I am going to have to disagree with alot of this. For starters, it IS a big choice for an athlete. The question they have to answer, and for evryone the answer is different "Do I want to play and win (ex 1AA) or play and lose (poor 1A) or sit and win (Good 1A). That is a tough question. One I actually had to ask myself a long time ago. Also, it is not necessarily true that we will be sub par our mythical first year of 1A, especially if we have a group of players who have been around for awhile, are talented and USED to winning.
Also, your visionary statement makes a good sound bite, but doesnt' hold up, IMO. If you are PLANNING something, that is when you get the pencil pushers in. It would be nice to say it is going to take X,Y and Z to make this thing happen, then take account to what we have and then what we need to get there, if we could.
I did like you Jesse Jacksonesqu "they need the provision befoe they start action on the vision" statement, but it does beg one question. How DID we get 50 (actually 72) million in debt? Was it vision? But that is another topic for another thread

[TallyW]

I'm assuming you've never built an organization from the ground up before.

[SuperJon]

SJ-
1. Knowing 1 or 2 atheletes being recruited doesn't make you any more aware of anything but 1 or 2 opinions and approaches.

I know 3 kids getting recruited right now for baseball. I know two more who are seniors and signed to major D1 schools in baseball last year and are looking at getting drafted.

I know 3 kids from last year that were getting recruited for baseball.

I know 3 kids that are currently getting recruited to play football for next year (two just signed, one more is close to).

I'm also close to a former major leaguer who has a World Series ring and who I've talked to many times about recruiting.

I have talked to Coach Vrooman (Coastal's original coach) before about recruiting.

I talked to a scout last week about recruiting.

Don't assume it's just one or two. You know what happens when you assume.

Being I-A doesn't mean you deserve to be there. I-A has gotten so diluted, just like I-AA is becoming.

As for the Coastal comment, like I've said before, it's people like you that seriously make me reconsider my decision.

[Brokeback Flamer]

I'm assuming you've never built an organization from the ground up before.

Yeah, see here is the thing. You probably shouldn't assume, as SJ says, that whole 3 word thing. Of course I can admit to being an [Edit: Keep it clean, guys - SF] !
Step One: Have a Dream or Idea. ( I am voting that LU athletics has reached this stage)
Step Two: Find out what resources are needed to reach this goal. (Not sure we are there or care about that yet)
Step Three: Marshall your resources. What do you have and what do you need. Can you get them?
Step Four: Sell others on your dream and sell yourself
Step Five: GO FOR IT
Step Six: Spend more for advertising then you think you need too. (Shout out to Proto's line of work)
Step Seven: Don't expect miracles. It will take time to build your business.

That is pretty basic entreprenuriall stuff (Not that I can spell it!) Now if I relied on ex felons (unnecesary jab at ALW, but hey I said I can admit it!) to cut me checks when I needed them, well that would be a whole different ball game. Then you can go by the "Field of Dreams" theory. "If you build it they will come".

[Brokeback Flamer]

As for the Coastal comment, like I've said before, it's people like you that seriously make me reconsider my decision.[/quote]

Nothing but love for you SJ. There is room on my sheep ranch for you any day!!!

[SuperJon]

Brokeback, I admit I'm one too.



As for the sheep ranch, I'll take you up on that, but I'm locking my door.

[Brokeback Flamer]

No problem, I have a spare key somewhere.
Besides, you don't want to transfer again. Think of how many credits you will lose. And think about how many you have probably lost b/c of the registrar's office!!!

[SuperJon]

I only lost one transferring to LU, and that was from community college.

I could prolly write a book if I kept transferring. I'm at my 3rd college in 3 semesters (year of community college, Coastal, then here).

Eight Colleges In Eight Semesters - From Liberal To Conservative And Everything In Between

[TallyW]

SJ- Again.. I think your list (if you are actually tight with everyone you mention) still gives you less than a dozen voices. It doesn't make you any more of an expert. There are a little over 300 D1 schools in the country. There could be an endless combination of reasons for a student to go to any one of them. You can't make blanket statements as if you have all of the answers. Even great coaches get fired from time to time and part of the reason is poor recruiting. If you had the silver-bullet approach, you could write your book on recruiting and retire a millionare today. You don't have it... so don't act as though you do.

About Coastal... quit whining. I haven't attacked you personally about it. The only times I've mentioned it was to say that I'm sure you wouldn't want people to assume that they know your reasoning... which is exactly what you've been doing for weeks on this board. Many of us have years of memories on the mountain... We have great friends from our undergrad days and we have family who've gone there. In my case I even have youth who have ended up there and have seen their lives changed by being in that environment... so when I see you come on the board and talk about what can't happen in LU's future... it does make me feel bad for you that you don't have the big picture in mind.... LU's become so large so quickly that I'm shocked that anyone would even doubt all that LU could become.


BROKEBACK- I think LU is in stages 2-4. You can do these things at the same time. You can assess your needs as well as begin to place people around to meet those needs. We're on the front end of year 1 of a 10 year plan. The further along we go, the easier it will be to see it come together. This school for whatever reason has always had it's doubters. When something gets done well, the administration never gets the credit. When a new vision is shared, all the chicken littles come out in mass. Just wait though... the mummerings will die down as the process moves forward. The complainers will be hard to hear over the sounds of construction workers builidng a D-1 football stadium on the mountain.

[D Edcil]

So if you don't think SJ has insight into why student/athletes chose schools, why do you feel you do? If you are positing ideas you have then you have to say YOU don't have the full insight either. IMO, I look at someone who has been a college athlete, who HAS been and seen the recruiting process may have a better understanding of what athletes care about. And to state the obvious, you mention one member from your youth group, running track. if I had to make a choice about who has their finger on the pulse of athletes, i am going with SJ.
As far as LU having doubters, that should be obvious. The best explaination I have heard of the alum mentality is the old addage "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me". I have no doubt you have GREAT relationships from back in the day, everyone who went to college has those. But what also is seared in the memories of a lot of graduates is the broken promises, poor fiscal management, "interestingly" run registrar office, below standard facilities. what is my proof of this? Well there is my own experience, but to be more objective, lets look at how much our alum give back to the school. No a whole lot. LU graduates a lot of angry alumni.
LU is a great concept. In a decade, who knows what it will be like. People out in Tulsa had "Vision" in building the City of Faith, and look at it now. People had "vision" in building Jimmy Swaggart Bible College, look at it now. People, ironically enough had "Vision" in building Heritage USA, and a certain someone had "Vision" in taking it over. These endeavors were HUGE at one point, and now, not so much. Vision and Faith do not success make (How's that brokeback for Jesse Jacksonesque!).

[PAmedic]

I realize we have strayed from the original "Williams Stadium" topic but let me continue the hijack for just a second:

SJ brings up a very interesting point, which we were hashing out on the CCU board due to the whole Presby situation.

How will we attract top I-A recruits if we don't attract top I-AA recruits? It has to start somewhere, and that place is attracting the top I-AA recruits, becoming a good I-AA, then moving up to I-A and going after those kids. If it's between us and another small I-A, and they see that we weren't very good at the I-AA level and just recently moved up, they won't pick us. Kids want to win. Like I've said other places, it's better to go to a lower level and WIN than to a higher level and LOSE. Most athletes will tell you they'd rather go to a I-AA that has a chance of winning than a I-A that has no chance of even winning their conference. Winning is what's most important.

this is completely opposite CCU's argument for going to the SoCon, as shown below:
http://www.coastalfans.com/forum/viewto ... 3&start=75

Question:

I apologize- my meaning wasn't real clear in that last post. I was referring to a 7 or 8 win season in the BSOUTH- assuming losses to CSU, LU or others- and not finishing on top.

Would not running roughshod over the BSOUTH influence your desire to jump from the conf?

Answer:

Not at all...would rather suck in a great conference than be average in a bad conference.

using CCU's logic for going to the SoCon and getting beat on, Elon style, rather than dominating the BSOUTH- we should go D1A and not worry about the wins/losses, right?

lets keep it going- good discussion here.

[D Edcil]

PA you should run for office!! Very non committal!! I think one argument that could be made by the D1A'ers would be that we are not planning on being a poor D1A school. We will be, like the good reverend says, the Chrisitan version of BYU and Notre Dame.
I would also say that you may have hit on the crux of the SJ/Tally dispute. As an athlete, would you rather go to a 1AA powerhouse and win or a 1A doormat and get beat? Judging by the amount of 1A transfers on 1AA power teams, I would say kids will pick a winner. (I prefer my nose!) Don't believe me? Look at the 1AA championship teams, they have a good number of transfers from 1A and look at the salivating we had over the SLIGHT possibility the three UVA rejects caused.
My views on moving to 1A are known, and apparently it has caused me to be condemned as a no vision, whiney follower. But at least basketball season is only 6 1/2 months away!!! Then I will be back to a worthless, blind, cheater!!

[Sly Fox]

First off, I don't like the references to what athletes like discussion. It doesn't serve anybody well. Its been my observation down here in Texas that football players will go just about anywhere they can to play I-A football rather than play in the Southland or SWAC. The service academies load up on these players who hope to get even a smal glimmer of the I-A glory. Inevitably the Southland schools get a boatland of quality transfers every year.

As for the baseball/track/football discussions go, I don't think that they apply. Non-football sports don't have the I-A/I-AA division in the equation. The decision whether to play at I-AA or ride the bench at a I-A are valid.

I'm enjoying the discussion as long as we keep it civil. The public discourse is not only progressive but constructive.

[A.G.]

AG's Wednesday Morning Rant

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a big fish in a small pond. Unfortunately, the last few years we've been the pond scum in the worst pond in I-AA. We cannot even CONSIDER IA until we are consistent winners, a la Marshall (the school not the coach). They established themselves as a I-AA power before moving up--and got the fan base and the money together first and had the structure in place to succeed immediately. We don't have to be big, but we should be among the BEST at what we do. Look at FAMU--their attempt to move to I-A almost bankrupted the school. The N&A reported we had what, a multi-million dollar deficit in the athletic department running I-AA football. It would only get worse with big time football. What is the university's mission:

To produce Christ-centered men and women with the values, knowledge, and skills required to impact tomorrow’s world.

The mission is carried out for resident students, through a rigorous academic program and structured environment. It is carried out for external students in a comparable academic program but without the structure of the resident community.

LU is first and foremost and EDUCATIONAL institution. Plans to finish out a huge academic addition to The Building Formerly Known as Ericsson have already been scaled back due to budgetary problems--and this is after the classroom space had already been alocated for next year. Football going I-A would further the drain. Expanding the stadium would do the same--even if some sugar daddy paid the initial cost, you would still have increased operational costs. I don't think any of the Old Hags want to revisit the financial woes of the 90's.

My point: Be careful what you wish for. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.