[FlamesHighontheTide]

2018 Schedule:

09/01 Old Dominion
09/08 @ Army
09/15 Norfolk State
09/22 North Texas
09/29 @ New Mexico
10/06 @ New Mexico State
10/13 Troy
10/20 Idaho State
10/27 OPEN
11/03 @ UMass
11/10 @ Virginia
11/17 @ Auburn
11/24 New Mexico State

To keep with the pick up here: Lets just assume (AND I KNOW WHAT ASSUMING DOES ) that we finish off this season 8-3 at worst and keep momentum in recruiting by getting a few more three stars and a bunch of 2 stars. This would also include some immediate help from the JUCO ranks. Now, take a look at this schedule and for our first FBS season we have 7 for sure winnable games. I might even throw Troy in there as well, so 8 winnable games. With the team that we have and hopefully more accountability with our coaches and maybe some staff changes that are not the HC it is very realistic and reasonable to see LU going 6-6 in their first season.

Now 2019, and another recruiting class that I anticipate to be ranked higher than this years and I will say it now, we go bowling in 2019 with a 7-5 record and potentially 8-4. Guys, BYU is on the down and we can capitalize on it!

[Class of 20Something]

TG has been successful in his vocation. Only those bitter and ignorant would think otherwise

I think successful is an ambiguous word without anything to truly quantify it.

Turner Gill is not .500 as a head coach.

Turner Gill's Flames have had the worst records in over a decade.

Turner Gill's Flames have failed to win the Big South outright in 5 seasons.

Turner Gill has had some marquee wins(Baylor) that will resound well outside of the Liberty community, however his worst losses are too frequent for die hard fans to forget.

Considering all things available to Coach Gill, he has underperformed.

Coach #1
Overall 47-20
BSC 26-5

Coach #2
Overall 38-27
BSC 20-7

Coach #1 Danny Rocco
Coach #2 Turner Gill

Granted Gill has faced 10 FBS teams to Rocco's 5. Even if 5 we give Gill 5 FBS games as FCS wins, there is still an inferior record. At the least, this program has plateaued under Coach Gill. Someone correct me if I am wrong, Liberty did not share the Big South Championship under Coach Rocco.

In 2011 the 7-4 Flames were 2nd in the Big South

In 2016 the 6-5 Flames were T-1st in the Big South

Just some numbers to argue.

[Purple Haize]

TG has been successful in his vocation. Only those bitter and ignorant would think otherwise

I think successful is an ambiguous word without anything to truly quantify it.

Turner Gill is not .500 as a head coach.

Turner Gill's Flames have had the worst records in over a decade.

Turner Gill's Flames have failed to win the Big South outright in 5 seasons.

Turner Gill has had some marquee wins(Baylor) that will resound well outside of the Liberty community, however his worst losses are too frequent for die hard fans to forget.

Considering all things available to Coach Gill, he has underperformed.

Coach #1
Overall 47-20
BSC 26-5

Coach #2
Overall 38-27
BSC 20-7

Coach #1 Danny Rocco
Coach #2 Turner Gill

Granted Gill has faced 10 FBS teams to Rocco's 5. Even if 5 we give Gill 5 FBS games as FCS wins, there is still an inferior record. At the least, this program has plateaued under Coach Gill. Someone correct me if I am wrong, Liberty did not share the Big South Championship under Coach Rocco.

In 2011 the 7-4 Flames were 2nd in the Big South

In 2016 the 6-5 Flames were T-1st in the Big South

Just some numbers to argue.

Good numbers. And ‘Success’ can be ambiguous. W-L records are one way to gauge it. But if you move from one rebuilding project to another you’re going to take a hit on that W-L record. If you want to debate if the LU program is Better, Worse, Same under him, that’s a great debate.
But to come out and unequivocally say Gill has not been successful anywhere he has ever been is patently untrue and ignorant. Be it coach or player.

[FlamesHighontheTide]

Not trying to be a butt, but we shared 3 conference titles under Rocco. 09 to 11 were all shared while 07 and 08 were out-right titles. We can make excuses all day but I do think your on point that we have plateaued. . .BUT let us see how this year finishes. I know a lot of us think we are in for another 6-5 or 7-4 season, but I still feel like this team wants to prove something. Every time I hear Solomon McGinty speak to reporters I guzzle down the kool-aid again. Let's hope it's not spiked.

And I think when it comes down to it, Gill has put Liberty more on the map than Rocco ever did. FBS wins(3 of them), playoff win and both men won conference championships(whether shared or not) in all but 1 of their coaching tenures at LU. Both had players drafted in the NFL too.

[Chippy]

Rocco had the advantage of playing 1-2 D2 teams each year as well. When he first got here he got some UVA GSs come with him (OL and PK) and Rashard Jennings landed on his lap for 3 years. I imagine Gill's record would be better if we had another RJ transfer into LU. If Josh Woodrum had a running back like RJ then all this comparison talk would be moot.

[Purple Haize]

Rocco had the advantage of playing 1-2 D2 teams each year as well. When he first got here he got some UVA GSs come with him (OL and PK) and Rashard Jennings landed on his lap for 3 years. I imagine Gill's record would be better if we had another RJ transfer into LU. If Josh Woodrum had a running back like RJ then all this comparison talk would be moot.

Again, if we want to compare and contrast Gill’s record at LU that’s fine. But to say Gill has never been successful anywhere he’s ever been is ludicrous and what I’m taking issue with.

[flameshaw]

Rocco had the advantage of playing 1-2 D2 teams each year as well. When he first got here he got some UVA GSs come with him (OL and PK) and Rashard Jennings landed on his lap for 3 years. I imagine Gill's record would be better if we had another RJ transfer into LU. If Josh Woodrum had a running back like RJ then all this comparison talk would be moot.

Again, if we want to compare and contrast Gill’s record at LU that’s fine. But to say Gill has never been successful anywhere he’s ever been is ludicrous and what I’m taking issue with.

Gill has never been successful anywhere he has ever been as a head c oach. You are just being argumentative because you have no answer for that statement. I understand, I would hate to defend him against that fact.
I am still waiting to hear where we are better off than we were 5 years ago, when he arrived. I am giving you QB, maybe I am missing something? Would still like to hear how likely you think he would be hired as a FCS or FBS if we fired hIm after the year is over. His name isn't ever in the rumor mill that I know of.
Doesn't matter what his record is vs. DR. We are not a better team than we were 5 years ago. Maybe you can convince someone, anyone we are. Can't wait to see it

[Purple Haize]

Rocco had the advantage of playing 1-2 D2 teams each year as well. When he first got here he got some UVA GSs come with him (OL and PK) and Rashard Jennings landed on his lap for 3 years. I imagine Gill's record would be better if we had another RJ transfer into LU. If Josh Woodrum had a running back like RJ then all this comparison talk would be moot.

Again, if we want to compare and contrast Gill’s record at LU that’s fine. But to say Gill has never been successful anywhere he’s ever been is ludicrous and what I’m taking issue with.

Gill has never been successful anywhere he has ever been as a head c oach. You are just being argumentative because you have no answer for that statement. I understand, I would hate to defend him against that fact.

I can’t believe you’d call CIDER a liar

Gill has not been successful anywhere he has ever been. We will not win any more than 2-4 games next year. Time to move on. Too many bad losses.

Buffalo called and Nebraska is waiting on line 2

HCTG won an FBS conference championship in 2008 and took Buffalo to a bowl game. Even the great DR has never done that.

Fox Sports?
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2010/08/2 ... egacy.html

Maybe a Higher Education periodical?
http://diverseeducation.com/article/13269/

Charles Barkley and a Blogger maybe?
http://thestartingfive.net/2008/12/09/c ... uburn-job/

What about his peeps in Lincoln?
https://www.cornnation.com/2007/11/28/9032/6440

Even getting fired from Kansas they acknowledged he had been previously successful
http://uwire.com/2011/11/28/turner-gill ... o-seasons/

So.....

EDIT

Even Liberals agree he was successful Here’s the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/sport ... hoden.html

A Libertarian calls what Gill did at Buffalo the greatest turn around in College Football History
https://books.google.com/books?id=mCPin ... lo&f=false

On a theoretical level he’s better than Saban
https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2015/ ... r-timeouts



But obviously you know so much more

[Jonathan Carone]

Turner Gill is an incredible man and human being. Unfortunately, he’s an average football coach.

Comparing Gill and Rocco straight up isn’t fair to either coach because philosophies administratively were so different under the two. The Big South was also a drastically different conference during each tenure.

Getting talent to Liberty has never been an issue. Even Ken Karcher was able to recruit talent. Gill has gotten his fair share of talent to Liberty. Developing that talent and creating a consistent winning game plans with that talent has been his biggest issue. He’s taken us to great highs but there have also been quite a few very low points.

It’s simply time to make the switch. I have no ill will towards Coach Gill or his staff. We are stagnant though and things are only going to get harder moving forward. Let’s go ahead and make the change as we transition to FBS and then hopefully we can hit the ground running from there.

[Purple Haize]

Turner Gill is an incredible man and human being. Unfortunately, he’s an average football coach.

Comparing Gill and Rocco straight up isn’t fair to either coach because philosophies administratively were so different under the two. The Big South was also a drastically different conference during each tenure.

Getting talent to Liberty has never been an issue. Even Ken Karcher was able to recruit talent. Gill has gotten his fair share of talent to Liberty. Developing that talent and creating a consistent winning game plans with that talent has been his biggest issue. He’s taken us to great highs but there have also been quite a few very low points.

It’s simply time to make the switch. I have no ill will towards Coach Gill or his staff. We are stagnant though and things are only going to get harder moving forward. Let’s go ahead and make the change as we transition to FBS and then hopefully we can hit the ground running from there.

Whether or not he is the right man going forward is a pretty legitimate debate. Saying he has never been successful anywhere as a HC is not.

[flameshaw]

Still waiting to hear what part of the team is better than when he came here 5 years ago. Still waiting to hear where you think he will end up if we do the smart thing and fire him. FCS, FBS?

[flameshaw]

Again, if we want to compare and contrast Gill’s record at LU that’s fine. But to say Gill has never been successful anywhere he’s ever been is ludicrous and what I’m taking issue with.

Gill has never been successful anywhere he has ever been as a head c oach. You are just being argumentative because you have no answer for that statement. I understand, I would hate to defend him against that fact.

I can’t believe you’d call CIDER a liar

Fox Sports?
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2010/08/2 ... egacy.html

Maybe a Higher Education periodical?
http://diverseeducation.com/article/13269/

Charles Barkley and a Blogger maybe?
http://thestartingfive.net/2008/12/09/c ... uburn-job/

What about his peeps in Lincoln?
https://www.cornnation.com/2007/11/28/9032/6440

Even getting fired from Kansas they acknowledged he had been previously successful
http://uwire.com/2011/11/28/turner-gill ... o-seasons/

So.....

EDIT

Even Liberals agree he was successful Here’s the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/12/sport ... hoden.html

A Libertarian calls what Gill did at Buffalo the greatest turn around in College Football History
https://books.google.com/books?id=mCPin ... lo&f=false

On a theoretical level he’s better than Saban
https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2015/ ... r-timeouts



But obviously you know so much more

I can post a thousand articles where obama was considered the most successful president we ever had and should be put up on Mt. Rushmore, doesn't make it true or even remotely believable. Maybe you are in that camp too? Your bar for "success" is obviously ridiculously low. W&L's are not everything, but he was 20-30 at Buffalo, I guess that is success? Hard to argue he was a success at Kansas, run out of town , no other suitors. LU comes calling, seems to be a good fit, good hire, personally I am excited about the hire. After 5 years, we are no better that when he arrived. Maybe that is a warped definition of success, but not to most. No improvement in 5 years would get you fired, real fast, at any job I ever held.
I was with 30+ former LU athletes yesterday, zero positive comments, a few benign comments, many negative comments, all unsolicited, just guys talking. "But obviously you know so much more". Time to move on my friend. Maybe we need a beer summit? My treat.

[FlamesHighontheTide]

I think not just QB, but WR, DE, K, P have all been upgraded during the Gill era and one could argue that the Defensive backfield has as well with the accolades that Walt Aikens, Jacob Hagen, Kevin Fogg, Rion Davis, Chris Turner, Jeremy Peters and Brandon Tillmon have received or are receiving.

[flameshaw]

I think not just QB, but WR, DE, K, P have all been upgraded during the Gill era and one could argue that the Defensive backfield has as well with the accolades that Walt Aikens, Jacob Hagen, Kevin Fogg, Rion Davis, Chris Turner, Jeremy Peters and Brandon Tillmon have received or are receiving.

And most of those players were here when Gill got here, not his recruits. You are helping make my point. It is fair now, after 5 years to look back and determine a simple question. Is the team better now than when Gill arrived here 5 years ago? There has been a complete turnover in the roster, some wins and losses can be attributed to players that Rocco recruited and some that Gill recruited. Looking at the BSC records only, same teams played, our record has been worse under Gill. The overall program is not in better shape than when Gill arrived. The WR's are no better, the DL is no better, the LB's are no better, the DB's are no better, the Ol is no better, the RB's are no better, the kicking game is no better (probably a push), special teams are no better. Just to make it easy. Is the team better now than on day one when Gill walked in the door? I don't think so at all. Not sure how anyone can say we are, but I am more that willing to be convinced otherwise.

[olldflame]

I think not just QB, but WR, DE, K, P have all been upgraded during the Gill era and one could argue that the Defensive backfield has as well with the accolades that Walt Aikens, Jacob Hagen, Kevin Fogg, Rion Davis, Chris Turner, Jeremy Peters and Brandon Tillmon have received or are receiving.

And most of those players were here when Gill got here, not his recruits. You are helping make my point. It is fair now, after 5 years to look back and determine a simple question. Is the team better now than when Gill arrived here 5 years ago? There has been a complete turnover in the roster, some wins and losses can be attributed to players that Rocco recruited and some that Gill recruited. Looking at the BSC records only, same teams played, our record has been worse under Gill. The overall program is not in better shape than when Gill arrived. The WR's are no better, the DL is no better, the LB's are no better, the DB's are no better, the Ol is no better, the RB's are no better, the kicking game is no better (probably a push), special teams are no better. Just to make it easy. Is the team better now than on day one when Gill walked in the door? I don't think so at all. Not sure how anyone can say we are, but I am more that willing to be convinced otherwise.

That would actually be inaccurate since "most" is generally accepted to mean a majority, and 4 of the 7 players mentioned are Gill recruits. Your point is taken however, in that Aikens is in the NFL, Fogg had a great year in the CFL last year and Hagen has been on the verge of making the Steeler's roster the last 2 years. The jury is out on the other 4, but they are good DBs. I think Turner and Tillman both have pro potential.

It's really apples and oranges to compare the BSC records of the 2 coaches. We may complain it is a bad conference now, but compared to the dumpster fire it was back then, the current BSC looks like the SEC.

[ballah09]

I think not just QB, but WR, DE, K, P have all been upgraded during the Gill era and one could argue that the Defensive backfield has as well with the accolades that Walt Aikens, Jacob Hagen, Kevin Fogg, Rion Davis, Chris Turner, Jeremy Peters and Brandon Tillmon have received or are receiving.

Disagree. Flamshaw said it best.

Fogg, Hagen, Aikens. Were all Rocco recruits. Turner can't tackle and the jury is still out on Peters. You can't say he upgraded at all. Special teams has been terrible under Gill. How many coaches has he gone through again? He hasn't recruited any depth at the LB and DE position at all hence the reason his defense can't stop the run.

The fact is he has one of the best facilities, unlimited budget and lets not forget a lot less strict Liberty Way. He has no excuses to be struggling against Big South teams and losing to inferior teams.

[ballcoach15]

We should never lose to BSC team. Take Jacksonville State in Ohio Valley Conference, they have won something like 34 straight OVC games. We should have a streak like that in BSC.

[Purple Haize]

Still waiting to hear what part of the team is better than when he came here 5 years ago. Still waiting to hear where you think he will end up if we do the smart thing and fire him. FCS, FBS?

You are just wanting to change the topic. I'm taking issue with your statement about Gill never being successful anywhere he's ever been....as a head coach. You are the one who keeps trying to avoid that topic now. I mean first it was successful anywhere. Then when that was proven laughably inaccurate you said HC. Now that statement has also proven folly you keep wanting to change the topic.
If you want to debate whether LU is better, worse or the same under Gill that's an entirely different topic. But if you are going to smear a mans name and reputation then I'm going to defend it. That is the topic you broached. Own it

[flameshaw]

PH, you should quit while you are so far behind buddy. You are trying real hard to covince yourself of something, not sure of what. Still waiting for the answer to my ?, where are we better? Until then please feel free to continue argue with yourself.
The beer is still on me.

[Purple Haize]

Gill has not been successful anywhere he has ever been. We will not win any more than 2-4 games next year. Time to move on. Too many bad losses.

These are your words that I'm taking issue with. You smeared the mans reputation and I'm defending it. I have provided proof of his success as a player. As an assistant coach and finally as a head coach. Now apparently you want to narrow it down to whether or not he has been successful here at LU.
So you can wait all you want for the answers to your other questions because those are completely irrelevant to the libelous quote above. I will not be swayed or distracted from your original comment until it is retracted So feel free to try and deflect but your statement is vile and I will continue to point that out

And keep your beer. I can buy my own

[flameshaw]

You my friend have proved nothing.You know what the discussion was about. I thought you were just acting dumb on purpose, now I am not so sure. You keep deflecting from the issue , can't say as I blame you though.

[Purple Haize]

You my friend have proved nothing.You know what the discussion was about. I thought you were just acting dumb on purpose, now I am not so sure. You keep deflecting from the issue , can't say as I blame you though.

How is quoting the exact words you used deflecting from the issue? The discussion was about you saying TG has never been successful anywhere he’s been. Then you changed it to ‘as a head coach’. Both statements are wrong. And I’m not the only one saying that. I posted articles saying how successful he was at Buffalo. He was universally lauded for what he was able to do there. I have not seen you post anyone anywhere saying his time at Buffalo was a failure.

[LUinPA]

I guess my initial post should not have referenced so much on field player personalities and more the way they are being used by the coaches to execute a game plan. The level of game management, staffing and game execution is causing me the concern moving forward.

This game management recently occurred during the 1:04 min left prior to the half of a recent game. We had two time outs and clearly needed points on the board but our offensive staff left it on the field. “Not the players,” but the coaching staff. This reminded me of Coach Layers final game with CC where he walked over, shook hands and began exiting the court before the game ended. What was happening on the field and sidelines to warrant wasting 1min and 2 time outs in any game besides blowout in our favor.

I agree with all the positional review talk taking place here, but what about simple team management and game execution. The last 3 games of play calling are driving me to scratch my head; i.e. see other post labeled, “Last 8 Quarters, GIF.

Therefore, considering the challenges that await us in less than 11 months, I will be purchasing a ticket on the “Time to move on from GILL Train,” if we lose to any team listed under a BIG SOUTH label, Oh wait, that’s the rest of our schedule.

October 14, 2017: Liberty Family Travel Itinerary

3:00pm: Waiting on train platform
4:00pm: Eating some snacks
5:00pm: Keeping Kids Occupied
6:00pm: Train is seen in the distance
Approx. 6:15pm: “Fire Gill Train” arrives at station
7:00pm: Train departs station with a few more passengers on board than originally ticketed
Approx. 7:30pm: the train stops to add passenger cars, the last one is really new and shiny (William Bryon)
8:00pm: Train runs out of snacks
8:30pm: Kids begin crying and parents stress increases
9:00pm: Train makes unannounced stop at station and this happens……

[Purple Haize]

I guess my initial post should not have referenced so much on field player personalities and more the way they are being used by the coaches to execute a game plan. The level of game management, staffing and game execution is causing me the concern moving forward.

This game management recently occurred during the 1:04 min left prior to the half of a recent game. We had two time outs and clearly needed points on the board but our offensive staff left it on the field. “Not the players,” but the coaching staff. This reminded me of Coach Layers final game with CC where he walked over, shook hands and began exiting the court before the game ended. What was happening on the field and sidelines to warrant wasting 1min and 2 time outs in any game besides blowout in our favor.

I agree with all the positional review talk taking place here, but what about simple team management and game execution. The last 3 games of play calling are driving me to scratch my head; i.e. see other post labeled, “Last 8 Quarters, GIF.

Therefore, considering the challenges that await us in less than 11 months, I will be purchasing a ticket on the “Time to move on from GILL Train,” if we lose to any team listed under a BIG SOUTH label, Oh wait, that’s the rest of our schedule.

October 14, 2017: Liberty Family Travel Itinerary

3:00pm: Waiting on train platform
4:00pm: Eating some snacks
5:00pm: Keeping Kids Occupied
6:00pm: Train is seen in the distance
Approx. 6:15pm: “Fire Gill Train” arrives at station
7:00pm: Train departs station with a few more passengers on board than originally ticketed
Approx. 7:30pm: the train stops to add passenger cars, the last one is really new and shiny (William Bryon)
8:00pm: Train runs out of snacks
8:30pm: Kids begin crying and parents stress increases
9:00pm: Train makes unannounced stop at station and this happens……

That’s funny right there

[adam42381]

You my friend have proved nothing.You know what the discussion was about. I thought you were just acting dumb on purpose, now I am not so sure. You keep deflecting from the issue , can't say as I blame you though.

How is quoting the exact words you used deflecting from the issue? The discussion was about you saying TG has never been successful anywhere he’s been. Then you changed it to ‘as a head coach’. Both statements are wrong. And I’m not the only one saying that. I posted articles saying how successful he was at Buffalo. He was universally lauded for what he was able to do there. I have not seen you post anyone anywhere saying his time at Buffalo was a failure.

Perhaps you are the only one that didn't understand what flameshaw meant, PH. The discussion is about Liberty's current head coach and his lack of success at the job, so it's strongly implied that the discussion revolves around his head coaching career. You're getting too hung up on the literal meaning of flameshaw's statement. Hypothetically, if one were to say that Jr. has always been an arrogant blowhard, it would be understood that this statement related to his professional career and it most likely would be assumed that this was in reference to his tenure at Liberty. It would not be necessary to go back and attack this statement based on the fact that he may or may not have been an arrogant blowhard as a child.