[Realist]

Or I just needed a break from work. It's been awhile since I've engaged in some banter on here. Anyways, I have kept up the league in general this year, so yes, I do have some interest, simply b/c it's the Big South, but if you asked me whether I cared or not about us starting a program, no, I really don't think it's a good idea. Too much money at the expense of other sports that compete on the premier level, not the step down. To me, it's competing to be the 114 (or however many D1a programs there are) best team in the nation if you win the D1aa national title, whereas any other sport you technically have the shot at the national title.

[prototype]

Do you really think that Winthrop has a better chance to win a National Title in any sport more than Liberty? When is that last time a school without a Football Team won a National Title in another sport?

[Sly Fox]

My guess would be Johns Hopkins in lax. But your point is essentially valid.

[WinthropEagleFan]

Do you really think that Winthrop has a better chance to win a National Title in any sport more than Liberty? When is that last time a school without a Football Team won a National Title in another sport?

Portland won a women's soccer nat'l championship last year...
Cal State-Fullerton won a baseball championship a couple of years ago...
It has been a while, but Old Dominion has won a women's basketball championship I think...
And no, they didn't win it all, but George Mason was in the Final Four last year in men's basketball.....

So it doesn't happen often, but it happens.

I'd be happy if WU had a football team, but I don't see it happening any time soon (and I don't want them to sacrifice/cut funds to other existing sports in order to get it done)...The Title IX implications alone would be extremely expensive for WU (no existing I-A or I-AA football school has a female/male ratio as high as WU)...

[Realist]

Yes, WU does have a better chance at winning a national title simply b/c of baseball. Always in the top 25 or right at it. Usually in the tourney. And a baseball team on a hot streak can win it all, a lot different than football or b-ball. Soccer program is right in that area too. Football at the D1aa level isn't helping your other sports, it's hurting them.

[prototype]

Winthrop - thanks for the research. I just know it's not common.

Realist - I think you are wrong. Baseball? I have a better chance to suit up and play quarterback for the Patriots this weekend.

And one thing you are completely wrong about is Football hurting our overall program. All sports at the college level help promote the other sports. Football is another sport which shines a light on Athletics at your school. Whether it's a good light or a bad light, it's another chance to get the University's name out there. And to compete in recruiting, name recognition is very important. Your basketball team is good now - but kids like to go to schools with football - especially in the states. Gonzaga - is the exception - but if you notice a lot of there athletes are International students. You have been pretty lucky in recruiting some good players - I have some inside info that says that 2 of your "big time" high schoolers your are currently recruiting are about to commit at Liberty.

The only way a Big South school will win a National Championship are in the Olympic Sports. We have a runner that will be a National Champion the next 2 years in CC and Track, our track program is the only sport in Big South History that has ever been ranked in the top 3. We have the only team to ever advance to the final 16 in any sport that plays a tournament style.

And a heads up - we will win the Big South in Men's and Women's Basketball this year. We have made a huge step, point being, it's easier to make bigger steps by having a complete athletic program and believe it or not - Football is a major sport, whether it's 1A or 1AA.

[jcmanson]

Wow proto, quite a statement by saying we will win in both mens and womens hoops this year. Although, if I had to pick I would pick us, but still hard to come out and say it straight up.

[A.G.]

Perhaps he is stating that football is a drain on resources and, as a result, hurts other sports. That football is a huge financial drain is a point that can't be argued. How much of last year's deficit was football-related?

[Realist]

Proto, you're talking out of your rear end. Liberty isn't coming close to recruiting what WU is in basketball right now. I would check your sources b/c I'm sure of mine.

Football is a drain, it may get an occassional cross sport athlete but it has no effect otherwise on recruitment. If I'm a recruit in one sport I don't care how good their football team is, just how good they are in my sport. Would I support a D1a football program? Of course, there are bowl implications and that has a positive effect on the university. Otherwise, it's just a drain to other sports for nothing more than a glorified 114 place finish.

I forgot about Olympic sports and what you said is true, though no one ever hears about those sports. If you win in baseball, you will get recognition, and say what you want, but WU and in years past, Coastal, were only a couple of breaks from a super regional and baseball is a sport that you can get hot and win it all.

Claiming you will win the Big South is men's bball is a pretty foolish statement. You won 7 games last year. I wouldn't be surprised if you are improved, but that is just bravado and posturing that makes you look like an immature teenager, which, I would expect, you are.

[prototype]

Now this stat could have changed in the last few years, but I doubt it. In 2000, there were only 3 Division 1A Football programs that made money. Tenn, USC, and Michigen. Why, becuase their stadiums are huge.

Football is not a money sport, but believe me - we spend a lot of money on all sports here at Liberty. Way more than most programs in the country. I don't think if we dropped football, LU would be willing to throw excess money into the other programs anyway. It cost a lot to runa football program, YES, but it cost a lot of money to market a College and having a football team that genrates excitment on any level is huge.

[PAmedic]

but that is just bravado and posturing that makes you look like an immature teenager, which, I would expect, you are.

oh Lordy I needed THAT!

Realist, for the record- PROTO is our resident marketing guru and his firm handles a lot, if not all of the sports marketing for LU. He designed the new logo and is behind many of the recent upgrades in the PR facet of our athletics program.

[prototype]

Claiming you will win the Big South is men's bball is a pretty foolish statement. You won 7 games last year. I wouldn't be surprised if you are improved, but that is just bravado and posturing that makes you look like an immature teenager, which, I would expect, you are.

No, I'm actually 5, but I like your passion:) I love heated posting and I want to debate points, not read nice postings that try and appease both sides. I do think we will win the BS in Men's Basketball this year. That's a fact. Either you have no idea who will be playing for us this year, or you think Winthrop is really that good. You played with Tenn - Big Deal - You lost to us (That bad team you referred to earlier) 2 weeks before that game. Tenn. was over-rated and you were on top of your game that night. We were beating the #1 team in the Nation 10 years ago (UNC) with 8 minutes to go. The team is entirely different this year. And we are not talking potential, we are talking transfers that will instantly improve our program. You think Martin is better than Brewington? How many Big East/ACC schools recruited him? We have the one element this year - we didn't have last year - Big Men. You better win this year, because next year Liberty will be in a league of their own with Brew, Bannister, 6'7" 270 ACC Transfer, Jenkins and crew. It will be like College of Charleston all over again - who else plays in that league?

[PAmedic]

now that's some SERIOUS smack.

Love it!

[LUconn]

You have been pretty lucky in recruiting some good players - I have some inside info that says that 2 of your "big time" high schoolers your are currently recruiting are about to commit at Liberty.

This has my ears perked. Do tell.

[prototype]

LU Conn - Can't say anything yet, but I will let you know when it becomes official. We are not in the same class recruiting wise????

Hey, I'm Coach Marshall - "Do you want to play at my school - we don't have football, but were really good at Baseball and we lost to Tenn., Gonzaga, Nothwestern State in the NCAA. You might get exposure if we do it again"

or

Hey I'm Coach Dunton - "You want to play with Dwight Brewington from Providence, TJ Bannister, and 6'7" 270 ACC Transfer. For a University of over 10,000 students and every game is broadcast Nationwide on 2 Networks. That's right - your Grandparents and every NBA scout will be able to watch you play or do you want to sit on your butt all fall waiting for sports to begin and play for a coach that wears 6 button jackets?"

Yeah - your right Realist - as my Teenage buddies say - "Your team ROCKS!!"

[WinthropEagleFan]

We have the only team to ever advance to the final 16 in any sport that plays a tournament style.

I like this topic, but I gotta run right now so I'll comment more later, but I wanted to point out that Coastal's soccer team made it to the sweet 16 a few years ago...

[prototype]

Thanks WinthropEagle. We like CCU - so that's cool:)

I do remember that - their team was stacked, but still had little to chance to go all the way. About as much chance as our girls did 2 years ago. But, as a person who pulls for the underdog - I would root for any team to win from the Big South. OK - maybe not Winthrop or CCU. But that's only because their the BSC pets.

[jcmanson]

I would not root for Winthrop myself. Anyother big south team except for Winthrop, and maybe CCU.

[Purple Haize]

Do you really think that Winthrop has a better chance to win a National Title in any sport more than Liberty? When is that last time a school without a Football Team won a National Title in another sport?

Georgetown and I am pretty sure UConn (Men and Women) won basketball titles before their respective schools had football. Can you call Duke's team a football team? Or Temple??? And while they havent won a national title in MBB Gonzaga does not have a football team. However, it has been quite sometime since a non fb school has cut down the nets in March

[TallyW]

Boy am I loving this thread. Keep it up.

[prototype]

Haize - Georgetown did not have football between 1951 and 1963 and indeed did have football in 1984 and 85. Here is an excerpt from the 1984 Season-

# 1984-The Hoyas suffer their worst season in school history, losing all eight games. A winless record is averted in the record books after a 56-6 loss to Catholic University is ruled a forfeit after Catholic was found to be using an ineligible player.


UConn also had a football team during their championships - what your thinking about, was a couple of years ago - they moved up to 1A.

I agree with your Duke & Temple Comments, but they still have a team that wears jerseys and goes out every Saturday and plays. Kids see there scores in the paper every Sunday.

And I made a point about Gonzaga - they have concentrated on International players - I'm not sure if they play football out of the states:)

[thesportscritic]

Duke can wait for Basketball at the start of their school year. Football is definitely a joke for the dukies. This is a nice thread. now about the Men's basketball team winning the Big South, that is a bold statement proto. But I will believe it when i see it. We won only 7 games last year. At least we have some more talent but we don't know what we are dealing with until the ball goes up in the air in November.

[WinthropEagleFan]

Do you really think that Winthrop has a better chance to win a National Title in any sport more than Liberty? When is that last time a school without a Football Team won a National Title in another sport?

This question has intrigued me all day...so I did a little bit of digging. I kept trying to think of I-AA and non-football schools that had won nat'l championships, but except for the examples I had already come up with, I was coming up blank. So I began to wonder, does having a I-AA football program lead to having better sports programs overall than having no football?

Here's what I did...I took a look at all of the sports that Winthrop and/or Liberty compete in...so I didn't look at sports such as men's volleyball, water polo, lacrosse, etc. I decided to look at the last ten years, and here's what I found in regards to nat'l titles won by Div. I-AA and/or non football schools (Div I-AAA):

Men's Cross Country - 0 I-AA, 0 I-AAA
Women's XC - 1 (Villanova), 0
Men's Soccer - 2 (UConn & St. John's), 0 -note, when UConn won their title, their football team had not yet moved up to I-A, so I included them...St. John's doesn't currently have football, but when they won their title, they did field a I-AA team
Women's Soccer - 0, 3 (Portland twice & Santa Clara)
Volleyball - 0, 1 (Long Beach State) - Long Beach State used to field a I-AA team, but their volleyball title came after they dropped the program.
Men's Basketball - 1 (UConn in 1999), 0 - UConn has won another title, but it was when they were I-A
Women's Basketball - 2 (UConn in 2000 & 2002), 0 - UConn has a couple of other titles, but they were when they were I-A
Men's Indoor Track - 0, 1 (George Mason)
Women's Indoor Track - 0, 0
Wrestling - 0, 0
Baseball - 0, 1 (Cal State-Fullerton)
Men's Golf - 0, 1 (Pepperdine)
Women's Golf - 0, 0
Softball - 0, 0
Men's Tennis - 0, 1 (Pepperdine)
Women's Tennis - 0, 0
Men's Outdoor Track - 0, 1 (George Mason)
Women's Outdoor Track - 0, 0

So based on what I found (all of this came from NCAAsports.com, and I did it quickly, so I could have overlooked something), I-AA teams have won 6 nat'l titles and non-football teams have won 9 titles. So does having I-AA football help other sports? I don't know if it does...at least not enough to win nat'l titles. Now obviously, you can say that having I-A football does help, as I-A teams have won the remaining 165 titles that I looked at...

Now of course, none of this really proves if Winthrop or Liberty are more capable than the other to win a nat'l title, but I think the factors that go into having a nat'l championship team for either school is based on a ton of factors other than football...

[Purple Haize]

Haize - Georgetown did not have football between 1951 and 1963 and indeed did have football in 1984 and 85. Here is an excerpt from the 1984 Season-

# 1984-The Hoyas suffer their worst season in school history, losing all eight games. A winless record is averted in the record books after a 56-6 loss to Catholic University is ruled a forfeit after Catholic was found to be using an ineligible player.


UConn also had a football team during their championships - what your thinking about, was a couple of years ago - they moved up to 1A.

I agree with your Duke & Temple Comments, but they still have a team that wears jerseys and goes out every Saturday and plays. Kids see there scores in the paper every Sunday.

And I made a point about Gonzaga - they have concentrated on International players - I'm not sure if they play football out of the states:)

I was thinking of upper level football. I realized that after I posted. Thanks for the clarification. However, coming from a non football school myself, I am not sure having a football team makes you a "real school". Since I am not D1 obsessed, I would bring in all of the other divisions and NAIA, and pre 1992 NCCAA schools. But since non of these are Big South Schools then it would be a moot point for the board

[Realist]

LU was 7 and 28 or something like that last year. Winthrop is a dynasty. Maybe your 0-11 football team will entice some recruits, not sure. Anyways, the win loss record speaks for itself. I'm sure recruits want to come play for a school that has been bottom of the RPI for the last ten years, and has a dress code and social life of a graveyard, you've sold me. Brewington is a providence alum. The same Providence Winthrop handled on their own homecourt. Torrell Martin is the BSC Tourney MVP and Dwight Brewington is a headcase who couldn't cut it in the Big East. The problem not lies in how good he is but his head. Winthrop has champions in basketball. LU has a bunch transfers who don't know team ball. They will improve, but it's pure stupidity to expect a title. LU is not even in Winthrop's class in basketball, and never will be.