Anything and everything about Liberty Flames football. Your comments on games, recruiting and the direction of the program as we move into new era.
By ballcoach15
#540620 We have played better vs FBS schools over the years than we have vs many FCS schools. I can't recall us getting embarrassed by a FBS school, but there has been some embarrassing loses to FBS schools.
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By flameshaw
#540630
ballcoach15 wrote:We have played better vs FBS schools over the years than we have vs many FCS schools. I can't recall us getting embarrassed by a FBS school, but there has been some embarrassing loses to FBS schools.


True, but a couple of things to consider. First, when a FBS team plays a FCS team, there is a natural tendency to take the opponent for granted. Finally, most of our FBS games have been the first game of the year. Gill won't have 8 months to put together a game plan between games, when we are playing a FBS schedule.
By willflop
#540635 I think Gill could do at LU what he did at Buffalo, which amounts to seasons around 5/7, with an occasional 7/5 every 3-4 years.
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By R i
#540639
BigRed1 wrote:
R i wrote:We will win more than 2-3 per year with Gill.

I really hope you’re right, but I don’t see it happening. With the lack of success Gill has had with an FCS schedule, I doubt he will have very much success against stronger opponents. I would sincerely like to know why you think he is going to be able to do what he’s failed to do so far. I would love to hear your take on this.



He has always won more than 2-3 games, so he has not failed to do that so far.

As far as transitioning, he will be able to get better recruiting classes. This years class is disappointing so far, but better than years past when we were recruiting to FCS BigSouth competition.

I am not a Gill apologist, but to say he would not win more than 2 games a year is kind of RiDiculous.
By olldflame
#540643 Saying that because he is winning 6 or 7 a year in FCS means he will win substantially less in FBS is assuming there will be no upgrade in talent. While the jury is still out on this first FBS recruiting class, there is movement in the right direction. More importantly, the big picture track record of all schools in all sports shows that when you move up, you will be able to recruit better players, although it is not a!ways an instantaneous transformation.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540645 Our talent level hasn’t been our problem. We’ve had more talent than every Big South team not named Coastal and even then we were likely even with Coastal.
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By Class of 20Something
#540646 Can we pump the brakes on the recruiting evaluation?

Lets project that we get two more 3* recruits this class and compare it to the 2017 classes in the lower G5 conferences.

Five 3* recruits puts us at
-8/14 in the CUSA
-7/12 in the SBC
-9/12 in the MAC
-Over Army's three 3* recruits last season.

If we push that number to eight 3* for the 2019 class
-Still 8/14 in the CUSA
-3/12 in the SBC
-6/12 in the MAC
-Tied with UMass at eight.

We will only garner more attention with more FBS opponents.
By olldflame
#540647
Jonathan Carone wrote:Our talent level hasn’t been our problem. We’ve had more talent than every Big South team not named Coastal and even then we were likely even with Coastal.


The primary challenge to playing an FBS schedule will not be the calibre of the coaching we face; it will be the talent of the players. If we can upgrade that, I see no reason why our W/L record should take a big dive. I am not saying we cannot or should not upgrade the coaching as well. Hopefully IM will be given the authority to make that call.

And speaking of Ian McCaw, isn't it amazing the how quickly the controversy over his hire has faded. JLFJR has his flaws, like all of us, but he is a smart cookie, and it's looking more and more like he pulled off a major coup in landing Ian.
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By R i
#540648 Hiring a football coach could be difficult for Ian. He will likely have to hire someone that knows him personally. The cloud of TitleIX at Baylor, could shrink the candidate pool pretty significantly.

I agree, Ian has been worth it so far, and I have no doubts he can hire a great coach if need be.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540649
olldflame wrote:The primary challenge to playing an FBS schedule will not be the calibre of the coaching we face; it will be the talent of the players.


We have been getting beat while having superior talent for three years. Why would that change at a higher level? The disappointment would just be greater.
By olldflame
#540650
R i wrote:Hiring a football coach could be difficult for Ian. He will likely have to hire someone that knows him personally. The cloud of TitleIX at Baylor, could shrink the candidate pool pretty significantly.

I agree, Ian has been worth it so far, and I have no doubts he can hire a great coach if need be.


I don't see what happened at Baylor having any significant impact on Ian's ability to hire a football coach, whether he knows the man personally or not. Unlike Ken Starr and his cohorts, our leadership has a robust Title IX compliance system in place, something he did in spite of the fact he doesn't like the way the law is being enforced, but he realized the pragmatic need for it. Add to that the fact that, while they are certainly not all "angels", we do screen the character of our recruits more carefully than most schools, and I think a lot of possible coaches would be excited about the idea of working at a place where they could focus more on football and less on outside drama.
By olldflame
#540651
Jonathan Carone wrote:
olldflame wrote:The primary challenge to playing an FBS schedule will not be the calibre of the coaching we face; it will be the talent of the players.


We have been getting beat while having superior talent for three years. Why would that change at a higher level? The disappointment would just be greater.


Pay attention Jon. No one is saying we won't lose football games; just that there is no real reason to believe we would only win 2 or 3 a year as has been suggested. I have mixed feelings about making a coaching change, but I have a lot of confidence in IM to make the right call on that. I also can understand if they hold off a year or so because of the cost of the buyout.
By BigRed1
#540659
R i wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:
R i wrote:We will win more than 2-3 per year with Gill.

I really hope you’re right, but I don’t see it happening. With the lack of success Gill has had with an FCS schedule, I doubt he will have very much success against stronger opponents. I would sincerely like to know why you think he is going to be able to do what he’s failed to do so far. I would love to hear your take on this.



He has always won more than 2-3 games, so he has not failed to do that so far.

As far as transitioning, he will be able to get better recruiting classes. This years class is disappointing so far, but better than years past when we were recruiting to FCS BigSouth competition.

I am not a Gill apologist, but to say he would not win more than 2 games a year is kind of RiDiculous.

Gill coached 6 years in the FBS. Out of those six years he’s had 1 winning season. Three of those seasons were 3 or less wins. Granted he may get higher caliber players, but the teams he faces will also have higher caliber players as well. The competition is going to be much better than what he’s faced in the past six years. If we compare his FBS record against his FCS record, it’s a drastic difference.
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By Purple Haize
#540662 Anyone coaching at Kansas gets a mulligan on their record
By olldflame
#540668
Purple Haize wrote:Anyone coaching at Kansas gets a mulligan on their record


If they don't, they should. I remember the Kansas yahoos coming on here bad mouthing TG and proclaiming Charlie Weiss a genius. He proved to be not so ingenious and a jerk as well. Waiting for them to go begging to the only coach who has won there, Mark Mangino, who "resigned" due to allegations of player abuse in 2009.

I think it should also be added that the other FBS HC job Gill had was at Buffalo. Not exactly your historic football powerhouse either, which is why he got so much credit (possibly more than he deserved) for taking them to a conference championship and a bowl.

Let me state again for the record, I am NOT saying we do not need a new coach. I trust McCaw to make that call.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540671 Kansas is historically bad, but we can’t simply overlook his results there completely. They have to be taken in context.

Mangino was 7-5, 6-6, 12-1, 8-5, 5-7 with 3 bowl wins in his last five years. He’s the outlier.

Gill came in and immediately went 3-9, losing his first game to an FCS. He lost 17 of his last 20. Of those 17 losses only three were single digits. Three of his five wins were by less than a touchdown.

If you look at how his teams performed at Kansas and how they’ve performed at Liberty, there’s not much hope for success. I hate that because he’s represents us so well but at some point you are who you are.
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By FlamesHighontheTide
#540686 I know he went 5-7 his last year at Buffalo, but after that first year he went 18-20 with a conference championship and bowl appearance. If you look at Buffalo from 1999 to 2017 this is what you see. . .
6 times they won 5 or more games, 3 of those 6 seasons belong to Turner Gill. He is the only one to win a conference title there and the other 3 seasons of 5 or more wins were shared by 3 different head coaches.

He left Buffalo in a MUCH better position when he left. Record doesn't speak for the success he had at Buffalo.

And for the record next season, I think we can win 6 games for sure. I will be disappointed with anything less than 4. For the 2019 season I think we can win 7 of those games and again anything less than 4 would be a disappointment.
By BigRed1
#540688 I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.
By Ewglenn
#540691
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.
By olldflame
#540694
Ewglenn wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.


As has been stated by myself and others, Gill's predicesor at Kansas, Mark Mangino, is the only coach to have success there in a LONG time. They were bad before him and have been bad since he left. He was the Kansas equivalent of Bill Snyder at K State, but without the longevity or the class. Trying to make it sound like Turner Gill is responsible for the dumpster fire that is Kansas football is agenda driven revisionist history.
By willflop
#540696
FlamesHighontheTide wrote:I know he went 5-7 his last year at Buffalo, but after that first year he went 18-20 with a conference championship and bowl appearance. If you look at Buffalo from 1999 to 2017 this is what you see. . .
6 times they won 5 or more games, 3 of those 6 seasons belong to Turner Gill. He is the only one to win a conference title there and the other 3 seasons of 5 or more wins were shared by 3 different head coaches.

He left Buffalo in a MUCH better position when he left. Record doesn't speak for the success he had at Buffalo.

And for the record next season, I think we can win 6 games for sure. I will be disappointed with anything less than 4. For the 2019 season I think we can win 7 of those games and again anything less than 4 would be a disappointment.


But Look what happened the year after he left, when Buffalo was stacked with his system and recruits from the previous 4 years. The new coach went 2/10 I think, but was was able to get to 8/4 within a few years.

No matter how you slice it, he peaked at 7/4, and the team went backwards. Same story at LU.
By BigRed1
#540698
olldflame wrote:
Ewglenn wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.


As has been stated by myself and others, Gill's predicesor at Kansas, Mark Mangino, is the only coach to have success there in a LONG time. They were bad before him and have been bad since he left. He was the Kansas equivalent of Bill Snyder at K State, but without the longevity or the class. Trying to make it sound like Turner Gill is responsible for the dumpster fire that is Kansas football is agenda driven revisionist history.

So are you’re saying Mangino is a better coach than Gill? If Gill were such a great coach, shouldn’t Kansas have continued to win after his arrival? I’m just stating my opinion based on facts. It seems that many Gill defenders base their opinions on an emotional bond for Gill.
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By CCWMichael
#540701
Jonathan Carone wrote:Kansas is historically bad, but we can’t simply overlook his results there completely. They have to be taken in context.

Mangino was 7-5, 6-6, 12-1, 8-5, 5-7 with 3 bowl wins in his last five years. He’s the outlier.

Gill came in and immediately went 3-9, losing his first game to an FCS. He lost 17 of his last 20. Of those 17 losses only three were single digits. Three of his five wins were by less than a touchdown.

If you look at how his teams performed at Kansas and how they’ve performed at Liberty, there’s not much hope for success. I hate that because he’s represents us so well but at some point you are who you are.


+1
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By CCWMichael
#540702
Ewglenn wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.


+2
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540736
FlamesHighontheTide wrote:I know he went 5-7 his last year at Buffalo, but after that first year he went 18-20 with a conference championship and bowl appearance. If you look at Buffalo from 1999 to 2017 this is what you see. . .
6 times they won 5 or more games, 3 of those 6 seasons belong to Turner Gill. He is the only one to win a conference title there and the other 3 seasons of 5 or more wins were shared by 3 different head coaches.

He left Buffalo in a MUCH better position when he left. Record doesn't speak for the success he had at Buffalo.

And for the record next season, I think we can win 6 games for sure. I will be disappointed with anything less than 4. For the 2019 season I think we can win 7 of those games and again anything less than 4 would be a disappointment.


If Gill is coach, I will take that bet for $500.
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By flameshaw
#540738 Gill has never been a successful head coach at any school. He certainly has not made LU better in six years. He does have a winning record here, but hard to say it is successful, with all of the horrible losses. It is very, very, very easy to say we are worse off in every area, except for QB.
We need to cut our losses and move on. Can anyone who is for keeping Gill, give us just one reason why you might think that he will improve over his first 6 years.......... just one.
I am aware that he finished 4th in the Heisman Trophy voting. :roll:

Gill4life
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By Purple Haize
#540740
flameshaw wrote:Gill has never been a successful head coach at any school. He certainly has not made LU better in six years. He does have a winning record here, but hard to say it is successful, with all of the horrible losses. It is very, very, very easy to say we are worse off in every area, except for QB.
We need to cut our losses and move on. Can anyone who is for keeping Gill, give us just one reason why you might think that he will improve over his first 6 years.......... just one.
I am aware that he finished 4th in the Heisman Trophy voting. :roll:

Gill4life


We get it. You think Gill is a worthless coach :beatinghorse
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By flameshaw
#540743
Purple Haize wrote:
flameshaw wrote:Gill has never been a successful head coach at any school. He certainly has not made LU better in six years. He does have a winning record here, but hard to say it is successful, with all of the horrible losses. It is very, very, very easy to say we are worse off in every area, except for QB.
We need to cut our losses and move on. Can anyone who is for keeping Gill, give us just one reason why you might think that he will improve over his first 6 years.......... just one.
I am aware that he finished 4th in the Heisman Trophy voting. :roll:

Gill4life


We get it. You think Gill is a worthless coach :beatinghorse


It is not what I think that matters, it is what is painfully obvious to any objective person, who knows anything about football.

Gill 4 life.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
#540749 No true Scotsman...
And you are not exactly objective
So again. We get it You think he’s a worthless football coach. :beatinghorse
Last edited by Purple Haize on November 15th, 2017, 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By FlamesHighontheTide
#540775 flameshaw, a $500 dollar bet on next seasons win total? I thought this was a baptist school where gambling wasn't allowed. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want you to have to pay up brother.

#Gillstaysandwegobowling2019
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By R i
#540779 Looking at Mccaw's history of firing football coaches, it appears he has only done it once. It was at Baylor, and he did it the Sunday after the last game. Every situation is different, but it is part of it.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540780
R i wrote:Looking at Mccaw's history of firing football coaches, it appears he has only done it once. It was at Baylor, and he did it the Sunday after the last game. Every situation is different, but it is part of it.


If we win Saturday, I don’t know that I’d expect an announcement Sunday. I think it’d be a Tuesday-ish announcement after “extensive evaluation of the program.”
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By flameshaw
#540781
FlamesHighontheTide wrote:flameshaw, a $500 dollar bet on next seasons win total? I thought this was a baptist school where gambling wasn't allowed. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want you to have to pay up brother.

#Gillstaysandwegobowling2019


No worries my friend, I have it. I will end up happy either way. I understand your reluctance though.

Gill 4 life
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540782
Jonathan Carone wrote:
R i wrote:Looking at Mccaw's history of firing football coaches, it appears he has only done it once. It was at Baylor, and he did it the Sunday after the last game. Every situation is different, but it is part of it.


If we win Saturday, I don’t know that I’d expect an announcement Sunday. I think it’d be a Tuesday-ish announcement after “extensive evaluation of the program.”


You could certainly be correct my friend. However, I am of the opinion that the "extensive evaluation of the program" has already been completed. As long as it happens, I am not concerned about the timing.
I do sincerely feel bad for TG if he is replaced, but it is a business decision, on many fronts, nothing personal.
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By R i
#540790 So you guys think he has his mind made up already ? Or can this CSU game be a deciding factor ?

The main argument for and against firing Gill in my mind are :

Fire Gill : He is clearly not the guy to lead our program to greater heights that we aspire too. He is a good man, but he will never lead us to prominence. We need to cut ties as soon as possible to get started on that process, especially seeing as these are crucial years for our programs development.

Keep Gill : He has years left on his contract and it would be cheaper. He has recruited decently well, and has several verbals from high profile athletes with a few more to follow. The next few seasons is a transition period, and not many coaches will have success in that period. Gill will guide us through the valley of transition and be the steadying force we need. Our highs will not be high, and our lows will not be low.

My personal opinion is we need to move on and "find a guy that can do both"

I get the feeling that McCaw and JJ are leaning towards a more conservative play during the transition and keeping Gill after a 7-4 season.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540794
flameshaw wrote:
Jonathan Carone wrote:
R i wrote:Looking at Mccaw's history of firing football coaches, it appears he has only done it once. It was at Baylor, and he did it the Sunday after the last game. Every situation is different, but it is part of it.


If we win Saturday, I don’t know that I’d expect an announcement Sunday. I think it’d be a Tuesday-ish announcement after “extensive evaluation of the program.”


You could certainly be correct my friend. However, I am of the opinion that the "extensive evaluation of the program" has already been completed. As long as it happens, I am not concerned about the timing.
I do sincerely feel bad for TG if he is replaced, but it is a business decision, on many fronts, nothing personal.


I agree the evaluation has already been done. Ian already knows what he wants to do. Waiting til Tuesday and the "extensive evaluation of the program" would be the PR game he'd play to show respect to Gill. It comes across better that way than firing him the day after he won his third straight game.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540795
R i wrote:So you guys think he has his mind made up already ? Or can this CSU game be a deciding factor ?


You can't make a program defining decision based on one game. Ian's been here just under a year. He was also being vetted for months before he got here. He's likely been watching our football program since at least part of the 2016 season. Not to mention, I'm sure he's seen the report Jeff put together last year on why he wanted to make the move then.

The buyout is only $1.5 million. My understanding is we won't have to buy out the assistants. From a financial standpoint, if we aren't ready to cover a $1.5 million buyout, we're not FBS ready. That's the cost of doing business at that level.
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By R i
#540804
Jonathan Carone wrote:Waiting til Tuesday and the "extensive evaluation of the program" would be the PR game he'd play to show respect to Gill. It comes across better that way than firing him the day after he won his third straight game.


When are the exit meetings typically scheduled ? Do you think there would be that large of a gap in time between exit meetings and a press conference ? The way LU and Mccaw have proven to jump out in front of a story, I do not think they wait that long if he indeed gets fired.
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By Jonathan Carone
#540807 I just realized Liberty gets the entire week off for Thanksgiving. That means exit meetings are probably Sunday. If that’s the case, I’d agree the announcement would be Sunday so Gill could address his players one final time.
By ballcoach15
#540810 I see several schools are going after Jimbo Fisher. If LU needs a new coach, we should go after him also. I read he is unhappy with FSU commitment to facility upgrades, and support staff upgrades. LU is excellent in those areas.