Anything and everything about Liberty Flames football. Your comments on games, recruiting and the direction of the program as we move into new era.
User avatar
By Liberty22
#540575
Jonathan Carone wrote:If there are two years left then there’s a really good shot he’s back next year. That would’ve meant Jeff gave him a three year extension after the playoff run. You’re talking north of $4 million to buy out the staff on top of the $2.5-3 million we’d have to pay a new staff. That’s a lot of money. It would be unfortunate for the future of the program but it would be a totally justifiable decision.


I agree but you can sometimes get a fired coach for a bargain because he’s making so much from his last school. Maybe they attempt that. We shall see.
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540577
Liberty22 wrote:
Jonathan Carone wrote:If there are two years left then there’s a really good shot he’s back next year. That would’ve meant Jeff gave him a three year extension after the playoff run. You’re talking north of $4 million to buy out the staff on top of the $2.5-3 million we’d have to pay a new staff. That’s a lot of money. It would be unfortunate for the future of the program but it would be a totally justifiable decision.


I agree but you can sometimes get a fired coach for a bargain because he’s making so much from his last school. Maybe they attempt that. We shall see.


Been there done that. Gill was very cheap to us for a couple of years because of his previous contract. For this next hire, maybe we should take a different approach. 8) :shock: :idea:
User avatar
By CCWMichael
#540581
Purple Haize wrote:
CCWMichael wrote:
lawrenceq wrote:This thread needs to be closed.


Research ... provide statistics why this thread should be closed.
Otherwise, this is all emotional and I will be very happy to provide a warm fuzzy hug.


I’ll give you one strong statistic. He’s got 2 years left on his contract. So if that’s how you want to play it, all comments saying he’s gone are speculative and emotive. I’ll be happy to provide you a warm fuzzy navel to discuss the pros and cons if you want.


First off; please pull your shirt down ... this is a respectable site.
I certainly can be less speculative and emotive with his statistics, have been and will do again for this year :beatinghorse .
Now to your point. Yup. Eating near 10 mil is a tough business move.
Looks as if the pros and cons are being tabled ....
So, great insight on the contracts --- thanks to all.
I wish I were in on the cost-benefit analysis on this one
User avatar
By Jonathan Carone
#540586
Jonathan Carone wrote:If there are two years left then there’s a really good shot he’s back next year. That would’ve meant Jeff gave him a three year extension after the playoff run. You’re talking north of $4 million to buy out the staff on top of the $2.5-3 million we’d have to pay a new staff. That’s a lot of money. It would be unfortunate for the future of the program but it would be a totally justifiable decision.


I posted this under the assumption that assistant coaches would have to be bought out. I think I may be wrong on that. Assistants are usually one single year contracts or two year deals at most. If everyone is on one years deals, that would bring the buyout to only $1.5 million.

As for keeping Gill and changing assistants, I would question the caliber of coaches we could attract knowing we just cleaned house and the head coach only has two years left in his contract.
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540593
Jonathan Carone wrote:
Jonathan Carone wrote:If there are two years left then there’s a really good shot he’s back next year. That would’ve meant Jeff gave him a three year extension after the playoff run. You’re talking north of $4 million to buy out the staff on top of the $2.5-3 million we’d have to pay a new staff. That’s a lot of money. It would be unfortunate for the future of the program but it would be a totally justifiable decision.


I posted this under the assumption that assistant coaches would have to be bought out. I think I may be wrong on that. Assistants are usually one single year contracts or two year deals at most. If everyone is on one years deals, that would bring the buyout to only $1.5 million.

As for keeping Gill and changing assistants, I would question the caliber of coaches we could attract knowing we just cleaned house and the head coach only has two years left in his contract
.


Agreed. I was told he only had one year left on his contract, but it was not from my most reliable source(s), so that may or may not be true. In any event, sometimes addition by subtraction makes a lot of sense.
By BigRed1
#540595 I don’t think that if you replaced all the assistants it would make very much difference. You still have Gill as the HC. This team moving past mediocrity under Gill is obvious. Let’s look within the Big South. I believe that this is Kennesaw State’s third year of even fielding a football team. It looks like they probably will be going to the playoffs. This is Monmouth’s third year in the BS. Again, very good chance of playoff berth. We have never dominated this conference like I think we should have. To me, it would be like putting Alabama or Clemson in the Sunbelt Conference and getting 6-5 or 7-4 seasons. Do you think Saban or Dabo would still be coaching their teams with those results in such a weak conference? Don’t think so. Gill may be the most godly man on campus, but that doesn’t make him a great coach. If LU is really serious about making a splash in the BCS, then we have to be serious about who leads this team down that road. If we’re going to be happy with 2-3 wins a year and just being a BCS program,then Gill should stay.
By olldflame
#540597
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t think that if you replaced all the assistants it would make very much difference. You still have Gill as the HC. This team moving past mediocrity under Gill is obvious. Let’s look within the Big South. I believe that this is Kennesaw State’s third year of even fielding a football team. It looks like they probably will be going to the playoffs. This is Monmouth’s third year in the BS. Again, very good chance of playoff berth. We have never dominated this conference like I think we should have. To me, it would be like putting Alabama or Clemson in the Sunbelt Conference and getting 6-5 or 7-4 seasons. Do you think Saban or Dabo would still be coaching their teams with those results in such a weak conference? Don’t think so. Gill may be the most godly man on campus, but that doesn’t make him a great coach. If LU is really serious about making a splash in the BCS, then we have to be serious about who leads this team down that road. If we’re going to be happy with 2-3 wins a year and just being a BCS program,then Gill should stay.


BCS????

Is that the Bowl Championship Subdivision?
User avatar
By R i
#540606 We will win more than 2-3 per year with Gill.
By ballcoach15
#540607 There will be several FBS jobs opening up, in addition to those already open. Florida and Tennessee are looking, I look for Nebraska to enter the mix, along with several others. Once season ends, the axe will fall, if not before. With the early signing date in effect this year, ADs will have to move faster than in years past.
By BigRed1
#540619
R i wrote:We will win more than 2-3 per year with Gill.

I really hope you’re right, but I don’t see it happening. With the lack of success Gill has had with an FCS schedule, I doubt he will have very much success against stronger opponents. I would sincerely like to know why you think he is going to be able to do what he’s failed to do so far. I would love to hear your take on this.
By ballcoach15
#540620 We have played better vs FBS schools over the years than we have vs many FCS schools. I can't recall us getting embarrassed by a FBS school, but there has been some embarrassing loses to FBS schools.
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540630
ballcoach15 wrote:We have played better vs FBS schools over the years than we have vs many FCS schools. I can't recall us getting embarrassed by a FBS school, but there has been some embarrassing loses to FBS schools.


True, but a couple of things to consider. First, when a FBS team plays a FCS team, there is a natural tendency to take the opponent for granted. Finally, most of our FBS games have been the first game of the year. Gill won't have 8 months to put together a game plan between games, when we are playing a FBS schedule.
By willflop
#540635 I think Gill could do at LU what he did at Buffalo, which amounts to seasons around 5/7, with an occasional 7/5 every 3-4 years.
User avatar
By R i
#540639
BigRed1 wrote:
R i wrote:We will win more than 2-3 per year with Gill.

I really hope you’re right, but I don’t see it happening. With the lack of success Gill has had with an FCS schedule, I doubt he will have very much success against stronger opponents. I would sincerely like to know why you think he is going to be able to do what he’s failed to do so far. I would love to hear your take on this.



He has always won more than 2-3 games, so he has not failed to do that so far.

As far as transitioning, he will be able to get better recruiting classes. This years class is disappointing so far, but better than years past when we were recruiting to FCS BigSouth competition.

I am not a Gill apologist, but to say he would not win more than 2 games a year is kind of RiDiculous.
By olldflame
#540643 Saying that because he is winning 6 or 7 a year in FCS means he will win substantially less in FBS is assuming there will be no upgrade in talent. While the jury is still out on this first FBS recruiting class, there is movement in the right direction. More importantly, the big picture track record of all schools in all sports shows that when you move up, you will be able to recruit better players, although it is not a!ways an instantaneous transformation.
User avatar
By Jonathan Carone
#540645 Our talent level hasn’t been our problem. We’ve had more talent than every Big South team not named Coastal and even then we were likely even with Coastal.
User avatar
By Class of 20Something
#540646 Can we pump the brakes on the recruiting evaluation?

Lets project that we get two more 3* recruits this class and compare it to the 2017 classes in the lower G5 conferences.

Five 3* recruits puts us at
-8/14 in the CUSA
-7/12 in the SBC
-9/12 in the MAC
-Over Army's three 3* recruits last season.

If we push that number to eight 3* for the 2019 class
-Still 8/14 in the CUSA
-3/12 in the SBC
-6/12 in the MAC
-Tied with UMass at eight.

We will only garner more attention with more FBS opponents.
By olldflame
#540647
Jonathan Carone wrote:Our talent level hasn’t been our problem. We’ve had more talent than every Big South team not named Coastal and even then we were likely even with Coastal.


The primary challenge to playing an FBS schedule will not be the calibre of the coaching we face; it will be the talent of the players. If we can upgrade that, I see no reason why our W/L record should take a big dive. I am not saying we cannot or should not upgrade the coaching as well. Hopefully IM will be given the authority to make that call.

And speaking of Ian McCaw, isn't it amazing the how quickly the controversy over his hire has faded. JLFJR has his flaws, like all of us, but he is a smart cookie, and it's looking more and more like he pulled off a major coup in landing Ian.
User avatar
By R i
#540648 Hiring a football coach could be difficult for Ian. He will likely have to hire someone that knows him personally. The cloud of TitleIX at Baylor, could shrink the candidate pool pretty significantly.

I agree, Ian has been worth it so far, and I have no doubts he can hire a great coach if need be.
User avatar
By Jonathan Carone
#540649
olldflame wrote:The primary challenge to playing an FBS schedule will not be the calibre of the coaching we face; it will be the talent of the players.


We have been getting beat while having superior talent for three years. Why would that change at a higher level? The disappointment would just be greater.
By olldflame
#540650
R i wrote:Hiring a football coach could be difficult for Ian. He will likely have to hire someone that knows him personally. The cloud of TitleIX at Baylor, could shrink the candidate pool pretty significantly.

I agree, Ian has been worth it so far, and I have no doubts he can hire a great coach if need be.


I don't see what happened at Baylor having any significant impact on Ian's ability to hire a football coach, whether he knows the man personally or not. Unlike Ken Starr and his cohorts, our leadership has a robust Title IX compliance system in place, something he did in spite of the fact he doesn't like the way the law is being enforced, but he realized the pragmatic need for it. Add to that the fact that, while they are certainly not all "angels", we do screen the character of our recruits more carefully than most schools, and I think a lot of possible coaches would be excited about the idea of working at a place where they could focus more on football and less on outside drama.
By olldflame
#540651
Jonathan Carone wrote:
olldflame wrote:The primary challenge to playing an FBS schedule will not be the calibre of the coaching we face; it will be the talent of the players.


We have been getting beat while having superior talent for three years. Why would that change at a higher level? The disappointment would just be greater.


Pay attention Jon. No one is saying we won't lose football games; just that there is no real reason to believe we would only win 2 or 3 a year as has been suggested. I have mixed feelings about making a coaching change, but I have a lot of confidence in IM to make the right call on that. I also can understand if they hold off a year or so because of the cost of the buyout.
By BigRed1
#540659
R i wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:
R i wrote:We will win more than 2-3 per year with Gill.

I really hope you’re right, but I don’t see it happening. With the lack of success Gill has had with an FCS schedule, I doubt he will have very much success against stronger opponents. I would sincerely like to know why you think he is going to be able to do what he’s failed to do so far. I would love to hear your take on this.



He has always won more than 2-3 games, so he has not failed to do that so far.

As far as transitioning, he will be able to get better recruiting classes. This years class is disappointing so far, but better than years past when we were recruiting to FCS BigSouth competition.

I am not a Gill apologist, but to say he would not win more than 2 games a year is kind of RiDiculous.

Gill coached 6 years in the FBS. Out of those six years he’s had 1 winning season. Three of those seasons were 3 or less wins. Granted he may get higher caliber players, but the teams he faces will also have higher caliber players as well. The competition is going to be much better than what he’s faced in the past six years. If we compare his FBS record against his FCS record, it’s a drastic difference.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
#540662 Anyone coaching at Kansas gets a mulligan on their record
By olldflame
#540668
Purple Haize wrote:Anyone coaching at Kansas gets a mulligan on their record


If they don't, they should. I remember the Kansas yahoos coming on here bad mouthing TG and proclaiming Charlie Weiss a genius. He proved to be not so ingenious and a jerk as well. Waiting for them to go begging to the only coach who has won there, Mark Mangino, who "resigned" due to allegations of player abuse in 2009.

I think it should also be added that the other FBS HC job Gill had was at Buffalo. Not exactly your historic football powerhouse either, which is why he got so much credit (possibly more than he deserved) for taking them to a conference championship and a bowl.

Let me state again for the record, I am NOT saying we do not need a new coach. I trust McCaw to make that call.
User avatar
By Jonathan Carone
#540671 Kansas is historically bad, but we can’t simply overlook his results there completely. They have to be taken in context.

Mangino was 7-5, 6-6, 12-1, 8-5, 5-7 with 3 bowl wins in his last five years. He’s the outlier.

Gill came in and immediately went 3-9, losing his first game to an FCS. He lost 17 of his last 20. Of those 17 losses only three were single digits. Three of his five wins were by less than a touchdown.

If you look at how his teams performed at Kansas and how they’ve performed at Liberty, there’s not much hope for success. I hate that because he’s represents us so well but at some point you are who you are.
User avatar
By FlamesHighontheTide
#540686 I know he went 5-7 his last year at Buffalo, but after that first year he went 18-20 with a conference championship and bowl appearance. If you look at Buffalo from 1999 to 2017 this is what you see. . .
6 times they won 5 or more games, 3 of those 6 seasons belong to Turner Gill. He is the only one to win a conference title there and the other 3 seasons of 5 or more wins were shared by 3 different head coaches.

He left Buffalo in a MUCH better position when he left. Record doesn't speak for the success he had at Buffalo.

And for the record next season, I think we can win 6 games for sure. I will be disappointed with anything less than 4. For the 2019 season I think we can win 7 of those games and again anything less than 4 would be a disappointment.
By BigRed1
#540688 I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.
By Ewglenn
#540691
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.
By olldflame
#540694
Ewglenn wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.


As has been stated by myself and others, Gill's predicesor at Kansas, Mark Mangino, is the only coach to have success there in a LONG time. They were bad before him and have been bad since he left. He was the Kansas equivalent of Bill Snyder at K State, but without the longevity or the class. Trying to make it sound like Turner Gill is responsible for the dumpster fire that is Kansas football is agenda driven revisionist history.
By willflop
#540696
FlamesHighontheTide wrote:I know he went 5-7 his last year at Buffalo, but after that first year he went 18-20 with a conference championship and bowl appearance. If you look at Buffalo from 1999 to 2017 this is what you see. . .
6 times they won 5 or more games, 3 of those 6 seasons belong to Turner Gill. He is the only one to win a conference title there and the other 3 seasons of 5 or more wins were shared by 3 different head coaches.

He left Buffalo in a MUCH better position when he left. Record doesn't speak for the success he had at Buffalo.

And for the record next season, I think we can win 6 games for sure. I will be disappointed with anything less than 4. For the 2019 season I think we can win 7 of those games and again anything less than 4 would be a disappointment.


But Look what happened the year after he left, when Buffalo was stacked with his system and recruits from the previous 4 years. The new coach went 2/10 I think, but was was able to get to 8/4 within a few years.

No matter how you slice it, he peaked at 7/4, and the team went backwards. Same story at LU.
By BigRed1
#540698
olldflame wrote:
Ewglenn wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.


As has been stated by myself and others, Gill's predicesor at Kansas, Mark Mangino, is the only coach to have success there in a LONG time. They were bad before him and have been bad since he left. He was the Kansas equivalent of Bill Snyder at K State, but without the longevity or the class. Trying to make it sound like Turner Gill is responsible for the dumpster fire that is Kansas football is agenda driven revisionist history.

So are you’re saying Mangino is a better coach than Gill? If Gill were such a great coach, shouldn’t Kansas have continued to win after his arrival? I’m just stating my opinion based on facts. It seems that many Gill defenders base their opinions on an emotional bond for Gill.
User avatar
By CCWMichael
#540701
Jonathan Carone wrote:Kansas is historically bad, but we can’t simply overlook his results there completely. They have to be taken in context.

Mangino was 7-5, 6-6, 12-1, 8-5, 5-7 with 3 bowl wins in his last five years. He’s the outlier.

Gill came in and immediately went 3-9, losing his first game to an FCS. He lost 17 of his last 20. Of those 17 losses only three were single digits. Three of his five wins were by less than a touchdown.

If you look at how his teams performed at Kansas and how they’ve performed at Liberty, there’s not much hope for success. I hate that because he’s represents us so well but at some point you are who you are.


+1
User avatar
By CCWMichael
#540702
Ewglenn wrote:
BigRed1 wrote:I don’t really understand why so many people keep excusing Gill’s lack of success at Kansas. In the previous 8 years before Gill went there, Kansas went to 4 bowl games and won three of those. It’s when Gill came to Kansas and there after that they became a dumpster fire.


Finally someone with some sense.


+2
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540736
FlamesHighontheTide wrote:I know he went 5-7 his last year at Buffalo, but after that first year he went 18-20 with a conference championship and bowl appearance. If you look at Buffalo from 1999 to 2017 this is what you see. . .
6 times they won 5 or more games, 3 of those 6 seasons belong to Turner Gill. He is the only one to win a conference title there and the other 3 seasons of 5 or more wins were shared by 3 different head coaches.

He left Buffalo in a MUCH better position when he left. Record doesn't speak for the success he had at Buffalo.

And for the record next season, I think we can win 6 games for sure. I will be disappointed with anything less than 4. For the 2019 season I think we can win 7 of those games and again anything less than 4 would be a disappointment.


If Gill is coach, I will take that bet for $500.
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540738 Gill has never been a successful head coach at any school. He certainly has not made LU better in six years. He does have a winning record here, but hard to say it is successful, with all of the horrible losses. It is very, very, very easy to say we are worse off in every area, except for QB.
We need to cut our losses and move on. Can anyone who is for keeping Gill, give us just one reason why you might think that he will improve over his first 6 years.......... just one.
I am aware that he finished 4th in the Heisman Trophy voting. :roll:

Gill4life
User avatar
By Purple Haize
#540740
flameshaw wrote:Gill has never been a successful head coach at any school. He certainly has not made LU better in six years. He does have a winning record here, but hard to say it is successful, with all of the horrible losses. It is very, very, very easy to say we are worse off in every area, except for QB.
We need to cut our losses and move on. Can anyone who is for keeping Gill, give us just one reason why you might think that he will improve over his first 6 years.......... just one.
I am aware that he finished 4th in the Heisman Trophy voting. :roll:

Gill4life


We get it. You think Gill is a worthless coach :beatinghorse
User avatar
By flameshaw
#540743
Purple Haize wrote:
flameshaw wrote:Gill has never been a successful head coach at any school. He certainly has not made LU better in six years. He does have a winning record here, but hard to say it is successful, with all of the horrible losses. It is very, very, very easy to say we are worse off in every area, except for QB.
We need to cut our losses and move on. Can anyone who is for keeping Gill, give us just one reason why you might think that he will improve over his first 6 years.......... just one.
I am aware that he finished 4th in the Heisman Trophy voting. :roll:

Gill4life


We get it. You think Gill is a worthless coach :beatinghorse


It is not what I think that matters, it is what is painfully obvious to any objective person, who knows anything about football.

Gill 4 life.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
#540749 No true Scotsman...
And you are not exactly objective
So again. We get it You think he’s a worthless football coach. :beatinghorse
Last edited by Purple Haize on November 15th, 2017, 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
By FlamesHighontheTide
#540775 flameshaw, a $500 dollar bet on next seasons win total? I thought this was a baptist school where gambling wasn't allowed. Nonetheless, I wouldn't want you to have to pay up brother.

#Gillstaysandwegobowling2019
User avatar
By R i
#540779 Looking at Mccaw's history of firing football coaches, it appears he has only done it once. It was at Baylor, and he did it the Sunday after the last game. Every situation is different, but it is part of it.