[thepostman]

You two are doing a great job at missing each others point.

[stokesjokes]

Well, if you’re following the hearings, you’d know that Pence and his chief of staff disagree with you. They believed that the words and actions of Trump were going to put Pence in physical danger and that Trump knew that and knowingly continued.

Did Pence testify? I wasn’t sure if his COS did or not. Did he think Pence was going to be hanged? Cause you said Trump was ok with Pence being hanged. Now you’ve backed waaaay off of it. I’m just waiting to see where you land other than Orange Man Bad

Haven’t backed off a thing, I don’t know why you keep saying I have. I said I believe Trump meant it when he said Pence deserved to be hanged and I’m continuing to provide you evidence for that. You have yet to give any reason not to think he meant it, other than some supposed insight you have into the guy that also doesn’t have any corroborating evidence.

Pence’s COS testified, yes. So did his attorney. From that testimony and judge Luttig’s testimony yesterday, we learned that every person in Trump’s orbit knew that what he was asking Pence to do was illegal and seditious. Pence himself had repeatedly and demonstrably told Trump that he would not do it. Trump then mounted a public pressure campaign, including lies about Pence’s mindset on the issue to the public. Trump was warned that this could lead to violence against Pence. Trump proceeded, including tweeting against Pence during the riot, which was read over a bullhorn to further incite the crowd.

Now when you hear testimony that when informed that the same crowd was chanting “hang Mike Pence,” Trump replied with “he deserves it,” where in the world would you get the notion that he doesn’t mean what he says?

We also have Ivanka’s testimony of Trump screaming at Pence right before the riot, calling him a p*ssy. Ivanka said the conversation made her very uncomfortable.

But sure, he’s just playing, guys

And yes, orange man bad. He and his friend John Eastman tried to overthrow the government. There’s a pretty clear picture of that now.

[Purple Haize]

“Tried to overthrow the Government “. That’s where you lose me and everyone else and makes further discussion on the matter fruitless
Lookit. If Trump wanted Pence hung or arrested for Treason or a whole bunch of things he certainly could have at least arrested him. He at least could have fired him as VP. Trump WAS still President after all. Why did he not do these evil things you keep saying he wanted to do? He and a vast number of Americans feel the 2020 election has a lot of questions about its integrity. That’s not trying to overthrow the Government anymore than any of the Politicians who claimed it the last several elections. It’s a fact that the 2020 election was held in a manner different than any other in recent history and that is obviously going to raise concerns. That’s not trying to overthrow the Government. Are a lot of Trumps claims bogus regarding the election? Probably. But that’s not trying to overthrow the election.
And this Committee is more about blaming Trump then finding out why stuff like this continues to happen

[Purple Haize]

You two are doing a great job at missing each others point.

I get his point. Orange Man Bad. All else flows from that.

[stokesjokes]

This is where it would help if you were actually following the testimony of the hearings. Or apparently at least understood how the government works? The president doesn’t have the power to “just have Pence arrested” or even to fire the Vice President. I can understand a third grader suggesting that, but come on, you’re losing grip on reality here.

Follow the testimony. This isn’t about having questions about the integrity of the election. We have testimony from multiple advisors, from Trump’s attorney general, and from his own daughter that everyone knew that his fraud claims were, in the words of Bill Barr, “bullsh*t”, and told the president repeatedly that they had no basis in reality.
Now, knowing that, he didn’t just publicly muse about the integrity of the election, he deliberately pressured the Vice President to reject the states electors and install his own, despite being told repeatedly by everyone involved (save John Eastman) that doing so was illegal and seditious. When Pence vehemently refused, he mounted a public pressure campaign and knowingly incited violence against the proceedings.

It’s a clear, cut and dry case of trying to overthrow the government to have himself installed as president. He knew without a shadow of a doubt that he had literally zero evidence that the election was stolen. If he still believed it, he was delusional and unfit to be president. But he didn’t just wonder if it was an unfair election, he conspired to prevent the rule of law from being followed.

[Purple Haize]

This is where it would help if you were actually following the testimony of the hearings. Or apparently at least understood how the government works? The president doesn’t have the power to “just have Pence arrested” or even to fire the Vice President. I can understand a third grader suggesting that, but come on, you’re losing grip on reality here.

Follow the testimony. This isn’t about having questions about the integrity of the election. We have testimony from multiple advisors, from Trump’s attorney general, and from his own daughter that everyone knew that his fraud claims were, in the words of Bill Barr, “bullsh*t”, and told the president repeatedly that they had no basis in reality.
Now, knowing that, he didn’t just publicly muse about the integrity of the election, he deliberately pressured the Vice President to reject the states electors and install his own, despite being told repeatedly by everyone involved (save John Eastman) that doing so was illegal and seditious. When Pence vehemently refused, he mounted a public pressure campaign and knowingly incited violence against the proceedings.

It’s a clear, cut and dry case of trying to overthrow the government to have himself installed as president. He knew without a shadow of a doubt that he had literally zero evidence that the election was stolen. If he still believed it, he was delusional and unfit to be president. But he didn’t just wonder if it was an unfair election, he conspired to prevent the rule of law from being followed.

But if he was trying to overthrow the Government he could do every single one of those things in your first paragraph. But he wasn’t. So he didn’t. The rest is just theater

[stokesjokes]

You’ve tried this argument before and it still makes no sense. Failure doesn’t equal innocence. If I tried to rob a store and had to run away without anything, I’m still going to jail.

The reality is the president doesn’t have the unilateral power that you think he does. He tried. He was blocked by those with the power to enact his plan. That still means he conspired to, and I’ll be more specific in my language here if that helps, overthrow the election. To the extent of knowingly inciting violence when the person he needed to enact his plan (Pence) refused. There’s a reason he was silent for hours when his own people were begging him to do something to stop it. There’s a reason Pence had to step into the executive role and meet with the Joint Chiefs.

We’ve got documented testimony that Trump’s co-conspirator in this, Eastman, acknowledged that their plan was illegal. When told that it would lead to violence, he shrugged it off and said “there’s been violence in the history of our country.” We then have Eastman’s own emails begging Trump for a pardon afterward. He then went on to plead the fifth 140 times.

The reality is, if Trump and Eastman did what they are accused of doing, which all testimony head so far supports very clearly, they committed heinous crimes against the country, whether or not their plan was successful.

That’s why this matters. You don’t let them try to overthrow an election and then say, “oh well, they failed, let’s move on.” You investigate, you try the case, and you send them to jail. That’s justice. And that’s vital to our democracy. If you don’t, they will try again, as they are already setting up to do, as judge Luttig testified.

[TH Spangler]

You’ve tried this argument before and it still makes no sense. Failure doesn’t equal innocence. If I tried to rob a store and had to run away without anything, I’m still going to jail.

The reality is the president doesn’t have the unilateral power that you think he does. He tried. He was blocked by those with the power to enact his plan. That still means he conspired to, and I’ll be more specific in my language here if that helps, overthrow the election. To the extent of knowingly inciting violence when the person he needed to enact his plan (Pence) refused. There’s a reason he was silent for hours when his own people were begging him to do something to stop it. There’s a reason Pence had to step into the executive role and meet with the Joint Chiefs.

We’ve got documented testimony that Trump’s co-conspirator in this, Eastman, acknowledged that their plan was illegal. When told that it would lead to violence, he shrugged it off and said “there’s been violence in the history of our country.” We then have Eastman’s own emails begging Trump for a pardon afterward. He then went on to plead the fifth 140 times.

The reality is, if Trump and Eastman did what they are accused of doing, which all testimony head so far supports very clearly, they committed heinous crimes against the country, whether or not their plan was successful.

That’s why this matters. You don’t let them try to overthrow an election and then say, “oh well, they failed, let’s move on.” You investigate, you try the case, and you send them to jail. That’s justice. And that’s vital to our democracy. If you don’t, they will try again, as they are already setting up to do, as judge Luttig testified.

This is the latest hoax. Russia, Ukraine phone call and now this. Stokes you either fail for or knowing spewed the first two. You've lost credibility just like the rest.

[JK37]

Can we agree folks on all sides are going to CHOOSE their own truth at this point?

[rtb72]

Can we agree folks on all sides are going to CHOOSE their own truth at this point?

Yep....this right here sums it up!

[Purple Haize]

You’ve tried this argument before and it still makes no sense. Failure doesn’t equal innocence. If I tried to rob a store and had to run away without anything, I’m still going to jail.

The reality is the president doesn’t have the unilateral power that you think he does. He tried. He was blocked by those with the power to enact his plan. That still means he conspired to, and I’ll be more specific in my language here if that helps, overthrow the election. To the extent of knowingly inciting violence when the person he needed to enact his plan (Pence) refused. There’s a reason he was silent for hours when his own people were begging him to do something to stop it. There’s a reason Pence had to step into the executive role and meet with the Joint Chiefs.

We’ve got documented testimony that Trump’s co-conspirator in this, Eastman, acknowledged that their plan was illegal. When told that it would lead to violence, he shrugged it off and said “there’s been violence in the history of our country.” We then have Eastman’s own emails begging Trump for a pardon afterward. He then went on to plead the fifth 140 times.

The reality is, if Trump and Eastman did what they are accused of doing, which all testimony head so far supports very clearly, they committed heinous crimes against the country, whether or not their plan was successful.

That’s why this matters. You don’t let them try to overthrow an election and then say, “oh well, they failed, let’s move on.” You investigate, you try the case, and you send them to jail. That’s justice. And that’s vital to our democracy. If you don’t, they will try again, as they are already setting up to do, as judge Luttig testified.

And again therein lies our disagreement. I don’t see his actions as trying to overthrow the Government. You have assigned all these nefarious intentions etc based on that core belief. One that I simply assert is not true.
What is true is January 6 was a demonstration that got out of hand. Why and how the Capitol was breached needs to be looked at and people held accountable. As to date that has not happened. And as I posted before we had yet another breech just yesterday. None of what’s been released with the Hollywood glitz and glamor has touched on this. And I highly suspect it will
Ironically I’ve spent the last several days with folks who have a keen sense of what Revolution and Insurrections are all about. And what happens to those who mount them and succeed and mount them and fail. It’s given me greater appreciation that my position of the events of J6 are spot on.

And it’s nice to see you’ve convicted and sentenced them even before the trial. So American

[Just John]

This is where it would help if you were actually following the testimony of the hearings. Or apparently at least understood how the government works? The president doesn’t have the power to “just have Pence arrested” or even to fire the Vice President. I can understand a third grader suggesting that, but come on, you’re losing grip on reality here.

Follow the testimony. This isn’t about having questions about the integrity of the election. We have testimony from multiple advisors, from Trump’s attorney general, and from his own daughter that everyone knew that his fraud claims were, in the words of Bill Barr, “bullsh*t”, and told the president repeatedly that they had no basis in reality.
Now, knowing that, he didn’t just publicly muse about the integrity of the election, he deliberately pressured the Vice President to reject the states electors and install his own, despite being told repeatedly by everyone involved (save John Eastman) that doing so was illegal and seditious. When Pence vehemently refused, he mounted a public pressure campaign and knowingly incited violence against the proceedings.

It’s a clear, cut and dry case of trying to overthrow the government to have himself installed as president. He knew without a shadow of a doubt that he had literally zero evidence that the election was stolen. If he still believed it, he was delusional and unfit to be president. But he didn’t just wonder if it was an unfair election, he conspired to prevent the rule of law from being followed.

But if he was trying to overthrow the Government he could do every single one of those things in your first paragraph. But he wasn’t. So he didn’t. The rest is just theater

But this would include Trump directly getting his hands dirty which is not his MO. Better to let other's take the blame.

Did he want Pence killed? I doubt it when it came right down to it. But, in his unbound selfishness, he was reckless and it had consequences. On Jan 5th. per Jason Miller, Trump dictated to him a tweet saying The Vice President and I are in total agreement that the Vice President has total power to act" to not accept Biden's slate of electors. Marc Short, Pence's CoS, said this was a not true. Trump set Pence up. Short also called the Secret Service the day on Jan 5th, telling them he had concerns about the safety of the VP.

It truly amazes me, based on the testimony we have seen from this committee, based on Trump and Pence aides and other Republicans involved, that anyone can call it a "hoax" that Trump did anything but try to overturn the result of the election. He was told multiple times and by multiple aides and his own WH lawyers what he wanted Pence to do was un-Constitutional. John Eastman, the lawyer pushing Trump, begrudgingly admitted it would get thrown out of the SCOTUS if Pence had gone through with it. And yet they still tried. What more evidence does one need?

[Just John]

Trade you Cheney, Romney and cry baby for Tulsi and Manchin.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you have said no Christian could ever vote for someone who supports abortion. Maybe "trading" for Gabbards allows getting a pro-abortion politician without having to vote for one.

I have never understood the love of so-called "conservatives" for Gabbards. She is anathema to so many historic conservative principles. It boggles the mind one would consider her better than Cheney, Kinzinger, or Romney, all who have vastly more conservative voting records. IMO it just further shows how some have gone from caring about policies to being angry, personality politics, and "he/she fights".

[TH Spangler]

He just wanted everyone to execute every legal option to uncover what he and millions more thought was fraudulent election activity in key states.

After 4 years of pink hats, the Kavanaugh nomination circus, a summer of rioters burning, looting and killing. A press core acting like fools everyday, a fraudulent Russia conspiracy, the Ukraine phone call impeachment ... over a phone call that was getting close to pulling the curtain back on Hunter and Joe Bidens money schemes. There was reason to beleive the permanent Washington establishment would do anything to prevent him from having a second term.

[Purple Haize]

@Just John it is here I think you make an absolutely critical distinction whether you wanted to or not Did Trump want to see the results of the election changed? Absolutely. However, and here is what is missed IMO, it was viewed by his followers and himself as changing the results of an election that was suspect. Were his chances of winning those la suits low? Absolutely. Was the possibility of Pence decertifying electors viable? Constitutionally intriguing but slimmer than Kate Moss None of the things he did were illegal or remotely close to the level of overthrowing the government or insurrection. There is an entire cache of words you can use that would describe his actions But the ones being tossed about y the J6 committee are not it.

[Just John]

He just wanted everyone to execute every legal option to uncover what he and millions more thought was fraudulent election activity in key states.

After 4 years of pink hats, the Kavanaugh nomination circus, a summer of rioters burning, looting and killing. A press core acting like fools everyday, a fraudulent Russia conspiracy, the Ukraine phone call impeachment ... over a phone call that was getting close to pulling the curtain back on Hunter and Joe Bidens money schemes. There was reason to beleive the permanent Washington establishment would do anything to prevent him from having a second term.

Respectfully, everything you wrote in your second paragraph has zero to do with what was legal and what was not as it pertains to what Trump and Eastman were trying to work through others to accomplish. None of it. And what he was doing was illegal, or certainly at least un-Constitutional. He was told that many times over. There was a reason Eastman claimed the 5th more than 100 times in testimony and why he asked to be put on the pardon list. He knew what he was doing would not be held up by the SCOTUS. He admitted it beforehand to Pence's lawyer Craig Jacob.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/16/11056836 ... -committee

[Just John]

@Just John it is here I think you make an absolutely critical distinction whether you wanted to or not Did Trump want to see the results of the election changed? Absolutely. However, and here is what is missed IMO, it was viewed by his followers and himself as changing the results of an election that was suspect. Were his chances of winning those la suits low? Absolutely. Was the possibility of Pence decertifying electors viable? Constitutionally intriguing but slimmer than Kate Moss None of the things he did were illegal or remotely close to the level of overthrowing the government or insurrection. There is an entire cache of words you can use that would describe his actions But the ones being tossed about y the J6 committee are not it.

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play on one on TV but there are certain facts which come to play on on either the legality or judgment of someone so many continue to defend as if he was the person wronged.

Did he really believe he lost the election? It's clear many of those around whom, some who still carried out the "rigged" nonsense publicly didn't privately. We saw it after the fact from Hannity's tweet to McEneaney which she tacitly agreed to. From Kelly Ann Conway, Bill Barr, Jason Miller, Trump campaign data guy Matt Oczkowski, and Trump campaign lawyer Alex Cannon and others. So now we have the liar, lunatic decision to consider. Did he just continue to lie or was je so unhinged he couldn't accept what many of his own people were telling him?

So the next question is what responsibility does he have for incitement? He has helped engineer this crazy plan for new elector slates, setup Pence as a fall guy, lying that Pence agreed he could do what Pence himself and others told Trump was un-Constitutional, invited a crowd to DC telling them to come, "it will be wild", gives a speech the morning of the 6th, putting the pressure on Pence to do something, he again has been told many times, is un-Constitutional, say's Pence is a coward if he doesn't do it, then tells the crowd to march to the capitol (of course telling them he would as well but he doesn't). At what point is this "yelling fire in a crowded theater"?

Then there's telling the acting Attorney General Rosen to "just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressman". And of course his call to Raffensberger to help him find 11,000 more votes in GA.

At what point do we say he was trying to overthrow the election, regardless of his feelings. Or at the very least, when do people stop minimizing what happened, minimizing his role, playing false equivalency games of "but...."? There's way too much to look the other way.

[rtb72]

This is where it would help if you were actually following the testimony of the hearings. Or apparently at least understood how the government works? The president doesn’t have the power to “just have Pence arrested” or even to fire the Vice President. I can understand a third grader suggesting that, but come on, you’re losing grip on reality here.

Follow the testimony. This isn’t about having questions about the integrity of the election. We have testimony from multiple advisors, from Trump’s attorney general, and from his own daughter that everyone knew that his fraud claims were, in the words of Bill Barr, “bullsh*t”, and told the president repeatedly that they had no basis in reality.
Now, knowing that, he didn’t just publicly muse about the integrity of the election, he deliberately pressured the Vice President to reject the states electors and install his own, despite being told repeatedly by everyone involved (save John Eastman) that doing so was illegal and seditious. When Pence vehemently refused, he mounted a public pressure campaign and knowingly incited violence against the proceedings.

It’s a clear, cut and dry case of trying to overthrow the government to have himself installed as president. He knew without a shadow of a doubt that he had literally zero evidence that the election was stolen. If he still believed it, he was delusional and unfit to be president. But he didn’t just wonder if it was an unfair election, he conspired to prevent the rule of law from being followed.

But if he was trying to overthrow the Government he could do every single one of those things in your first paragraph. But he wasn’t. So he didn’t. The rest is just theater

But this would include Trump directly getting his hands dirty which is not his MO. Better to let other's take the blame.

Did he want Pence killed? I doubt it when it came right down to it. But, in his unbound selfishness, he was reckless and it had consequences. On Jan 5th. per Jason Miller, Trump dictated to him a tweet saying The Vice President and I are in total agreement that the Vice President has total power to act" to not accept Biden's slate of electors. Marc Short, Pence's CoS, said this was a not true. Trump set Pence up. Short also called the Secret Service the day on Jan 5th, telling them he had concerns about the safety of the VP.

It truly amazes me, based on the testimony we have seen from this committee, based on Trump and Pence aides and other Republicans involved, that anyone can call it a "hoax" that Trump did anything but try to overturn the result of the election. He was told multiple times and by multiple aides and his own WH lawyers what he wanted Pence to do was un-Constitutional. John Eastman, the lawyer pushing Trump, begrudgingly admitted it would get thrown out of the SCOTUS if Pence had gone through with it. And yet they still tried. What more evidence does one need?

Testimony? I refer you to JK's comments which pretty much sums up both the J6 committee and the Trump side. Both are fraught with conjecture. My suggestion to all.....move on. The left hates Trump ( and most Repubs), the right hates everybody on the left. It's all filled with heresay "testimony" which is essentially worthless in a criminal court of law. It a referral happens, it won't be admissable in a criminal court. Trump's a dolt...the Dem leadership are also a bunch of freaks. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Move on! Good grief. How anyone can believe anything coming out of DC these days is beyond me. Furthermore, I would say anyone with even an iota of common sense and logic would say neither Trump nor Biden is a benefit on any political ticket.

Okay...sorry....that's off my chest. Carry on with the "debate"....

[Just John]

Testimony? I refer you to JK's comments which pretty much sums up both the J6 committee and the Trump side. Both are fraught with conjecture. My suggestion to all.....move on. The left hates Trump ( and most Repubs), the right hates everybody on the left. It's all filled with heresay "testimony" which is essentially worthless in a criminal court of law. It a referral happens, it won't be admissable in a criminal court. Trump's a dolt...the Dem leadership are also a bunch of freaks. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. Move on! Good grief. How anyone can believe anything coming out of DC these days is beyond me. Furthermore, I would say anyone with even an iota of common sense and logic would say neither Trump nor Biden is a benefit on any political ticket.

Okay...sorry....that's off my chest. Carry on with the "debate"....

Both sides suck. Big time. But IMO, we should not ignore what, hyperbole aside, really was an attempt to subvert an election that at that time, had already been certified in each state. Not because it is Trump, because it is all our democracy and someone may try it in the future if we just "move on".

I do see value in reading the transcripts of the hearing. It's not like Democrats are testifying. These are Republicans under oath.

https://www.npr.org/2022/06/16/11056836 ... -committee

[JK37]

Can’t it be said that Trump was trying to bring legitimacy to an election that was fraudulent?

See, both sides can do it.

This is tiresome. And it’s not like I don’t think it needs to be fixed. I just do t see anyone on the field capable of leading that drive.

[Just John]

Can’t it be said that Trump was trying to bring legitimacy to an election that was fraudulent?

See, both sides can do it.

This is tiresome. And it’s not like I don’t think it needs to be fixed. I just do t see anyone on the field capable of leading that drive.

There are legal ways to do so. They tried, they failed. Why did Eastman take the 5th over 100 times and ask for a pardon?

[TH Spangler]

Everyone in DC is just trying to protect their little money grab. Cronies, looting us tax payers.

[Just John]

Everyone in DC is just trying to protect their little money grab. Cronies, looting us tax payers.

Over-exaggeration but nonetheless, we are either a nation of laws or we aren't. You still can't bring yourself to say what Trump did was wrong yet castigate Kinzinger, Cheney and Romney for having the guts to do it. It is quite clear, AT BEST, the guy was so selfish or deluded to not believe many aides who told him he lost and do things that he was told were not Constitutional. Yes, I will continue going back to that because It matters.

[stokesjokes]

Everyone in DC is just trying to protect their little money grab. Cronies, looting us tax payers.

Let me guess, you donated to the “Election Defense Fund”

[stokesjokes]

You’ve tried this argument before and it still makes no sense. Failure doesn’t equal innocence. If I tried to rob a store and had to run away without anything, I’m still going to jail.

The reality is the president doesn’t have the unilateral power that you think he does. He tried. He was blocked by those with the power to enact his plan. That still means he conspired to, and I’ll be more specific in my language here if that helps, overthrow the election. To the extent of knowingly inciting violence when the person he needed to enact his plan (Pence) refused. There’s a reason he was silent for hours when his own people were begging him to do something to stop it. There’s a reason Pence had to step into the executive role and meet with the Joint Chiefs.

We’ve got documented testimony that Trump’s co-conspirator in this, Eastman, acknowledged that their plan was illegal. When told that it would lead to violence, he shrugged it off and said “there’s been violence in the history of our country.” We then have Eastman’s own emails begging Trump for a pardon afterward. He then went on to plead the fifth 140 times.

The reality is, if Trump and Eastman did what they are accused of doing, which all testimony head so far supports very clearly, they committed heinous crimes against the country, whether or not their plan was successful.

That’s why this matters. You don’t let them try to overthrow an election and then say, “oh well, they failed, let’s move on.” You investigate, you try the case, and you send them to jail. That’s justice. And that’s vital to our democracy. If you don’t, they will try again, as they are already setting up to do, as judge Luttig testified.

This is the latest hoax. Russia, Ukraine phone call and now this. Stokes you either fail for or knowing spewed the first two. You've lost credibility just like the rest.

This is one of those “repeat a lie enough and you start to believe it.” I hear “Russia hoax” constantly from you guys, but it’s not even close to the truth. Barr spun the Mueller report into oblivion and right-wing media has taken that even farther afield, but the report itself did raise some pretty serious concerns about Russian meddling in the 2016 election and did not at all exonerate the Trump campaign from collusion. I see now you’re trying to turn the Ukraine call into a hoax as well, no clue where that’s coming from. I guess it shouldn’t surprise me, everything bad that Trump’s been accused of isn’t true, apparently.