This is the location for conversations that don't fall anywhere else on FlameFans. Whether its politics, culture, the latest techno stuff or just the best places to travel on the web ... this is your forum.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#639312
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 5:24 pm
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:24 pm I mean, I can restate what I just said, if you want. But wait....you believe Trump is authoritarian? How so?

Not Trump specifically, but tell me which side is banning books and restricting ideas in schools?



100% the Left
sstaedtler liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639317
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 7:03 pm
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 5:24 pm
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:24 pm I mean, I can restate what I just said, if you want. But wait....you believe Trump is authoritarian? How so?

And again, name a prominent Christian leader or institution who are accommodating the left. It’s not a difficult request. If it’s an issue, they must exist, right?
Throughout history this has been the case. They don't necessarily have to be relevant or household names. In most cases, they're not.
If you don’t have any examples, just say that.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639318
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 7:04 pm
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 5:24 pm
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:24 pm I mean, I can restate what I just said, if you want. But wait....you believe Trump is authoritarian? How so?

Not Trump specifically, but tell me which side is banning books and restricting ideas in schools?



100% the Left
Oh, I guess the rash of CRT bans, legislation leading to removing MLK from Texas schools, etc was just a fever dream I had.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639321
Yes, using the power of the government to prevent certain ideas from being taught is authoritarianism, full stop. That’s textbook. It may be authoritarianism that you like, but that doesn’t meant it’s not authoritarianism.

And no, CRT doesn’t do what you claim it does. You’ve fallen for Chris Rufo’s rhetorical games. It’s simply a theoretical basis for understanding historical racial disparities.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#639322
It absolutely goes that way. I'm in one of those states where we've had that going on for years. My kids and their friends have had to endure. They're all still in school btw. It's the real thing.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#639323
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm Yes, using the power of the government to prevent certain ideas from being taught is authoritarianism, full stop. That’s textbook. It may be authoritarianism that you like, but that doesn’t meant it’s not authoritarianism.

And no, CRT doesn’t do what you claim it does. You’ve fallen for Chris Rufo’s rhetorical games. It’s simply a theoretical basis for understanding historical racial disparities.
Ok, so if parents don't want Nazi or Stalinist doctrine taught, then the parental rejection would somehow equate to authoritarian suppression, according to your definition.

Maybe, it's not such a bad idea to teach the basics and let people decide for themselves whether or not they want to be exposed to radical ideology or religious dogma.
Kricket liked this
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#639325
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 5:24 pm
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:24 pm I mean, I can restate what I just said, if you want. But wait....you believe Trump is authoritarian? How so?
Well, there’s the whole undermining the democratic process thing that he’s still banging on about.

There’s the banning Muslims from entering the country.

There’s the villainizing and openly threatening media companies.

There’s the restricting press access to only media companies that fawn over him.

There’s the threatening to shut down social media companies.

There’s the sending homeland security troops in to shut down protests in DC.

There’s the threatening to send in the military to shut down protests in other states.

There’s the firing or pushing out of many government officials who attempted to have oversight over him.


Not Trump specifically, but tell me which side is banning books and restricting ideas in schools?


And again, name a prominent Christian leader or institution who are accommodating the left. It’s not a difficult request. If it’s an issue, they must exist, right?
1 He and his followers, for right or wrong, feel the 2020 election was an undermining of the Democratic process. IF he were truly an Authoritarian he’d still be in office.

2 Muslims were never banned from the Country. Citizens from certain Countries, regardless of Religion, were prohibited, with good Administrative reasons, from entering the Country

3. That’s vague. I don’t recall him putting reporters under surveillance like certain past Administrations

4 Jim Acosta made a name for himself badgering Trump. Trump had more interviews with “Liberal” reporters than Obama and Biden did and will have with people from “Conservative “ Networks combined.

5. Ironically it’s Social Media Companies that shut him down. A true Authoritarian would have never allowed that to happen

6 and 7. Those protests were out of control. A true Authoritarian would not have allowed them and would have been far more violent in putting them own.

8. Trumps biggest failing was NOT firing a massive amount of people at the start of his Administration. Just like every other previous President has done.

As for banning books etc some books simply are not suitable for children of all ages. The books are not being banned. They can still be obtained. Just not at school libraries
sstaedtler liked this
By Chippy
Registration Days Posts
#639327
Purple Haize wrote: February 1st, 2022, 9:16 pm
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 5:24 pm
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 4:24 pm I mean, I can restate what I just said, if you want. But wait....you believe Trump is authoritarian? How so?
Well, there’s the whole undermining the democratic process thing that he’s still banging on about.

There’s the banning Muslims from entering the country.

There’s the villainizing and openly threatening media companies.

There’s the restricting press access to only media companies that fawn over him.

There’s the threatening to shut down social media companies.

There’s the sending homeland security troops in to shut down protests in DC.

There’s the threatening to send in the military to shut down protests in other states.

There’s the firing or pushing out of many government officials who attempted to have oversight over him.


Not Trump specifically, but tell me which side is banning books and restricting ideas in schools?


And again, name a prominent Christian leader or institution who are accommodating the left. It’s not a difficult request. If it’s an issue, they must exist, right?
1 He and his followers, for right or wrong, feel the 2020 election was an undermining of the Democratic process. IF he were truly an Authoritarian he’d still be in office.

2 Muslims were never banned from the Country. Citizens from certain Countries, regardless of Religion, were prohibited, with good Administrative reasons, from entering the Country

3. That’s vague. I don’t recall him putting reporters under surveillance like certain past Administrations

4 Jim Acosta made a name for himself badgering Trump. Trump had more interviews with “Liberal” reporters than Obama and Biden did and will have with people from “Conservative “ Networks combined.

5. Ironically it’s Social Media Companies that shut him down. A true Authoritarian would have never allowed that to happen

6 and 7. Those protests were out of control. A true Authoritarian would not have allowed them and would have been far more violent in putting them own.

8. Trumps biggest failing was NOT firing a massive amount of people at the start of his Administration. Just like every other previous President has done.

As for banning books etc some books simply are not suitable for children of all ages. The books are not being banned. They can still be obtained. Just not at school libraries
Good job! I could add some to each of your responses of this, but will only add one very obvious flaw in the MSNBC/CNN mantra of Trump banned Muslims. Citizens from 3 countries were banned. Two were predominantly Muslim and one has no Muslim citizens in their country (N. Korea). MSNBC/CNN does not tell their audience there are 30+ predominantly Muslim countries and 28 + of those countries' citizens were not banned. That's all.
sstaedtler liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639328
About half your critiques are “well, he wasn’t successful in his desire to be authoritarian, so he must not be.” Just because he failed doesn’t mean it’s not his disposition or his aim. We’re lucky to have a system that (just barely) kept him in check.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#639329
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 10:34 pm About half your critiques are “well, he wasn’t successful in his desire to be authoritarian, so he must not be.” Just because he failed doesn’t mean it’s not his disposition or his aim. We’re lucky to have a system that (just barely) kept him in check.
To fail at something you must first ATTEMPT something. There was no attempt at authoritarianism so he couldn’t really fail at it
sstaedtler liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639330
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 8:50 pm
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 8:38 pm Yes, using the power of the government to prevent certain ideas from being taught is authoritarianism, full stop. That’s textbook. It may be authoritarianism that you like, but that doesn’t meant it’s not authoritarianism.

And no, CRT doesn’t do what you claim it does. You’ve fallen for Chris Rufo’s rhetorical games. It’s simply a theoretical basis for understanding historical racial disparities.
Ok, so if parents don't want Nazi or Stalinist doctrine taught, then the parental rejection would somehow equate to authoritarian suppression, according to your definition.

Maybe, it's not such a bad idea to teach the basics and let people decide for themselves whether or not they want to be exposed to radical ideology or religious dogma.
We’re not talking about parental rejection, we’re talking about legislative rejection. And, yes, if the government were to enact laws banning people from learning about Nazi ideology, that’s authoritarian. We may all be ok with it, but it’s still authoritarian.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639331
Purple Haize wrote: February 1st, 2022, 10:35 pm
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 10:34 pm About half your critiques are “well, he wasn’t successful in his desire to be authoritarian, so he must not be.” Just because he failed doesn’t mean it’s not his disposition or his aim. We’re lucky to have a system that (just barely) kept him in check.
To fail at something you must first ATTEMPT something. There was no attempt at authoritarianism so he couldn’t really fail at it
It seems like you’re saying either he meets the authoritarian ideal like Kim Jong Un or he’s not authoritarian. He tried to do authoritarian things and threatened to do authoritarian things, just because we didn’t turn into North Korea doesn’t mean the man wasn’t an authoritarian.

Here’s some light reading on the subject:

https://www.newsweek.com/harvard-politi ... acy-778425


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... tale-signs
- a really interesting catch in this article from 2018, two years before the presidential election:

“Trump’s recent attempts to undermine the election results in Arizona and Florida served two purposes, said Ruth Ben-Ghiat, a professor of history at New York University specializing in fascism. The president was testing his ability to corrupt the results of the election, she said, but also pursuing “an authoritarian attempt to make our reality uncertain”.


https://www.yahoo.com/now/trump-authori ... 09827.html


And just for equal representation, a counterpoint :wink:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/16/le ... ol-freaks/
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#639332
You gave a list. Nothing on that list is true. I detailed why. You have not refuted any of it. Your only defense is “well I think he thought about it. And if he would have done X then it would make my point”. But he didn’t do X. His statements while less polished were nothing other Presidents didn’t say. His actions were less authoritarian then our current Administration. Again, what did he do or attempt to do? You wanna bring up the election, fine what did he do that was illegal? What did he do that was authoritarian? He might have wanted things to turn out a certain way. He absolutely feels that democracy was subverted but so what? His actions do not fit the He’s an Authoritarian narrative. Especially in comparison to what other Presidents have done.
jinxy, sstaedtler liked this
By rtb72
Posts
#639334
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 8:12 pm
paradox wrote: February 1st, 2022, 7:03 pm
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 5:24 pm


And again, name a prominent Christian leader or institution who are accommodating the left. It’s not a difficult request. If it’s an issue, they must exist, right?
Throughout history this has been the case. They don't necessarily have to be relevant or household names. In most cases, they're not.
If you don’t have any examples, just say that.
Let me introduce you to the conundrum that presently plagues the global Methodist church.
stokesjokes liked this
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#639335
rogers3 wrote: February 1st, 2022, 11:31 pm So can we now turn this into another Trump thread?
It’s all about Trump. :D :D :D Everything is his fault.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639336
One thing the election piece hinges on is whether or not you believe Trump actually believes the things he says about the election, or if he used the rhetoric as a tool to try to overthrow the results. Don’t forget he also made phone calls to state election officials to try to intimidate them into “finding him votes.”

Plenty on the list is true. I’ll give you that I misunderstood the Muslim ban, but everything else on the list is true. You’ve just decided that it doesn’t meet your bar for authoritarianism. It’s not enough for you that he threatened the media and declared them enemies of the people, he would have had to actually shut them down. Same thing for the social media companies. We’re not talking about “I think he thought about it.” He said and did these things, you’ve just set the bar for authoritarianism higher than that. You think threatening to use the military to quash protests doesn’t count because he didn’t actually do it (or I guess because you think it would have been justified?).

Certainly Biden has done authoritarian things in his COVID response. He’s not the one at issue here. I’ve got no problem saying he’s done authoritarian things too. And even if you wanted to say Biden’s stuff is worse, that doesn’t make Trump’s stuff not authoritarian. Apparently it’s just not authoritarian enough for you.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#639339
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 11:36 pm One thing the election piece hinges on is whether or not you believe Trump actually believes the things he says about the election, or if he used the rhetoric as a tool to try to overthrow the results. Don’t forget he also made phone calls to state election officials to try to intimidate them into “finding him votes.”

Plenty on the list is true. I’ll give you that I misunderstood the Muslim ban, but everything else on the list is true. You’ve just decided that it doesn’t meet your bar for authoritarianism. It’s not enough for you that he threatened the media and declared them enemies of the people, he would have had to actually shut them down. Same thing for the social media companies. We’re not talking about “I think he thought about it.” He said and did these things, you’ve just set the bar for authoritarianism higher than that. You think threatening to use the military to quash protests doesn’t count because he didn’t actually do it (or I guess because you think it would have been justified?).

Certainly Biden has done authoritarian things in his COVID response. He’s not the one at issue here. I’ve got no problem saying he’s done authoritarian things too. And even if you wanted to say Biden’s stuff is worse, that doesn’t make Trump’s stuff not authoritarian. Apparently it’s just not authoritarian enough for you.
And again you lead with something that is a great talking point but not true. When taken in context The way he asked about finding votes was similar to a coach saying we gotta find a way to get more points. Sure taken out of context it sounds awful but it really wasn’t
You go back to social media companies and double down. Twitter is still here. As is Facebook and YouTube. You say he shut down Social Media sites. Ok. Which ones? MySpace? Tinder?
As for the Media, yeah. His rhetoric is proving true. Now more than ever. If you trust what you are hearing from the likes of CNN NBC Fox and ‘Fact Checkers” that on you
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#639340
If you listen to the tape, he’s trying to intimidate. He slips into just saying what he wants instead of following his talking points about a stolen election. Nevermind that it was completely inappropriate to have the phone call in the first place.

And again, no one is saying Trump shut down social media companies. I’m saying he threatened to do so. Same with media companies. Apparently threats don’t count for you.
User avatar
By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#639341
stokesjokes wrote: February 1st, 2022, 11:59 pm If you listen to the tape, he’s trying to intimidate. He slips into just saying what he wants instead of following his talking points about a stolen election. Nevermind that it was completely inappropriate to have the phone call in the first place.

And again, no one is saying Trump shut down social media companies. I’m saying he threatened to do so. Same with media companies. Apparently threats don’t count for you.
Presidents have threatened all sorts of things. But I look more at their actions. And his actions were far from Authoritarian
sstaedtler liked this
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#639342
Sorry to say, that our good friend Stokes here, waisted all this precious time and energy, simply because he refuses to acknowledge the fact that such a description as WOKE exists, and people, do indeed, know what it means.
User avatar
By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#639345
The word woke has lost all meaning and the only people I hear using it now are conservatives trying to own the libs. It is a strategy to instill fear in people and it works. It works so well people aren't even realizing they are being worked. Just look at this thread. It is kind of sad but also fascinating from a psychological perspective.
Dondi Costin - LU President

Ive gone there a few times since moving to texas b[…]

There’s a cerebral side to the game, which M[…]

NCAA Realignment Megathread

Duke Gonzaga B12? https://larrybrownsports.com/co[…]

FlameFans Fantasy Baseball

We are on!!! Hope to see everyone tonight at 9:30[…]