This is the location for conversations that don't fall anywhere else on FlameFans. Whether its politics, culture, the latest techno stuff or just the best places to travel on the web ... this is your forum.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

User avatar
By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#625824
While I agree completely, Gen Zers have a completely different perspective base don their complete lack of trust of the generations that came before them. While they may have the best intentons, many of our Evangelical Christian kids are buying up nearly all these theoretical postulations involving race in particular.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625827
paradox wrote: May 6th, 2021, 11:31 pm Pretending to know the intensions of other people's hearts is both disingenuous and pompous.
I think this is why we’ve seen such a strong reaction to CRT. People hear some of these things and feel accused of something so they get defensive.

Intentions aren’t the issue, outcomes are. If you unknowingly did something that hurt someone else and they called your attention to it, the mature response is “oh, I didn’t realize, what was the problem and what can I do differently?”

Part of the idea that society and systems are structurally racist is that even without human involvement, these structures would continue to disadvantage people of color. Is that my fault? Of course not! Should I want to do something about it? Absolutely!

I also think part of it is a genuine misunderstanding through an overly individualistic lens. I know some seem to take issue with “grouping” people based on characteristics, but that’s the entire field of sociology. Of course there are going to be individuals in those groups who don’t follow group trends or have the same in-group experiences, but overall we can see clear patterns.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625830
You don't know whether someones intentions come from defensiveness or experience. Self-Examination is what should be valued.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625833
Sly Fox wrote: May 7th, 2021, 1:21 am While I agree completely, Gen Zers have a completely different perspective base don their complete lack of trust of the generations that came before them. While they may have the best intentons, many of our Evangelical Christian kids are buying up nearly all these theoretical postulations involving race in particular.
That's true. The Boomers often criticized X for not trying to change the world and not being critical enough of the past. We were labeled slackers, but there was a realism that you don't see so much anymore. Individual soul-searching.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625834
That’s where the individualism breaks down, self-examination shouldn’t be the end of it. Examine the outcomes, and, more than that, examine the cultures and the systems.

We’ve got this idea that if we search our hearts and can say “well, I’m not racist!” Then we are absolved of responsibility for racial injustice, while at the same time existing in cultures and systems that perpetuate it. What that boils down to is seeking justice for ourselves.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625837
stokesjokes wrote: May 7th, 2021, 9:03 am That’s where the individualism breaks down, self-examination shouldn’t be the end of it. Examine the outcomes, and, more than that, examine the cultures and the systems.

We’ve got this idea that if we search our hearts and can say “well, I’m not racist!” Then we are absolved of responsibility for racial injustice, while at the same time existing in cultures and systems that perpetuate it. What that boils down to is seeking justice for ourselves.
The problem with ideologiy is that it presupposes its own validity. Ideologies also claim to be scientific. But as Karl Popper explains, in order for a theory to be scientific, it has to be falsifiable. It's pretty much worthless to engage with an ideologue because they think that they can see everything through their theories. They even claim to have insights into the intentions and motivations of those that simply find their ideals unconvincing.
sstaedtler liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625840
I don’t understand why you keep going back to intentions and motivations, they aren’t what’s at issue here.

As far as “ideology” goes, I’m having a hard time following your train of thought.

For me, it starts with a simple question: “does institutional, systemic racism exist (aka do our systems/cultures tend to disadvantage people of color)?”

That’s an evidentiary fact. 2nd step is finding a tool to analyze these systems, which CRT seems to do well, although, as with anything, it has flaws and proponents who take it too far.

But if I start with the evidentiary fact, it’s not good enough to just focus on myself and my own intentions. If I’m to seek justice for the oppressed, which is a biblical mandate, I must work to address the systems that make it so.

It doesn’t have to be through CRT, but I find CRT useful for explaining. I have yet to hear anyone anti-CRT offer an alternative other than pretending these issues don’t exist.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625853
You can't possibly know the mind of another's private thoughts. That's the deception of ideology. It claims to be a total revelation about social structures, and even reality itself.
sstaedtler liked this
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#625854
stokesjokes wrote: May 7th, 2021, 9:45 am I don’t understand why you keep going back to intentions and motivations, they aren’t what’s at issue here.

As far as “ideology” goes, I’m having a hard time following your train of thought.

For me, it starts with a simple question: “does institutional, systemic racism exist (aka do our systems/cultures tend to disadvantage people of color)?”

That’s an evidentiary fact. 2nd step is finding a tool to analyze these systems, which CRT seems to do well, although, as with anything, it has flaws and proponents who take it too far.

But if I start with the evidentiary fact, it’s not good enough to just focus on myself and my own intentions. If I’m to seek justice for the oppressed, which is a biblical mandate, I must work to address the systems that make it so.

It doesn’t have to be through CRT, but I find CRT useful for explaining. I have yet to hear anyone anti-CRT offer an alternative other than pretending these issues don’t exist.
I don't see any actual evidence of your "evidentiary fact". It is a fact in evidence that there are disparities in outcome between groups, but this leaves out the role which individual agency plays in outcomes. When you look at the subset of people, regardless of their standing on the intersectional spectrum, who make similar choices, those disparities in outcome pretty much go away.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625856
Individual agency plays a role, just a smaller role than you think. Again, it’s psychology vs sociology.

Let’s take a bad school vs a good school for example:

On an individual level, an exceptional kid at a bad school might make choices that allow him to overcome the poor environment and teaching. Exceptional individuals can make it out and be successful. Overall, the kids at the bad school will do poorly.

The exceptional kid at the bad school may have just as much success as anyone at the good school, but, overall, the kids at the good school with a good environment and good teachers are going to do better.

Now, what you’re saying is that individual agency trumps all, so there’s no need to address the poor environment and bad teaching in the bad school. The kids just need to make better choices.

And I do want to point out a few things regarding disparities in outcomes being the same as long as the choices are the same.

1. A disadvantaged kid may not have access to the same choices as an advantaged kid. A disadvantaged kid also may not know what his choices are.

2. Even if we are to disregard implicit bias entirely, a 200 year history of explicit bias does not make for modern equity, even if the laws no longer contain explicit bias. Remember, segregation, red-lining, etc didn’t end until the 60s. Poor education, lack of generational wealth, and a whole host of barriers the current black community faces can be directly linked back to those explicit policies.

3. We also have plenty of evidence that what you suggest isn’t true. People of color are given longer sentences for the same crimes with same criminal records. People with black sounding names on their job applications are less likely to get called back. People of color are more likely to be denied mortgage loans or are offered loans with worse terms. Those are a few off the top of my head, I’m sure there’s more.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#625857
stokesjokes wrote: May 7th, 2021, 12:21 pm Individual agency plays a role, just a smaller role than you think. Again, it’s psychology vs sociology.

Let’s take a bad school vs a good school for example:

On an individual level, an exceptional kid at a bad school might make choices that allow him to overcome the poor environment and teaching. Exceptional individuals can make it out and be successful. Overall, the kids at the bad school will do poorly.

The exceptional kid at the bad school may have just as much success as anyone at the good school, but, overall, the kids at the good school with a good environment and good teachers are going to do better.

Now, what you’re saying is that individual agency trumps all, so there’s no need to address the poor environment and bad teaching in the bad school. The kids just need to make better choices.

And I do want to point out a few things regarding disparities in outcomes being the same as long as the choices are the same.

1. A disadvantaged kid may not have access to the same choices as an advantaged kid. A disadvantaged kid also may not know what his choices are.

2. Even if we are to disregard implicit bias entirely, a 200 year history of explicit bias does not make for modern equity, even if the laws no longer contain explicit bias. Remember, segregation, red-lining, etc didn’t end until the 60s. Poor education, lack of generational wealth, and a whole host of barriers the current black community faces can be directly linked back to those explicit policies.

3. We also have plenty of evidence that what you suggest isn’t true. People of color are given longer sentences for the same crimes with same criminal records. People with black sounding names on their job applications are less likely to get called back. People of color are more likely to be denied mortgage loans or are offered loans with worse terms. Those are a few off the top of my head, I’m sure there’s more.
You have clearly bought into this hook, line and sinker, so I'm not even going to try to dissuade you at this point, but I will point out a clear falsehood in your interpretation of my earlier post. I neither said nor implied that there is no need to address poor environments or bad teaching. I simply pointed out that personal agency exists, and personal choices can totally change outcomes, which is *true*, but is totally rejected by CRT, which promotes a culture of victimhood, and places *all* the blame for outcome disparities on "systemic racism".
JK37, sstaedtler liked this
User avatar
By FlamesHighontheTide
Registration Days Posts
#625859
If you want a thoroughly Biblical view of CRT and the poison that it is, please please please check out Dr. Voddie Baucham's book entitled "Fault Lines : The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe". It is an excellent resource that in my opinion every Christian needs to read.
TH Spangler, sstaedtler liked this
User avatar
By FlamesHighontheTide
Registration Days Posts
#625867
It started well before Foxnews mentioned it 552 times in the last month. Human Resources departments have been pushing it without saying it for the last decade and it has crept its way into some Biblical colleges and seminaries over the last decade as well.
sstaedtler liked this
User avatar
By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#625868
FlamesHighontheTide wrote: May 7th, 2021, 1:22 pm If you want a thoroughly Biblical view of CRT and the poison that it is, please please please check out Dr. Voddie Baucham's book entitled "Fault Lines : The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe". It is an excellent resource that in my opinion every Christian needs to read.
8 bucks, worth much more

https://www.belomero.com/Fault-Lines-Th ... p_126.html
By flamehunter
Registration Days Posts
#625870
adam42381 wrote: May 7th, 2021, 3:00 pm Here's where it's coming from:

https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/f ... -obsession
Rufo also serves as a senior fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, focusing on “domestic policy studies,” and is the former director of the Center on Wealth & Poverty at the Discovery Institute, a think tank which promotes — among other things — the idea of “intelligent design.”
Oh the horror!!!
This quote should tell you that the entire smear claiming to be a news article is coming from a totally godless viewpoint. Yet many of you will trumpet it as a reason that conservative ideology is the ungodly side. Having said that I don't follow Fox News very closely and frankly don't like any news source out there any more. They all have an agenda. But stop throwing crap bombs at crap. As Christians (I hope) you all should be better than that.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#625877
stokesjokes wrote: May 7th, 2021, 1:06 pm On that point, we can agree. I think that’s taking CRT too far.
But that is *exactly* where it's leading voices are. Ibram X. Kendi, Ta-Nehisi Coates, Robin DiAngelo etc. constantly hammer that dogma, and it is replicated on college campuses and in corporate HR offices across the country. The "CRT Lite" you seem to be referring to is virtually non-existent, because anyone who strays the least bit from the narrative is cancelled. I'm encouraged by the fact that some of the most articulate and effective voices stepping up to condemn it are African-Americans.
sstaedtler liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625880
Certainly the most well-known authors are going to be so because they are the most provocative. I also want to acknowledge that if your only interactions with their work is through criticisms of their work, you’re getting a caricature of their work.

This does not mean that there aren’t authors who engage with it in a more nuanced way. Jemar Tisby, Rasool Berry, and Nathan Cartagena seem to be solid voices here.

The problem with the approach of throwing the whole thing out because some of its proponents take it too far, is that CRT can be very helpful and instructive in understanding systemic racism and it’s effects. When you throw the whole thing away, you throw away the solid meat there too, which, sadly, means those systemic issues will remain. It sends the message to our black brothers and sisters that we care more about our ideological war than addressing the injustice they face.
User avatar
By FlamesHighontheTide
Registration Days Posts
#625882
I have no problem throwing out all the meat when all the meat comes directly from an anti-God & anti-Scripture worldview. You said, "CRT can be very helpful and instructive in understanding systemic racism and it's effects." This statement has been the war cry of certain seminary presidents and well-known pastors in the SBC. The problem with this statement is the implication that Scripture isnt sufficient enough to tackle in a complete sense the sin of racism. The Bible is all-sufficient, not 99% sufficient. Therefore, we do not need CRT/I to help us understand the sin of racism.
sstaedtler liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625885
FlamesHighontheTide wrote: May 8th, 2021, 10:44 am I have no problem throwing out all the meat when all the meat comes directly from an anti-God & anti-Scripture worldview. You said, "CRT can be very helpful and instructive in understanding systemic racism and it's effects." This statement has been the war cry of certain seminary presidents and well-known pastors in the SBC. The problem with this statement is the implication that Scripture isnt sufficient enough to tackle in a complete sense the sin of racism. The Bible is all-sufficient, not 99% sufficient. Therefore, we do not need CRT/I to help us understand the sin of racism.
This just doesn’t make any sense. The Bible doesn’t explain germ theory, but I’m sure you’re ok using it when you’re sick.
User avatar
By FlamesHighontheTide
Registration Days Posts
#625886
Germ theory is not a worldview while CRT/I is and it is a direct child of Marxism which is a godless ideology. If we as Christians make claims like, "I want our faculty and students to be aware of CRT and where they raise really good questions and where they expose underlying, hidden aspects of racism, I am thankful for that"(Dr. Danny Akin, president of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary), then we are advocating for the use of this worldview in addition to Scripture to find these hidden aspects of racism. As I said above, as Christians we believe that God's word is all-sufficient and therefore since it is there is no need for the worldview of CRT/I. The Bible gives us clearly all we need to know about the sin of racism.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625890
Dr. Akin is a wise man.

You throw around scare terms like “godless.” Capitalism is “godless,” does that mean we throw that out too?

We use extra-Biblical tools for understanding every day. Economic theories, psychological theories, scientific theories, theories of government, but you’re arbitrarily drawing a line around this one thing because it’s “adding to the Bible?”

I wonder if this is a result of over-individualizing racism to a personal sin issue. If that’s all you’re able to see and you want to neglect anything institutional or systemic, then you don’t need a tool like CRT.
User avatar
By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#625892
stokesjokes go read it.

Fault Lines: The Social Justice Movement and Evangelicalism's Looming Catastrophe

USA TODAY BESTSELLER!

The Ground Is Moving

The death of George Floyd at the hands of police in the summer of 2020 shocked the nation. As riots rocked American cities, Christians affirmed from the pulpit and in social media that “black lives matter” and that racial justice “is a gospel issue.”

But what if there is more to the social justice movement than those Christians understand? Even worse: What if they’ve been duped into preaching ideas that actually oppose the Kingdom of God?

In this powerful book, Voddie Baucham, a preacher, professor, and cultural apologist, explains the sinister worldview behind the social justice movement and Critical Race Theory—revealing how it already has infiltrated some seminaries, leading to internal denominational conflict, canceled careers, and lost livelihoods. Like a fault line, it threatens American culture in general—and the evangelical church in particular.

Whether you’re a layperson who has woken up in a strange new world and wonders how to engage sensitively and effectively in the conversation on race or a pastor who is grappling with a polarized congregation, this book offers the clarity and understanding to either hold your ground or reclaim it.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
LaTech

Looks like we'll have to win with pitching cause t[…]

JMU for 6 games

The fact of the matter is, JMU and Liberty could n[…]

NCAA Realignment Megathread

Honestly, the ACC should've taken Wazzu and Oregon[…]

Dondi Costin - LU President

HEB is alright, but honestly Trader Joe's is my fa[…]