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By LUDad
Posts
#625900
stokesjokes wrote: May 8th, 2021, 1:07 pm
FlamesHighontheTide wrote: May 8th, 2021, 10:44 am I have no problem throwing out all the meat when all the meat comes directly from an anti-God & anti-Scripture worldview. You said, "CRT can be very helpful and instructive in understanding systemic racism and it's effects." This statement has been the war cry of certain seminary presidents and well-known pastors in the SBC. The problem with this statement is the implication that Scripture isnt sufficient enough to tackle in a complete sense the sin of racism. The Bible is all-sufficient, not 99% sufficient. Therefore, we do not need CRT/I to help us understand the sin of racism.
This just doesn’t make any sense. The Bible doesn’t explain germ theory, but I’m sure you’re ok using it when you’re sick.
The bible, through the Fall, explains all corruption (physical, mental or spirtual) at its very essence. Harnful germs are simply a byproduct of the Fall. So is racism.
Last edited by LUDad on May 9th, 2021, 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625913
LUDad wrote: May 8th, 2021, 11:53 pm
stokesjokes wrote: May 8th, 2021, 1:07 pm
FlamesHighontheTide wrote: May 8th, 2021, 10:44 am I have no problem throwing out all the meat when all the meat comes directly from an anti-God & anti-Scripture worldview. You said, "CRT can be very helpful and instructive in understanding systemic racism and it's effects." This statement has been the war cry of certain seminary presidents and well-known pastors in the SBC. The problem with this statement is the implication that Scripture isnt sufficient enough to tackle in a complete sense the sin of racism. The Bible is all-sufficient, not 99% sufficient. Therefore, we do not need CRT/I to help us understand the sin of racism.
This just doesn’t make any sense. The Bible doesn’t explain germ theory, but I’m sure you’re ok using it when you’re sick.
The bible, through the Fall, explains all corruption (physical, mental or spirtual) at its very essence. Harnful germs are simply a byproduct of the Fall. So is racism.
Right, I agree with you. This actually helps me flesh out the comparison better.

The Bible helps us understand why illness and disease exist, it’s the fall and sin’s corruption of God’s design. The Bible does not tell us about bacteria and viruses. We rely on germ theory to help explain the mechanism through which illness and disease affect us. We certainly integrate our faith into our understanding of germ theory, but we readily accept the insights it provides us as it gives us means to address the suffering disease can cause.

In the same way, the Bible can give us the why of racism- sin resulting from the fall. Something like CRT can help us understand the mechanisms through which racism persists and give us insights into what we can do to address it on a systematic level. We can and many do integrate our faith into these insights as well.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625919
TH Spangler wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:19 am
stokesjokes wrote: May 8th, 2021, 9:22 pm I don’t want to pay 8 dollars :lol:

At least the articles I posted were free!
One essential point being made is that they are not talking about justice in general, but rather, a particular idea about justice coming from an ultra-left worldview.
By LUDad
Posts
#625921
stokesjokes wrote: May 9th, 2021, 10:00 am
LUDad wrote: May 8th, 2021, 11:53 pm
stokesjokes wrote: May 8th, 2021, 1:07 pm

This just doesn’t make any sense. The Bible doesn’t explain germ theory, but I’m sure you’re ok using it when you’re sick.
The bible, through the Fall, explains all corruption (physical, mental or spirtual) at its very essence. Harnful germs are simply a byproduct of the Fall. So is racism.
Right, I agree with you. This actually helps me flesh out the comparison better.

The Bible helps us understand why illness and disease exist, it’s the fall and sin’s corruption of God’s design. The Bible does not tell us about bacteria and viruses. We rely on germ theory to help explain the mechanism through which illness and disease affect us. We certainly integrate our faith into our understanding of germ theory, but we readily accept the insights it provides us as it gives us means to address the suffering disease can cause.

In the same way, the Bible can give us the why of racism- sin resulting from the fall. Something like CRT can help us understand the mechanisms through which racism persists and give us insights into what we can do to address it on a systematic level. We can and many do integrate our faith into these insights as well.
Theories about physical science such as germ theory cannot so easily be manipulated. But it still happens i.e., the world is not flat but is a sphere (Isa. 40:22). Sociology theory is much easier to manipulated. Sinful people can and do develop all kinds of theories that "explain" the mechanics of behavior. Problem is many of those theories are developed backwards so that they simply conclude with their predetermined outcome/bias.
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By jbock13
Registration Days Posts
#625924
CRT is really just a religion for leftists. Faith in something that can’t ever be proven or disproven.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625930
jbock13 wrote: May 9th, 2021, 2:06 pm CRT is really just a religion for leftists. Faith in something that can’t ever be proven or disproven.
It is starting to remind me of when people talk about Communism. They can’t define it and when told it’s never actually worked respond by saying “That’s because we’ve never tried it the way it was really supposed to be done’
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625936
thepostman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 6:20 pm I mean most people can't define capitalism either, so I am not sure that is a legit reason to throw something out.
It absolutely is. People who are CRT adherents can’t explain or define it but want us all to adhere to THEIR definition of it. No version of Communism has worked. Whereas even though we can’t define it, several examples of Capitalism have worked
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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625942
Works both ways with CRT though, people with even less of a clue what it is are hell-bent on throwing it out.

Maybe it’s like when the Supreme Court justice said he couldn’t define pornography but “I know it when I see it” :lol:
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By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#625943
Purple Haize wrote:
thepostman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 6:20 pm I mean most people can't define capitalism either, so I am not sure that is a legit reason to throw something out.
It absolutely is. People who are CRT adherents can’t explain or define it but want us all to adhere to THEIR definition of it. No version of Communism has worked. Whereas even though we can’t define it, several examples of Capitalism have worked
There have been definitions shared in this very thread. There are books upon books about it. You can dismiss it, which is fine but what you are saying doesn't actually exist. Are there people who can't define it? Of course. That is true of a lot of things in life, but that doesn't make anything any less or more true.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625944
stokesjokes wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:15 pm Works both ways with CRT though, people with even less of a clue what it is are hell-bent on throwing it out.

Maybe it’s like when the Supreme Court justice said he couldn’t define pornography but “I know it when I see it” :lol:
But non CRT people aren’t trying to shove anything down anyone’s throat. And even when they DO try to define it the CRT types always say “No no no, that’s not what it means’
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625945
thepostman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:16 pm
Purple Haize wrote:
thepostman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 6:20 pm I mean most people can't define capitalism either, so I am not sure that is a legit reason to throw something out.
It absolutely is. People who are CRT adherents can’t explain or define it but want us all to adhere to THEIR definition of it. No version of Communism has worked. Whereas even though we can’t define it, several examples of Capitalism have worked
There have been definitions shared in this very thread. There are books upon books about it. You can dismiss it, which is fine but what you are saying doesn't actually exist. Are the people who can't define it? Of course. That is true of a lot of things in life, but that doesn't make anything any less or more true.
Definitions? Not really. Vague monologues maybe
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By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#625950
If what was provided here wasn't good enough, Google is your friend. Use it.

I don't buy into a lot of what CRT throws down, but pretending people can't define it isn't being intellectually honest.

At the end of the day, our country has a checkered past when it comes to race. We need to continue to strive to be better. I am happy with the improvements there have been just in my lifetime. I hope it continues to improve. I don't believe condemning CRT outright is helpful but I also don't believe buying into it hook line and sinker is helpful. The most helpful thing Is to continue to look outside our own echo chambers and to allow ourselves to be challenged.

It still seems to me that CRT is talked about way more by people who oppose it than those that don't. I don't get that.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625957
thepostman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 7:49 pm If what was provided here wasn't good enough, Google is your friend. Use it.

I don't buy into a lot of what CRT throws down, but pretending people can't define it isn't being intellectually honest.

At the end of the day, our country has a checkered past when it comes to race. We need to continue to strive to be better. I am happy with the improvements there have been just in my lifetime. I hope it continues to improve. I don't believe condemning CRT outright is helpful but I also don't believe buying into it hook line and sinker is helpful. The most helpful thing Is to continue to look outside our own echo chambers and to allow ourselves to be challenged.

It still seems to me that CRT is talked about way more by people who oppose it than those that don't. I don't get that.
I have Googled. The definitions very far and wide. However this is the only thing that seems a constant whether it’s the “Professionals” or the “Diversity Seminar Speakers”
- Everything must be looked at through the lens of Race
- Black people have always been oppressed by white people and will always continue to be.
- White people are by their very nature racist whether they know it or not
- If you disagree with anything any speaker on CRT says it’s just proof that A) you don’t really understand what CRT is all about and B) it’s proof you’re a Racist.
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By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#625960
Sounds like you have your definition then! Thanks for proving me right :lol:

Looks like you are getting your info from people who are a bit more extreme but all of those are certainly conclusions some people have made.

Earlier in this thread, @stokesjokes provided a list of names that are amazing sources on the topic. It is a working theory so you are going to have different takes on said theory. That is kind of how theories work. Which is why Christians shouldn't take it as gospel.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625961
But they are not like scientific theories that can be tested and refuted. They are ideological theories that only "claim" to be scientific. Ideological theories share the same basic narrative. You have the victim. The oppressor. And the ultimate liberation.
Last edited by paradox on May 9th, 2021, 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625962
thepostman wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:31 pm Sounds like you have your definition then! Thanks for proving me right :lol:

Looks like you are getting your info from people who are a bit more extreme but all of those are certainly conclusions some people have made.

Earlier in this thread, @stokesjokes provided a list of names that are amazing sources on the topic. It is a working theory so you are going to have different takes on said theory. That is kind of how theories work. Which is why Christians shouldn't take it as gospel.
You actually make my point. You totally dismiss the fact that maybe I’ve actually taken definitions and phrases from PhD’s who perpetuate the topic to someone who just does Inclusion seminars. Then immediately say my definitions are wrong because someone else working in CRT has a different definition Then finish it up by saying it’s a “working theory”. That’s why this whole topic of conversation is :BS Because there is no way to define it as you just proved.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625964
Purple Haize wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:20 pm - Everything must be looked at through the lens of Race
- Black people have always been oppressed by white people and will always continue to be.
- White people are by their very nature racist whether they know it or not
- If you disagree with anything any speaker on CRT says it’s just proof that A) you don’t really understand what CRT is all about and B) it’s proof you’re a Racist.
This is such bad-faith utter BS that I don’t know where to begin. The only people that would offer these as “tenets” of CRT are the people trying to make you afraid of it. It’s deliberate misrepresentation and you’re smart enough to know that. It’s just downright dishonesty at this point.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625965
Y’all just seem incapable of nuance.

Even if you can’t get a “clear” definition, here’s what you do:

If there are solid, God-honoring people doing CRT work, learn from them. Grow.

If there are people who are doing CRT work that is not God-honoring, leave that alone.

It’s really not that difficult.
By paradox
Registration Days Posts
#625966
It's reductionist. Takes a very complex issue with many twists and turns and reduces it to oppressed victim, ultimately liberated by leftist ideology. It's a counterfeit Gospel.
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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#625967
paradox wrote: May 9th, 2021, 11:03 pm It's reductionist. Takes a very complex issue with many twists and turns and reduces it to oppressed victim, ultimately liberated by leftist ideology. It's a counterfeit Gospel.
See? This is an actual good-faith critique and not just a reheated bad-faith talking point.

This is where CRT-as-worldview breaks down. CRT can be revealing of parts, but it doesn’t paint the whole picture. CRT has insightful things to say about how systems, narratives, and cultures can create and maintain racial inequity. CRT can tell us about pieces of a complex issue, but only pieces. There are also ideologues who will insist on their “solutions” for these inequities. Find the nuance. Find the people who can see the inequities and apply gospel-centered solutions.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#625968
stokesjokes wrote: May 9th, 2021, 10:48 pm
Purple Haize wrote: May 9th, 2021, 9:20 pm - Everything must be looked at through the lens of Race
- Black people have always been oppressed by white people and will always continue to be.
- White people are by their very nature racist whether they know it or not
- If you disagree with anything any speaker on CRT says it’s just proof that A) you don’t really understand what CRT is all about and B) it’s proof you’re a Racist.
This is such bad-faith utter BS that I don’t know where to begin. The only people that would offer these as “tenets” of CRT are the people trying to make you afraid of it. It’s deliberate misrepresentation and you’re smart enough to know that. It’s just downright dishonesty at this point.
The first two statements were taken from several sources but best articulated here. I don’t think these people are trying to make me afraid of it

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