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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623281
https://religionnews.com/2021/03/10/chr ... us-living/

I only post this as I sat down yesterday to embark on beginning to solicit FPU classes at church. It kind of gave me pause to even continue the FPU program.

I've been on an off teaching it at our church for about 15 years. what used to be made up of mostly Dave and a little bit of Jon Acuff, morphed into 1/2 Dave and the rest his daughter and Chris Hogan. And to be honest, it became annoying.

Dave i've always thought was great. I enjoy his show, I believe in his baby step process. I differ in a few areas, namel credit cards and investment philosophy.

But his other personalities have always been awful. starting with Chris Hogan. I have not ever heard any unique investment idea come from his mouth. It basically boils down to 2 answers :

1 whatever dave says
2 find a smartvestorpro

It makes you wonder what even qualified to be in that position in the first place.

same with all the others. none of them are great. and you can see that dave is kind of trying to find a successor to the brand. he takes way more days off, has been doing his show with one of these personalities every day. Its awful.

We decided we'll likely continue to offer the program as it really is a great program and is needed as so many got a wake up call last year.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#623285
My wife is a faithful listener to Dave's show and has always felt meh about Chris. She seems to like Rachel a bit more than Chris. I think it is obvious where Dave is going with the show lately.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623288
Alot of people don't like her and point to her being a silver spoon child. But Thats not the reason I don't like her much. Its just a personality clash for me. Anthony O'neal is for teenagers, the deloney guy and the career guy are just boring.

reading up on all this has been a bit offputting thats for sure.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623291
we would switch back and forth for some time with Crown Financial and FPU. Crown seemed more for people who weren't struggling, but just looking for how to get stuff in order.

Crown was expensive. like 300 bucks so you always got people who were serious and would stick with it.

FPU is 90 and we would often offer "scholarships" for people to take it for nothing (depending upon need) the problem is that we'd start with a number of people and by the time Dave started talking about cutting up credit cards and having some minimal amount in savings, people would drop off like flies.

I mean, there is nothing new to have some savings, stop accumulating debt, pay off debt, pay off home save for retirement, but his system has been really well done.

I feel like Hogan outside of his personal failings never took the true step to be the next guy as ramsey moves on as a "personality". Three are people who you work with who you always hope will be able to take that next step and never do. My guess is dave realized this and with all the other mess that he was involved, with it was time to cut bait.
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By Ill flame
Posts
#623302
stokesjokes wrote: March 11th, 2021, 1:45 pm I’ve always thought FPU was a very helpful class, but hearing more about how Ramsey Solutions operates and the way Dave has shown himself over the past year definitely gives me pause.
Can you elaborate on this more? Im apparently out of the loop.
By jimflamesfan
Registration Days Posts
#623303
I think they are talking about Financial Peace University by David Ramsey. Christian money management. I found a cheaper option that was only 6 weeks long that I did a couple years ago called Freed Up Financial living. It was Hybel's old Willow Creek curriculum that they kindof disavowed when they found out their community groups weren't helping people grow. Personally, I don't think the Willow Creek curriculum is bad at all. I got the books for $6 a piece and dvd for $20. I had people.sign up to come that were interested. About 6 came and stayed through it. As far as listening to show for financial advise I like the Clark Howard show! And also...in Virginia there is this program where the state will cover the cost for 1 time credit counseling for certain issues. Near us they can take a class on creating a budget where a financial planner will pull their credit and go through their income and expenses and help create a budget. I make all of the couples that want to get married go to the session before I do the wedding as part of pre-marital counseling.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#623304
jimflamesfan wrote: March 12th, 2021, 12:11 am I think they are talking about Financial Peace University by David Ramsey. Christian money management. I found a cheaper option that was only 6 weeks long that I did a couple years ago called Freed Up Financial living. It was Hybel's old Willow Creek curriculum that they kindof disavowed when they found out their community groups weren't helping people grow. Personally, I don't think the Willow Creek curriculum is bad at all. I got the books for $6 a piece and dvd for $20. I had people.sign up to come that were interested. About 6 came and stayed through it. As far as listening to show for financial advise I like the Clark Howard show! And also...in Virginia there is this program where the state will cover the cost for 1 time credit counseling for certain issues. Near us they can take a class on creating a budget where a financial planner will pull their credit and go through their income and expenses and help create a budget. I make all of the couples that want to get married go to the session before I do the wedding as part of pre-marital counseling.
Or that Dave Ramsey treats his workers like garbage and himself like a king. Here’s one instance ( ive listened to his show twice. Well parts of it. I actually liked Chris Hogan. He brought a human touch to it)

https://www.tennessean.com/story/news/l ... 482489002/
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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623306
https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dav ... and-covid/

Some highlights:
-interviewing prospective hires spouses “to make sure they aren’t married to crazy”

- quote when people wanted refunds for tickets to live events after the pandemic hit: “ “We have people calling in, they are wanting to cancel stuff for a live event in May — let me tell you how much of your money I am going to give you back if you don’t come for the coronavirus in May,” he said. “ZERO. I am keeping your money. You are a wuss.””

-firing an employee for his wife’s Facebook post questioning the decision to not allow employees to work remotely

-firing another employee for getting pregnant out of wedlock (while at the same time establishing a “restoration plan” for Hogan when his infidelity was revealed years ago)

- Rant after someone complained to OSHA because they weren’t following COVID guidelines:
“So whoever you are, you moron, you did absolutely no good, except tick me off,” he told staff. “You are not welcome here if you are willing to do stuff like that. If you are really scared and you really think that leadership is trying to kill you … please, we love you. Just leave. We really don’t want you here.”
He warned employees not to contact anyone outside the building with their concerns.
“If you really think the people here are evil, bad people and you think that you can effect change by reaching outside of here, you are wrong,” he said. “And you are not welcome.”
Against the recommendation of his board not to address the OSHA complaint, Ramsey said he felt duty-bound to talk about it, because “I love this place and I really don’t want any morons here.” If he found out the person’s identity, he continued, “I will fire you instantaneously for your lack of loyalty, your lack of class, and the fact that you are a moron and you snuck through our hiring process,” he said.

- Dave offering bounties to whoever turns in anonymous employees criticizing the workplace on Twitter

- requiring the Hogans’ marriage counselor to “report back” to Ramsey Solutions as part of Chris Hogan’s restoration plan


Another one that got me:

- After the hotel holding his EntreLeadership conference in July said they were going to require masks: “we’re not going to have someone pay $10,000 for a ticket to have some $8 an hour twerp at Marriott giving them a hard time about wearing a mask.”
https://religionnews.com/2020/12/11/dav ... mas-party/

And here’s the email response to the reporter when he tried to get in touch with Ramsey before going forward with the first story:
https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/ful ... -response/
I was flabbergasted when I first read that. It reads like it could have been written by Dave himself, but at the very least, he OK’ed it.

Dave’s focus on financial independence has a dark side that comes out as pure disdain towards those who don’t make or have enough money in his eyes. It’s there in the hotel quote, it’s there in the email response.

His business is also controlling to the level of abuse on the inside. One of the hallmarks of an abusive family is “we don’t talk about the family” to outsiders. Dave treats his workplace the same.

So as much as Dave’s financial advice is sound, it’s really hard to separate his character and business practices from that.
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By rogers3
Registration Days Posts
#623308
RubberMallet wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:10 pm https://religionnews.com/2021/03/10/chr ... us-living/

I only post this as I sat down yesterday to embark on beginning to solicit FPU classes at church. It kind of gave me pause to even continue the FPU program.

I've been on an off teaching it at our church for about 15 years. what used to be made up of mostly Dave and a little bit of Jon Acuff, morphed into 1/2 Dave and the rest his daughter and Chris Hogan. And to be honest, it became annoying.

Dave i've always thought was great. I enjoy his show, I believe in his baby step process. I differ in a few areas, namel credit cards and investment philosophy.

But his other personalities have always been awful. starting with Chris Hogan. I have not ever heard any unique investment idea come from his mouth. It basically boils down to 2 answers :

1 whatever dave says
2 find a smartvestorpro

It makes you wonder what even qualified to be in that position in the first place.

same with all the others. none of them are great. and you can see that dave is kind of trying to find a successor to the brand. he takes way more days off, has been doing his show with one of these personalities every day. Its awful.

We decided we'll likely continue to offer the program as it really is a great program and is needed as so many got a wake up call last year.
I couldn't help but point out that this is becoming more common in Christian circles. What often was started with good intentions becomes bloated and full of folks who only know how to ride coat tails.
By Yacht Rock
Registration Days Posts
#623309
rogers3 wrote:
RubberMallet wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:10 pm https://religionnews.com/2021/03/10/chr ... us-living/

I only post this as I sat down yesterday to embark on beginning to solicit FPU classes at church. It kind of gave me pause to even continue the FPU program.

I've been on an off teaching it at our church for about 15 years. what used to be made up of mostly Dave and a little bit of Jon Acuff, morphed into 1/2 Dave and the rest his daughter and Chris Hogan. And to be honest, it became annoying.

Dave i've always thought was great. I enjoy his show, I believe in his baby step process. I differ in a few areas, namel credit cards and investment philosophy.

But his other personalities have always been awful. starting with Chris Hogan. I have not ever heard any unique investment idea come from his mouth. It basically boils down to 2 answers :

1 whatever dave says
2 find a smartvestorpro

It makes you wonder what even qualified to be in that position in the first place.

same with all the others. none of them are great. and you can see that dave is kind of trying to find a successor to the brand. he takes way more days off, has been doing his show with one of these personalities every day. Its awful.

We decided we'll likely continue to offer the program as it really is a great program and is needed as so many got a wake up call last year.
I couldn't help but point out that this is becoming more common in Christian circles. What often was started with good intentions becomes bloated and full of folks who only know how to ride coat tails.
Yeah, you're right and I look at it a lot like a crappy band or musician. I don't fault them for selling a million records. If you have mediocre talent and have been able to capitalize off of it, good job. I more blame the audience, customers, and employers who hired and promoted people with little ability.

I say this as someone who's tuned out Dave's stuff for awhile. We did FPU and I think a lot of the steps are helpful but it's more of a "simple" solution than the right solution for everyone. It simplifies finances and makes it accessible for a lot of people and financial literacy and responsibility is a good thing. I haven't listened to enough of Hogan to make heads or tails of his talent but Dave obviously is another example of a business claiming they are a "Christian" organization while not treating their employees as good as non-Christian organizations do.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623312
Ill flame wrote:
stokesjokes wrote: March 11th, 2021, 1:45 pm I’ve always thought FPU was a very helpful class, but hearing more about how Ramsey Solutions operates and the way Dave has shown himself over the past year definitely gives me pause.
Can you elaborate on this more? Im apparently out of the loop.
As one who has had to deal with HR issues, I'll be honest, I take peoples after employment gripes with a grain of salt. I've had to get rid of bad employees who'd basically tell people we weren't really in the edtech space but in the back killing puppies. we've even had people try and file suits.

That said some of this stuff is a bit offputting. especially with hogan and his wife.

I also don't really have an issue with morality clauses as long as they are enforced properly and fairly.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623313
regardly Dave ramsey the person, i feel like he is getting older and has less and less time for people that aren't as ambitious as him. As far as how he runs the business, the NDA stuff for people who are leaving is just wierd. I get it you have a brand to protect and stuff and I know they exist in many other places but for a Christian organization, its wierd. Our long time now retired pastor always said that "Sunlight is the best disinfectant".

Also at the cost of being a hypocrit in some way, i feel like i'd find it difficult to stand in front of Christ someday and justify owning a 15 million dollar home. Regardless of how much of your wealth you have given away.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623314
Yeah, I think we try to justify wealth, excess, and greed by putting percentages on it. Something like “it’s ok for him to have a 15 million dollar home because he gives 30% of his income away.” Or that pastors are “allowed” to have lavish lifestyles, as long as it’s funded by book sales and not ministry. I think that’s missing the point of Jesus’ teachings about wealth entirely.

One of my heroes is Rich Mullins: his music would have made him a very wealthy man, but, instead, he had all income routed through his church. The church would donate the money without Mullins ever knowing how much he made. They would give him the average salary for a laborer for that year. When asked about it, he said that if he knew how much he made, it would make it harder for him to give it away.

He had a very challenging and convicting perspective: “ Jesus said whatever you do to the least of these my brothers you've done it to me. And this is what I've come to think. That if I want to identify fully with Jesus Christ, who I claim to be my Savior and Lord, the best way that I can do that is to identify with the poor. This I know will go against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers. But they're just wrong. They're not bad, they're just wrong. Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in a beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken-hearted.”
User avatar
By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623315
rogers3 wrote:
RubberMallet wrote: March 11th, 2021, 12:10 pm https://religionnews.com/2021/03/10/chr ... us-living/

I only post this as I sat down yesterday to embark on beginning to solicit FPU classes at church. It kind of gave me pause to even continue the FPU program.

I've been on an off teaching it at our church for about 15 years. what used to be made up of mostly Dave and a little bit of Jon Acuff, morphed into 1/2 Dave and the rest his daughter and Chris Hogan. And to be honest, it became annoying.

Dave i've always thought was great. I enjoy his show, I believe in his baby step process. I differ in a few areas, namel credit cards and investment philosophy.

But his other personalities have always been awful. starting with Chris Hogan. I have not ever heard any unique investment idea come from his mouth. It basically boils down to 2 answers :

1 whatever dave says
2 find a smartvestorpro

It makes you wonder what even qualified to be in that position in the first place.

same with all the others. none of them are great. and you can see that dave is kind of trying to find a successor to the brand. he takes way more days off, has been doing his show with one of these personalities every day. Its awful.

We decided we'll likely continue to offer the program as it really is a great program and is needed as so many got a wake up call last year.
I couldn't help but point out that this is becoming more common in Christian circles. What often was started with good intentions becomes bloated and full of folks who only know how to ride coat tails.
I feel like he found chris and realized he had a great voice. hes a communications graduate. I think Dave was looking for some backend stuff to tack on to the FPU program. basically you'd get there, BS4 or whatever and then what. He haas his vague 4 categories....call an ELP thats it. Chris gave him a "expert" but first he'd have to make him into an expert. He sent him to UT to get a masters in finance.

Sometimes I wonder if the reason these guys (and gals) parrot dave on everything and have no original thought is because of the thumb of Dave. and if dave let them have their own opinion maybe they'd shine. Hogan is the only one i almost feel like nope. he was a manufactured "expert".
User avatar
By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623317
stokesjokes wrote:Yeah, I think we try to justify wealth, excess, and greed by putting percentages on it. Something like “it’s ok for him to have a 15 million dollar home because he gives 30% of his income away.” Or that pastors are “allowed” to have lavish lifestyles, as long as it’s funded by book sales and not ministry. I think that’s missing the point of Jesus’ teachings about wealth entirely.

One of my heroes is Rich Mullins: his music would have made him a very wealthy man, but, instead, he had all income routed through his church. The church would donate the money without Mullins ever knowing how much he made. They would give him the average salary for a laborer for that year. When asked about it, he said that if he knew how much he made, it would make it harder for him to give it away.

He had a very challenging and convicting perspective: “ Jesus said whatever you do to the least of these my brothers you've done it to me. And this is what I've come to think. That if I want to identify fully with Jesus Christ, who I claim to be my Savior and Lord, the best way that I can do that is to identify with the poor. This I know will go against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers. But they're just wrong. They're not bad, they're just wrong. Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in a beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken-hearted.”
yeah i believe in the end we'll all have plenty of things we'll have to explain when we get there. We spent 5 million dollars to renovate our church. Many in the church were like could we just deal with the smallness and invest that elsewhere. Some told us THAT wasn't justifiable. So I guess in the end we'll find out in our own situations.
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#623319
stokesjokes wrote: March 12th, 2021, 5:34 pm Yeah, I think we try to justify wealth, excess, and greed by putting percentages on it. Something like “it’s ok for him to have a 15 million dollar home because he gives 30% of his income away.” Or that pastors are “allowed” to have lavish lifestyles, as long as it’s funded by book sales and not ministry. I think that’s missing the point of Jesus’ teachings about wealth entirely.

One of my heroes is Rich Mullins: his music would have made him a very wealthy man, but, instead, he had all income routed through his church. The church would donate the money without Mullins ever knowing how much he made. They would give him the average salary for a laborer for that year. When asked about it, he said that if he knew how much he made, it would make it harder for him to give it away.

He had a very challenging and convicting perspective: “ Jesus said whatever you do to the least of these my brothers you've done it to me. And this is what I've come to think. That if I want to identify fully with Jesus Christ, who I claim to be my Savior and Lord, the best way that I can do that is to identify with the poor. This I know will go against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers. But they're just wrong. They're not bad, they're just wrong. Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in a beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken-hearted.”
This is getting awfully close to the poverty gospel which is just as wrong as the prosperity gospel.

The Gospel is not anti-wealth.

It’s anti-love of wealth.

Our command is to love everyone as ourselves, not just the poor. People in the suburbs need Jesus too.

I agree we shouldn’t have excess like $15 million houses - we are called to a modest lifestyle - but I don’t know that we are called to be poor or that it’s anti-Gospel to be comfortable in life.
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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623321
Agreed, I live in the suburbs, and I need Jesus :lol:

I do worry that comfort and security can be pretty common idols in the church, I know they have been for me. It’s a good idea to be wise with your money, but am I more concerned with my financial security than the needs of my community? Have I elevated a good thing to an ultimate thing, as Keller would say? What’s the line between prudent saving and greedy hoarding? What would I be willing to give if asked?
#623326
Those are all great questions. And that’s why I believe it’s a matter of the heart.

I can only speak for my family, but last year we saved more than ever before and gave away more than ever before. We have money purposefully set aside for when we see a need that we believe Jesus is inviting us to help with. We live well below what we can afford while still living comfortably.

While comfort can get in the way of the Gospel, I don’t think it’s anti-Gospel which is what you seemed to imply in the post I quoted. If I’m wrong in reading that, please let me know.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623329
I can see how it can be read that way. My take on what Mullins meant is that it was important for him to be in relationship with the poor and marginalized to learn the love and compassion Jesus had for them. I think he felt he could understand their struggle better if he wasn’t wealthy, but I don’t think he was ever actually “poor” or would say that he was.
User avatar
By flameshaw
Registration Days Posts
#623332
Never been a fan of Ramsey, mostly because of the things that Purple pointed out. In addition, 99% of the time I know what he is going to say, before he says it................................ very predictable.
I only listen to him now, if he is on when I am taking a nap. Sometimes it takes me a few minutes to wake up enough to turn him off.
Not someone I want to follow. He does have some good advice however about staying out of debt.
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User avatar
By jcmanson
Registration Days Posts
#623337
Jonathan Carone wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:07 pm
stokesjokes wrote: March 12th, 2021, 5:34 pm Yeah, I think we try to justify wealth, excess, and greed by putting percentages on it. Something like “it’s ok for him to have a 15 million dollar home because he gives 30% of his income away.” Or that pastors are “allowed” to have lavish lifestyles, as long as it’s funded by book sales and not ministry. I think that’s missing the point of Jesus’ teachings about wealth entirely.

One of my heroes is Rich Mullins: his music would have made him a very wealthy man, but, instead, he had all income routed through his church. The church would donate the money without Mullins ever knowing how much he made. They would give him the average salary for a laborer for that year. When asked about it, he said that if he knew how much he made, it would make it harder for him to give it away.

He had a very challenging and convicting perspective: “ Jesus said whatever you do to the least of these my brothers you've done it to me. And this is what I've come to think. That if I want to identify fully with Jesus Christ, who I claim to be my Savior and Lord, the best way that I can do that is to identify with the poor. This I know will go against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers. But they're just wrong. They're not bad, they're just wrong. Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in a beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken-hearted.”
This is getting awfully close to the poverty gospel which is just as wrong as the prosperity gospel.

The Gospel is not anti-wealth.

It’s anti-love of wealth.

Our command is to love everyone as ourselves, not just the poor. People in the suburbs need Jesus too.

I agree we shouldn’t have excess like $15 million houses - we are called to a modest lifestyle - but I don’t know that we are called to be poor or that it’s anti-Gospel to be comfortable in life.
Where do we draw the line on excess? We may say a $15M house is excess. Some may say owning a car is excess.

Where are we called to live a modest lifestyle and what is modest?
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User avatar
By jbock13
Registration Days Posts
#623339
Both the prosperity and the poverty gospels are wrong. If you have to put a word in front of the Gospel, you’re doing it wrong.

About Chris Hogan... all the guy was good for was giving each caller a cheerleading speech. The guy didn’t know anything about investing whatsoever, and it was obviously when he was unable to answer any sort of question on the subject. All he would say is basically, “Beep boop, idk, call an ELP so Dave can make some money.”

All of his personalities have no actual experience in the fields they are purported to be experts in, so it makes his show quite unlistenable at this point.
#623340
jcmanson wrote: March 13th, 2021, 9:02 am
Where do we draw the line on excess? We may say a $15M house is excess. Some may say owning a car is excess.

Where are we called to live a modest lifestyle and what is modest?
I believe excess is flaunting your wealth. That’s why it comes back to a heart issue. Did you buy the new car because you drove your last one into the ground and it’s time for something new or did you get it to show people how well off you are?

It’s also a cultural issue. What is excess here is not the same as excess in Japan. Similar to language, it comes down to respecting those around you and the culture you’re living in.

As for modesty - many of the scripture in the New Testament we traditionally project onto how women dress were actually meant as a lifestyle of modesty, not just what you wear. Here’s a quote from a book I’m reading:

“In Timothy’s church in Ephesus, some women were dressing inappropriately. Again we might assume Paul is concerned about sexual modesty.

Contextually, however, a case can be made that Paul meant, “Women should dress economically modestly” so as not to flaunt their wealth. The remainder of 1 Timothy 2:9 reads, “with decency and propriety . . . not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes.” Paul mentions a triad of trouble (anger, quarreling/disputes and economics) for women here in 1 Timothy 2:8–9.

But this is not solely a “feminine problem. He applies the same triad in the following passage addressed to the men: “not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money” (1 Tim 3:3). Our cultural mores tell us sexual modesty is necessary while economic modesty is considerate: preferable but not necessary.

In other words, one of the ways Westerners routinely misread instructions about modesty in the Bible is by assuming sexual modesty is of greater concern than economic modesty. Where two mores—sex and money—collide, we see which is more important to us. And when we project our own cultural mores onto the original audience of the Bible, we may fail to apply the Bible correctly in our own lives.”
Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes by E. Randolph Richards & Brandon J. O'Brien
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