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By Purple Haize
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#623343
What if I bought a new car because I wanted one? Is that excess? What if I wanted a house in a nicer neighborhood? Is that excess? If I but a lake house to use on the weekends, is that excessive?
Who are you/we to judge what’s excessive?
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By thepostman
Registration Days Posts
#623345
Depends is the answer to all of these questions. Which is what I think Jon is saying. I might be wrong.

Money is talked about a ton in the Bible. Jesus brings it up a lot too. There is a very fine line and ultimately it is between you and God. It doesn't take much for money and acquiring things to start ruling our lives.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623348
I’m not as subjective on this as you guys are. Yes, a lake house would be excessive. That’s an immodest display of wealth. If you’re buying a nicer house just to be in a “nicer” neighborhood, that’s probably excessive as well. I’d go ahead and say most American Christians, myself included, spend too much money on themselves or save too much money for themselves.

I think by saying things like “it’s a matter of the heart,” it’s an easy way to cover over our own excesses and leans towards a permissive road I don’t want to go down.

Sure, the “poverty gospel” isn’t the true gospel, but which is more in-line with Christian ethics: giving away “too much” of your money or keeping too much?
#623349
Our commands are:

Love your neighbor as yourself
Give sacrificially to those in need
Take care of the poor and widows
Don’t flaunt your wealth

If you’re doing those things and have money left over, do as you wish. But I would say you should also be finding ways to use that lake house for the sake of the gospel. Can ministry teams host meetings and retreats there at no cost during the week? On weekends you're not using it, can you give it do another couple friend to get away and work on their marriage? Are you using that lake house solely for your enjoyment or are you using it to further the Gospel?

And as for the car? If you’ve given sacrificially already, can afford it, and are buying it for you (and not to flex on others), then go for it. We don't have to drive beaters just because we're Christians.

Those are heart issues.

The idea of putting limits as to too much or not enough is one I can’t get behind. God used rich people all throughout the Bible to further his purpose.

As I have earned more money the past few years than I ever thought I’d earn, I’ve realized how fun it is to be able to give stuff away and take care of those around you. I’ve also learned how not having to worry about bills and the day-to-day money issues (ie comfort) can open me up to looking for opportunities to do things for Jesus I otherwise wouldn’t have been able to do when I was worried about money.

So yes - comfort can be the thing that makes Christians fall asleep, but it can also be the thing that allows them the freedom to do more for Jesus.
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By Cider Jim
Registration Days Posts
#623350
Purple Haize wrote: March 13th, 2021, 1:43 pm If I but a lake house to use on the weekends, is that excessive?
Reminds me of JB's "house with a pool" analogy. ;)
By JK37
Registration Days Posts
#623352
Ramsey’s good on debt. Little else. His advice is so predictable. He found a way to fill the gap for those who needed to be told what others could figure out for themselves. Common sense isn’t so common. That said, I don’t blame him for such a savvy business decision. Appealing to Christians was a stroke of genius, too. The deifying he experiences in the Church is disgusting and sad. At his core, he’s a bookseller. Nothing wrong with that. His topics appeal to the masses. If you want to sell a lot of books, find a topic that appeals to a lot of people: debt.

I don’t blame him for making money. I fault him for giving advice while sustaining no consequence for it. It’s good work if you can live with it. I suppose.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#623353
stokesjokes wrote: March 13th, 2021, 2:54 pm I’m not as subjective on this as you guys are. Yes, a lake house would be excessive. That’s an immodest display of wealth. If you’re buying a nicer house just to be in a “nicer” neighborhood, that’s probably excessive as well. I’d go ahead and say most American Christians, myself included, spend too much money on themselves or save too much money for themselves.

I think by saying things like “it’s a matter of the heart,” it’s an easy way to cover over our own excesses and leans towards a permissive road I don’t want to go down.

Sure, the “poverty gospel” isn’t the true gospel, but which is more in-line with Christian ethics: giving away “too much” of your money or keeping too much?
In your world view having more than one house is excessive. Even having a nicer house than you currently own is excessive. Your next stop is to tell us what type of house is excessive. What type of car is excessive. What type of vacation is excessive.
You are going to need to show mr where the Gospel talks about giving away all of your money. Giving enough money to say.....build a hockey arena with your name on it could seem excessive. What’s the Gospel definition of “too much”?
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#623354
Cider Jim wrote: March 13th, 2021, 4:42 pm
Purple Haize wrote: March 13th, 2021, 1:43 pm If I but a lake house to use on the weekends, is that excessive?
Reminds me of JB's "house with a pool" analogy. ;)
Apparently a pool would be excessive
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#623356
thepostman wrote: March 13th, 2021, 2:34 pm Depends is the answer to all of these questions. Which is what I think Jon is saying. I might be wrong.

Money is talked about a ton in the Bible. Jesus brings it up a lot too. There is a very fine line and ultimately it is between you and God. It doesn't take much for money and acquiring things to start ruling our lives.
No. He’s not saying that.
The correct answer is it’s none of my business. The only caveat I’d place on it are those in the Ministry One of the best lessons I learned working in a church was you don’t want to have the nicest car in the parking lot, wear the nicest clothes on Sunday and go home to the nicest house every day in relation to your congregation
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By flameshaw
Registration Days Posts
#623357
jcmanson wrote: March 13th, 2021, 9:02 am
Jonathan Carone wrote: March 12th, 2021, 7:07 pm
stokesjokes wrote: March 12th, 2021, 5:34 pm Yeah, I think we try to justify wealth, excess, and greed by putting percentages on it. Something like “it’s ok for him to have a 15 million dollar home because he gives 30% of his income away.” Or that pastors are “allowed” to have lavish lifestyles, as long as it’s funded by book sales and not ministry. I think that’s missing the point of Jesus’ teachings about wealth entirely.

One of my heroes is Rich Mullins: his music would have made him a very wealthy man, but, instead, he had all income routed through his church. The church would donate the money without Mullins ever knowing how much he made. They would give him the average salary for a laborer for that year. When asked about it, he said that if he knew how much he made, it would make it harder for him to give it away.

He had a very challenging and convicting perspective: “ Jesus said whatever you do to the least of these my brothers you've done it to me. And this is what I've come to think. That if I want to identify fully with Jesus Christ, who I claim to be my Savior and Lord, the best way that I can do that is to identify with the poor. This I know will go against the teachings of all the popular evangelical preachers. But they're just wrong. They're not bad, they're just wrong. Christianity is not about building an absolutely secure little niche in the world where you can live with your perfect little wife and your perfect little children in a beautiful little house where you have no gays or minority groups anywhere near you. Christianity is about learning to love like Jesus loved and Jesus loved the poor and Jesus loved the broken-hearted.”
This is getting awfully close to the poverty gospel which is just as wrong as the prosperity gospel.

The Gospel is not anti-wealth.

It’s anti-love of wealth.

Our command is to love everyone as ourselves, not just the poor. People in the suburbs need Jesus too.

I agree we shouldn’t have excess like $15 million houses - we are called to a modest lifestyle - but I don’t know that we are called to be poor or that it’s anti-Gospel to be comfortable in life.
Where do we draw the line on excess? We may say a $15M house is excess. Some may say owning a car is excess.

Where are we called to live a modest lifestyle and what is modest?
We're not. The love of money is a sin, not how one spends it.
Kinda ironic to hear someone who preaches love others like Christ loved us, especially gays and minorities, as long as they are not conservative Republicans. Makes the talk very hollow, shallow. :roll: :shock:
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623359
Purple Haize wrote: March 13th, 2021, 5:26 pm You are going to need to show mr where the Gospel talks about giving away all of your money.
You mean other than Jesus’ most well-known teaching about wealth? Something about camels and needles?

I know, we try to explain that one away and say “well, that was specific to the rich young ruler,” but even before this in Luke 12, he’s teaching to an “innumerable multitude” and says “sell your possessions and give to the needy.” It’s a lot harder to wiggle out of that one.

It’s even in the sermon on the mount, the foundation for all of Jesus’ teaching: “woe to you who are rich, for you have received your reward.”

I know we spend a lot of energy trying to say that Jesus didn’t really mean these things, that we can’t trust a plain reading, etc. We do that when the implications make us uncomfortable.

At the very least, the story of the poor widow in Mark 12 shows us that we should give so much that it makes us uncomfortable, not simply out of our abundance.
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By flameshaw
Registration Days Posts
#623363
I guess David, "a man after God's own heart" was a poor king? Solomon? Abraham?, etc. It is a paradox for sure. My own belief is that when things, money, become an idol, or impact our love for God, it becomes wrong.
I know many, very wealthy people, who bless others with their wealth, are humble, love God and live in big houses and drive big cars. Some of them even live in communities with minorities and gay people. :shock: :shock: :D
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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623365
Interestingly, Solomon’s wealth is framed in direct paralleled contradiction to Deuteronomic law about how Israelite kings are supposed to limit their wealth (shout out to Tim Mackie of the Bible project for that tidbit). We are supposed to understand that Solomon accumulating wealth was him disobeying God.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#623368
stokesjokes wrote: March 13th, 2021, 7:01 pm
Purple Haize wrote: March 13th, 2021, 5:26 pm You are going to need to show mr where the Gospel talks about giving away all of your money.
You mean other than Jesus’ most well-known teaching about wealth? Something about camels and needles?

I know, we try to explain that one away and say “well, that was specific to the rich young ruler,” but even before this in Luke 12, he’s teaching to an “innumerable multitude” and says “sell your possessions and give to the needy.” It’s a lot harder to wiggle out of that one.

It’s even in the sermon on the mount, the foundation for all of Jesus’ teaching: “woe to you who are rich, for you have received your reward.”

I know we spend a lot of energy trying to say that Jesus didn’t really mean these things, that we can’t trust a plain reading, etc. We do that when the implications make us uncomfortable.

At the very least, the story of the poor widow in Mark 12 shows us that we should give so much that it makes us uncomfortable, not simply out of our abundance.
Your hermeneutics need some help. The readings don’t make me uncomfortable. But your poor interpretation of them do.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#623369
stokesjokes wrote: March 13th, 2021, 8:04 pm Interestingly, Solomon’s wealth is framed in direct paralleled contradiction to Deuteronomic law about how Israelite kings are supposed to limit their wealth (shout out to Tim Mackie of the Bible project for that tidbit). We are supposed to understand that Solomon accumulating wealth was him disobeying God.
Gods original plan was for Israel to have no king.
David was pretty wealthy. Wanted to build the temple.
Solomon built it to God specifications. Couldn’t do that without money
Job was possibly one of the richest men of his time. As was Abraham (non Royalty)
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623374
Common misconception, God planned for Israel to have a king.

From Deuteronomy 17:

14 “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, (A)‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ 15 you may indeed set a king over you (B)whom the Lord your God will choose. One (C)from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. 16 Only he must not acquire many (D)horses for himself or cause the people (E)to return to Egypt in order to acquire many horses, since the Lord has said to you, (F)‘You shall never return that way again.’ 17 And he (G)shall not acquire many wives for himself, lest his heart turn away, (H)nor shall he acquire for himself excessive silver and gold.“
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By flameshaw
Registration Days Posts
#623375
stokesjokes wrote: March 13th, 2021, 8:04 pm Interestingly, Solomon’s wealth is framed in direct paralleled contradiction to Deuteronomic law about how Israelite kings are supposed to limit their wealth (shout out to Tim Mackie of the Bible project for that tidbit). We are supposed to understand that Solomon accumulating wealth was him disobeying God.
I respect your ideas and inclinations. However, what Tim Mackie, or any other human being may think, is immaterial to me. If it is not immediately clear in the Bible, it is just an opinion. And you know what they say about opinions.
I used to study the Bible and associated reference books quite often. What I found, is that for every subject, one could find another opinion or study to say almost the opposite, or certainly a vastly differing viewpoint.
In the end, maybe due to age or experience, I have simplified my beliefs-especially those that deal with scripture- to what is obvious and in clear-view. (not like Schiff-head). It has been very helpful/liberating.
Some hills are worth dying on, but very,very,very, few.
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#623376
Definitely agree on the last sentence.

Tim Mackie’s point of view is interesting to me because he’s all about what he calls “design patterns” in the text- things are written specifically in ways to make you recall other things you would have already read or would be familiar with. Unfortunately for us reading thousands of years later and through the filter of translation, much of what would have been glaringly obvious to those reading it in the original context and language gets lost on us. In fact, translators will purposely remove a lot of the repetition and structure that these cues rely on because it would sound stilted in English.
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By LUAlum1215
Posts
#623408
I've long followed Dave and subscribed to the FPU plan/method/etc back since his TV show on Fox Business more than a decade ago. I've taught FPU at church and pushed/given the program to those I thought could benefit from it. As far as the practical advice I agree with almost all of it. But in all likelihood I'm done with FPU. I follow a FB group of FPU coordinators to keep tabs on the program and how it changes and issues others are coming across. Since I last taught, the program has been morphed into several different "memberships" now where the only thing that changes much is the name and cost but the benefits stay the same. Every book I've read from Ramsey Solutions seemingly has the same text with a different cover. After a few different runs through the same ringer, I'd pretty much decided to be done with FPU. I'd heard some rumors that Dave was going off the deep end but didn't realize to the extent that was true until reading some of the articles linked in this thread. Instead of continuing to push this company and their product my wife and I have decided to study money, finances, and possessions from a Biblical perspective ourselves and "write" our own study to lead at church. We really believe personal finance is one of the most important but lacking areas of knowledge for a lot of people so if we can help we want to, but not by using FPU any longer.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623512
jbock13 wrote: About Chris Hogan... all the guy was good for was giving each caller a cheerleading speech. The guy didn’t know anything about investing whatsoever, and it was obviously when he was unable to answer any sort of question on the subject. All he would say is basically, “Beep boop, idk, call an ELP so Dave can make some money.”

All of his personalities have no actual experience in the fields they are purported to be experts in, so it makes his show quite unlistenable at this point.
"GET GAZELLE INTENSE!" there was one day we were driving to CO and he was alone doing the show. And my wife (who took FPU with me 10 years ago but otherwise has no interest in any of this) was like, this guy hasn't answered 1 question in the hour we've been listening. Either that or hes' instructed them to call someone else!" I hadn't even realized that was what he was doing.

Yeah while i was always suspect about hogan the most, the others, no idea and don't care enough to look. on reddit someone said that Christy Wright was a swim instructor before she became a business expert. I think Dr Dave Daloney or whatever is a real DR but I don't like listening to him really either

"um yeah i have no debt and am thinking about buying a new car with cash"
"ok but lets talk about you for a second/ is this new car a cry for help? "
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623513
thepostman wrote:I guess I'm reading Jon's words much differently you all. He went out of his way to say having money and spending it on things isn't wrong.
i probably should of avoided even mentioning it initially lol. you guys are talking about boats and vacation homes or an extra meal out....i mentioned the icky feeling of a 15million dollar home while admitting it was likely hypocritical to feel that way.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#623516
LUAlum1215 wrote:I've long followed Dave and subscribed to the FPU plan/method/etc back since his TV show on Fox Business more than a decade ago. I've taught FPU at church and pushed/given the program to those I thought could benefit from it. As far as the practical advice I agree with almost all of it. But in all likelihood I'm done with FPU. I follow a FB group of FPU coordinators to keep tabs on the program and how it changes and issues others are coming across. Since I last taught, the program has been morphed into several different "memberships" now where the only thing that changes much is the name and cost but the benefits stay the same. Every book I've read from Ramsey Solutions seemingly has the same text with a different cover. After a few different runs through the same ringer, I'd pretty much decided to be done with FPU. I'd heard some rumors that Dave was going off the deep end but didn't realize to the extent that was true until reading some of the articles linked in this thread. Instead of continuing to push this company and their product my wife and I have decided to study money, finances, and possessions from a Biblical perspective ourselves and "write" our own study to lead at church. We really believe personal finance is one of the most important but lacking areas of knowledge for a lot of people so if we can help we want to, but not by using FPU any longer.
Great post. its definitely crossed my mind as well. I listened to a sermon that talked about giving and gave statistics and it was pretty disheartening. a year or so later I was approached about advertising FPU to the class we ran. At that time full of newlyweds and people just beginning to start families. I did and to encourage people to do it, we did it too.

They began with everyone writing down their non mortgage debt and what was in savings. and the leader tallied it all up and put it up on the board. I was absolutely awestruck by the number. It was HUGE. and it kind of hit me, no wonder people don't often give like they should. they are mired in so much debt! So i asked the guy if i could lead it in the fall, he was basically like this is the last year for me and I took it over.

We did not do it last year, due to covid. the year prior it was still the workbook. I began looking at the way its done now and i'm kind of in the same boat as you.

Have you ever looked at Crown Financial?
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