A Sea Of Red

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 10:24 am

Class of 20Something wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 9:22 am I think we have to consider these polls don't account for a major variable. In most of these issues the "white Evangelical Republican" is being asked what should taxpayer money be used for. Most of the responses are going to line up with fiscal conservatism. Delegating my own funds to tithes and other organizations is my best mechanism to fulfill those callings of compassion. Legislating how the income of others is allocated for those causes isn't compassion, it's theft. If you don't agree it's theft, don't pay your taxes and find out. The IRS has plenty of well trained and incredibly equiped arresting officers.

Again, I don't lack compassion, I tithe and give in other ways, but legislating compassion is an oxymoron.

I used to think this way, but I’ve seen that relying on “true” compassion is woefully inadequate. God gave us government as a tool, and, especially in a representative democracy, we can decide to put people in place who can allocate our taxes to things that benefit the poor, marginalized, and oppressed.

And something like refugee resettlement requires government cooperation, so advocating for policies that enable refugee resettlement should not be a controversial christian position.

This is such misguided thinking. Even your terms like "poor" "marginalized" and "oppressed" are off base. Nobody in America is marginalized or oppressed, I would argue nobody in America is poor, if you took the poorest american and put them in congo, they would be considered well off.

we’re talking about refugees here, keep up

But, anyways, yeah, homeless in America aren’t poor, we don’t need to help them.

Cost of living in America is a bit different than in Congo so it is an unfair comparison.

There are poor people in this country. Very poor people. Yes, if you plopped them in some 3rd world country they wouldn't be poor but there are people going hungry every day in the United States. A lot of people think the same way you do @Tnobes and therefore don't give time or money to charitable organizations forcing the government to feel like they need to get involved.

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 12:11 am Man, I picked the refugee issue because I thought it would be the least controversial issue for me to suggest that Christians should lean left on. Glad I didn’t pick a controversial topic

Please give scripture that says you need to accept every refugee into your country to be "caring" I'd like to read it.

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:08 am Nobody in America is marginalized or oppressed

That simply isn't true, but it isn't always so clear cut. Anyone who has worked with students knows that there are "marginalized" students. It may be someone who is black. It may be someone who is white. It may be someone who is LBGT. It may be someone who is a Christian / Mormon / Muslim / Jew.

Much of the "White Nationalist" movement comes from "marginalized" whites of lesser educated, lower socio-economic standing. (That doesn't justify their beliefs).

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:08 am I would argue nobody in America is poor, if you took the poorest american and put them in congo, they would be considered well off.

I agree with this to an extent. Nearly every person in the United States (Citizen or not) has access to public education and clean water. There are still some who do not.

thepostman wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:12 am Cost of living in America is a bit different than in Congo so it is an unfair comparison.

There are poor people in this country. Very poor people. Yes, if you plopped them in some 3rd world country they wouldn't be poor but there are people going hungry every day in the United States. A lot of people think the same way you do @Tnobes and therefore don't give time or money to charitable organizations forcing the government to feel like they need to get involved.

It's not an unfair comparison, words have meaning. I'm poor compared to bill gates. The poorer in America have clothes, cellphones and soup kitchens, the poor in other countries eat dirt cakes. People don't give to charity BECAUSE they believe government is charity, government has never gotten involved because anyone dropped the ball on charity, people dropped the ball on charity because of government. Democrats don't give to charity because government is their god, Republicans give to charity because God is their God.

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:14 am

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 12:11 am Man, I picked the refugee issue because I thought it would be the least controversial issue for me to suggest that Christians should lean left on. Glad I didn’t pick a controversial topic

Please give scripture that says you need to accept every refugee into your country to be "caring" I'd like to read it.

Well, obviously I didn’t say every refugee. I’m advocating for accepting more and walking back the slashing of refugee numbers of the past 4 years.

Here’s some of what the Bible has to say on the subject:
https://www.relevantmagazine.com/faith/ ... adline-ie/

alabama24 wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:17 am

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:08 am Nobody in America is marginalized or oppressed

That simply isn't true, but it isn't always so clear cut. Anyone who has worked with students knows that there are "marginalized" students. It may be someone who is black. It may be someone who is white. It may be someone who is LBGT. It may be someone who is a Christian / Mormon / Muslim / Jew.

Much of the "White Nationalist" movement comes from "marginalized" whites of lesser educated, lower socio-economic standing. (That doesn't justify their beliefs).

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:08 am I would argue nobody in America is poor, if you took the poorest american and put them in congo, they would be considered well off.

I agree with this to an extent. Nearly every person in the United States (Citizen or not) has access to public education and clean water. There are still some who do not.

Who's marginalizing them? I do work with students and I have never witnessed a specific person marginalizing anyone. It's like the people who are "bringing awareness" to things by wearing a certain color or growing a mustache in November, it's 2020, everyone is aware of everything. Nobody has been marginalized since the 1960's, it's a tired issue who people who have no meaning in their lives pretend to help because they missed out on civil rights and need to pretend to be "down with the cause"

There is no "white nationalist" movement, it doesn't exist, there are American people who want Christian American values again

Tnobes wrote:

thepostman wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:12 am Cost of living in America is a bit different than in Congo so it is an unfair comparison.

There are poor people in this country. Very poor people. Yes, if you plopped them in some 3rd world country they wouldn't be poor but there are people going hungry every day in the United States. A lot of people think the same way you do @Tnobes and therefore don't give time or money to charitable organizations forcing the government to feel like they need to get involved.

It's not an unfair comparison, words have meaning. I'm poor compared to bill gates. The poorer in America have clothes, cellphones and soup kitchens, the poor in other countries eat dirt cakes. People don't give to charity BECAUSE they believe government is charity, government has never gotten involved because anyone dropped the ball on charity, people dropped the ball on charity because of government. Democrats don't give to charity because government is their god, Republicans give to charity because God is their God.

It is an unfair comparison because it isn't an apples to apples comparison but yes, I'd much rather be poor in a developed country like the United States than in a 3rd world country.

But regardless it kind of solidifies my point about refugees and how we should be much more welcoming to those people than we have been, especially lately. That doesn't mean the government has to run the programs but there is certianly something to be said about helping those being persecuted due to their faith or ethnic group.

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:30 am There is no "white nationalist" movement, it doesn't exist, there are American people who want Christian American values again

Wow, what world are you living in?

I can understand people believing it isn't as widespread as the media depicts, but it is all around us ans hads gained traction in recent years.

Here is a good read on it if you're interested. Provides a lot of data from the justice department hate crime statistics.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-f ... tionalism/

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:25 am

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:14 am

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 12:11 am Man, I picked the refugee issue because I thought it would be the least controversial issue for me to suggest that Christians should lean left on. Glad I didn’t pick a controversial topic

Please give scripture that says you need to accept every refugee into your country to be "caring" I'd like to read it.

Well, obviously I didn’t say every refugee. I’m advocating for accepting more and walking back the slashing of refugee numbers of the past 4 years.

Here’s some of what the Bible has to say on the subject:
https://www.relevantmagazine.com/faith/ ... adline-ie/

Not allowing refugees into your country doesn't necessarily go against any of those, and some of those verses we're not talking about "refugees" but strangers and people who need help, which could be anyone. I liked the reference to scripture but relevant magazine is a leftist magazine meant to apostate people, it's not a Christian publication

Man, you are so obsessed about drawing lines about who is “in” and who is “out.” It seems like anyone who doesn’t ascribe to your strict fundamentalism is some kind of apostate or heretic. This is the worst kind of divisive, schismatic, antagonistic version of Christianity.

thepostman wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:35 am

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:30 am There is no "white nationalist" movement, it doesn't exist, there are American people who want Christian American values again

Wow, what world are you living in?

I can understand people believing it isn't as widespread as the media depicts, but it is all around us is had gained traction in recent years.

Here is a good read on it if you're interested. Provides a lot of data from the justice department hate crime statistics.

https://www.factcheck.org/2019/03/the-f ... tionalism/

Really? Fact check.org? If a fact checker days it's true you can be sure it's false and the defamation league and southern poverty law center are both hate organizations themselves. As far as white supremacists go, more people believe elvis is still alive, Charlottesville proved white supremacy is dead, they held a national rally and got less than 500 people to attend, you'd get more people in your backyard if you said you saw bigfoot

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:43 am Man, you are so obsessed about drawing lines about who is “in” and who is “out.” It seems like anyone who doesn’t ascribe to your strict fundamentalism is some kind of apostate or heretic. This is the worst kind of divisive, schismatic, antagonistic version of Christianity.

I don't draw lines, the Bible does. To be a Christian, it helps to believe what Jesus taught, if you read a publication and it's telling you things that are the opposite of Christianity, it disqualifies itself, I'm not disqualifng it

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:43 am Man, you are so obsessed about drawing lines about who is “in” and who is “out.” It seems like anyone who doesn’t ascribe to your strict fundamentalism is some kind of apostate or heretic. This is the worst kind of divisive, schismatic, antagonistic version of Christianity.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... rsion=NKJV

Tnobes wrote: Really? Fact check.org? If a fact checker days it's true you can be sure it's false and the defamation league and southern poverty law center are both hate organizations themselves. As far as white supremacists go, more people believe elvis is still alive, Charlottesville proved white supremacy is dead, they held a national rally and got less than 500 people to attend, you'd get more people in your backyard if you said you saw bigfoot

Ok, so can you give me a list of acceptable list of sources? They specifically quote justice department statistics that are linked.

Factcheck.org is a non partisan organization that goes out of their way to be fair in their analysis which often brings criticism from those on the left and the right.

Tnobes wrote:
I don't draw lines, the Bible does. To be a Christian, it helps to believe what Jesus taught, if you read a publication and it's telling you things that are the opposite of Christianity, it disqualifies itself, I'm not disqualifng it

As far as refugees go, here is a really good write up from world vision. One of the leading Christian organizations on this topic. They have also included a ton of scripture.

https://www.worldvision.org/refugees-ne ... t-refugees

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:44 am Charlottesville proved white supremacy is dead, they held a national rally and got less than 500 people to attend

Which is it? There isn't a "White Nationalist" movement OR "less than 500 people" showed up? If there wasn't a "white nationalist" movement, there wouldn't have been a rally.

For what its worth: There can be "good people" who wanted the statues to remain and not be "white nationalists." That isn't the point.

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 10:55 am

Purple Haize wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 10:41 am Once you force someone to do something it is no longer Compassion or Biblical.

It may not be “true” compassion from everyone, but let’s not get carried away. When God is setting up his government for Israel in Leviticus/Deuteronomy, there’s plenty that the Israelites were required(you could use the word forced) to do, so “Biblical” is a weird word to throw around here.

So are you saying that if I vote for someone based on their promise to use government funds to help the poor, that’s not compassion?

We are , fortunately, not a nation set up like ancient Israel.

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 10:24 am

Class of 20Something wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 9:22 am I think we have to consider these polls don't account for a major variable. In most of these issues the "white Evangelical Republican" is being asked what should taxpayer money be used for. Most of the responses are going to line up with fiscal conservatism. Delegating my own funds to tithes and other organizations is my best mechanism to fulfill those callings of compassion. Legislating how the income of others is allocated for those causes isn't compassion, it's theft. If you don't agree it's theft, don't pay your taxes and find out. The IRS has plenty of well trained and incredibly equiped arresting officers.

Again, I don't lack compassion, I tithe and give in other ways, but legislating compassion is an oxymoron.

I used to think this way, but I’ve seen that relying on “true” compassion is woefully inadequate. God gave us government as a tool, and, especially in a representative democracy, we can decide to put people in place who can allocate our taxes to things that benefit the poor, marginalized, and oppressed.

And something like refugee resettlement requires government cooperation, so advocating for policies that enable refugee resettlement should not be a controversial christian position.

Relying on true compassion is lacking. I totally agree. But compensating with the government isn't the answer. It rarely ever is.

thepostman wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:55 am

Tnobes wrote: Really? Fact check.org? If a fact checker days it's true you can be sure it's false and the defamation league and southern poverty law center are both hate organizations themselves. As far as white supremacists go, more people believe elvis is still alive, Charlottesville proved white supremacy is dead, they held a national rally and got less than 500 people to attend, you'd get more people in your backyard if you said you saw bigfoot

Ok, so can you give me a list of acceptable list of sources? They specifically quote justice department statistics that are linked.

Factcheck.org is a non partisan organization that goes out of their way to be fair in their analysis which often brings criticism from those on the left and the right.

Tnobes wrote:
I don't draw lines, the Bible does. To be a Christian, it helps to believe what Jesus taught, if you read a publication and it's telling you things that are the opposite of Christianity, it disqualifies itself, I'm not disqualifng it

As far as refugees go, here is a really good write up from world vision. One of the leading Christian organizations on this topic. They have also included a ton of scripture.

https://www.worldvision.org/refugees-ne ... t-refugees

Did you just say fact-check .org is “non partisan “? Ok.....

alabama24 wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:59 am

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:44 am Charlottesville proved white supremacy is dead, they held a national rally and got less than 500 people to attend

Which is it? There isn't a "White Nationalist" movement OR "less than 500 people" showed up? If there wasn't a "white nationalist" movement, there wouldn't have been a rally.

Less than 500 people means there is no movement, you realize that there are hundreds of million of people in the united states. 500 people means it doesn't exist

thepostman wrote: ↑December 22nd, 2020, 11:55 am

Tnobes wrote: Really? Fact check.org? If a fact checker days it's true you can be sure it's false and the defamation league and southern poverty law center are both hate organizations themselves. As far as white supremacists go, more people believe elvis is still alive, Charlottesville proved white supremacy is dead, they held a national rally and got less than 500 people to attend, you'd get more people in your backyard if you said you saw bigfoot

Ok, so can you give me a list of acceptable list of sources? They specifically quote justice department statistics that are linked.

Factcheck.org is a non partisan organization that goes out of their way to be fair in their analysis which often brings criticism from those on the left and the right.

Tnobes wrote:
I don't draw lines, the Bible does. To be a Christian, it helps to believe what Jesus taught, if you read a publication and it's telling you things that are the opposite of Christianity, it disqualifies itself, I'm not disqualifng it

As far as refugees go, here is a really good write up from world vision. One of the leading Christian organizations on this topic. They have also included a ton of scripture.

https://www.worldvision.org/refugees-ne ... t-refugees

Here's how more Christians should help refugees