A Sea Of Red

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 1:28 am

paradox wrote: ↑December 18th, 2020, 10:43 am The Apostle tells Timothy that God does not give us the spirit of timidity, cowardice, fear. The literary imagery is one who flees battle.

Turning the other cheek is not about weakness, but strength. The strength that comes from God to overcome flawed passions like human revenge.

Different people have different callings. Some lean left, some lean right. Stay true to your calling and make the most of what God puts in your path. Be courageous, and avoid excess.

Nothing about Christianity leans left

I’ll take things a Christian Nationalist might say for $100, Alex.

If your version of Christianity lines up completely with one political party, you have made the political party your priority instead of the gospel.

I’ll give you a current example where the left clearly has the more “Christian” view: refugee resettlement

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 8:45 am

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 1:28 am

paradox wrote: ↑December 18th, 2020, 10:43 am The Apostle tells Timothy that God does not give us the spirit of timidity, cowardice, fear. The literary imagery is one who flees battle.

Turning the other cheek is not about weakness, but strength. The strength that comes from God to overcome flawed passions like human revenge.

Different people have different callings. Some lean left, some lean right. Stay true to your calling and make the most of what God puts in your path. Be courageous, and avoid excess.

Nothing about Christianity leans left

I’ll take things a Christian Nationalist might say for $100, Alex.

If your version of Christianity lines up completely with one political party, you have made the political party your priority instead of the gospel.

I’ll give you a current example where the left clearly has the more “Christian” view: refugee resettlement

^ Christian socialist.

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 8:45 am

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 1:28 am

paradox wrote: ↑December 18th, 2020, 10:43 am The Apostle tells Timothy that God does not give us the spirit of timidity, cowardice, fear. The literary imagery is one who flees battle.

Turning the other cheek is not about weakness, but strength. The strength that comes from God to overcome flawed passions like human revenge.

Different people have different callings. Some lean left, some lean right. Stay true to your calling and make the most of what God puts in your path. Be courageous, and avoid excess.

Nothing about Christianity leans left

I’ll take things a Christian Nationalist might say for $100, Alex.

If your version of Christianity lines up completely with one political party, you have made the political party your priority instead of the gospel.

I’ll give you a current example where the left clearly has the more “Christian” view: refugee resettlement

No they do not. But nice talking point. I don’t think the Right does either, but I never made the claim it does

@gerb , how is caring for refugees socialism?

@Purple Haize , caring for refugees is more Christian than not caring for them. I’m not saying the left’s policy on the matter is *explicitly* Christian, but it’s definitely closer than the right. Caring for the foreigner and the oppressed is everywhere in scripture. We’ve seen a 90% reduction in acceptance of persecuted Christian refugees in the past 4 years as well as a giant reduction in acceptance of refugees overall, despite zero evidence that refugees pose any kind of danger to citizens (the facts are the opposite- resettled refugees are the most vetted people in the country). Biden has already set a goal of getting that number back up, that is a goal which plainly aligns with our Christian mandate to care for the foreigner and the oppressed.

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:04 pm @gerb , how is caring for refugees socialism?

@Purple Haize , caring for refugees is more Christian than not caring for them. I’m not saying the left’s policy on the matter is *explicitly* Christian, but it’s definitely closer than the right. Caring for the foreigner and the oppressed is everywhere in scripture. We’ve seen a 90% reduction in acceptance of persecuted Christian refugees in the past 4 years as well as a giant reduction in acceptance of refugees overall, despite zero evidence that refugees pose any kind of danger to citizens (the facts are the opposite- resettled refugees are the most vetted people in the country). Biden has already set a goal of getting that number back up, that is a goal which plainly aligns with our Christian mandate to care for the foreigner and the oppressed.

You operate under the assumption that the Right doesn’t want to care for the foreigner or the oppressed. Or that if they don’t “care” the way you think they should it isn’t Biblical.
I’m also gonna have to see your sources for those numbers

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:04 pm @gerb , how is caring for refugees socialism?

@Purple Haize , caring for refugees is more Christian than not caring for them. I’m not saying the left’s policy on the matter is *explicitly* Christian, but it’s definitely closer than the right. Caring for the foreigner and the oppressed is everywhere in scripture. We’ve seen a 90% reduction in acceptance of persecuted Christian refugees in the past 4 years as well as a giant reduction in acceptance of refugees overall, despite zero evidence that refugees pose any kind of danger to citizens (the facts are the opposite- resettled refugees are the most vetted people in the country). Biden has already set a goal of getting that number back up, that is a goal which plainly aligns with our Christian mandate to care for the foreigner and the oppressed.

Not sure the "Germany experiment" in this would necessarily agree. Refugees by name are not always "refugees" in reality.

There are exceptions to every rule, but in general, the left is interested in acquiring voters, not aiding "refugees".

That’s a pretty cynical take. I think most people genuinely do things because they think they are right and the exceptions are those who are trying to take advantage.

@Purple Haize , here’s your data:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-release ... 91549.html

Here’s some data about refugees and crime: https://research.newamericaneconomy.org ... ime-rates/

Of 3 million refugees admitted to the US since 1980, not one has killed an American in a terror attack
https://worldreliefseattle.org/informat ... gee-crisis

Purple Haize wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:43 pm

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:04 pm @gerb , how is caring for refugees socialism?

@Purple Haize , caring for refugees is more Christian than not caring for them. I’m not saying the left’s policy on the matter is *explicitly* Christian, but it’s definitely closer than the right. Caring for the foreigner and the oppressed is everywhere in scripture. We’ve seen a 90% reduction in acceptance of persecuted Christian refugees in the past 4 years as well as a giant reduction in acceptance of refugees overall, despite zero evidence that refugees pose any kind of danger to citizens (the facts are the opposite- resettled refugees are the most vetted people in the country). Biden has already set a goal of getting that number back up, that is a goal which plainly aligns with our Christian mandate to care for the foreigner and the oppressed.

You operate under the assumption that the Right doesn’t want to care for the foreigner or the oppressed. Or that if they don’t “care” the way you think they should it isn’t Biblical.
I’m also gonna have to see your sources for those numbers

I generally don't get too involved with the back and forth here or on the Trump thread because most people are set in their mind and are not going to change it regardless. I'm answering this only because I read a very interesting article yesterday which is directly relevant to this topic.



It also included this:

"And if you think these attitudes are merely ancillary to American Evangelicals—side issues that shouldn’t distract from the main issue, abortion—then think again. In an August post, Burge found that “white evangelical Republican support for Donald Trump is based more on immigration policy than his view of abortion.” Both abortion and immigration mattered to Evangelicals. Immigration mattered more".

The article is written by David French, a conservative Evangelical but one who is very concerned what Trumpism and American Nationalism is doing to the country. The study cited is from UVA. I put this at the bottom hoping some read it without letting this completely bias your view.


https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/w ... ey-hate-us

Ryan Burge has been doing some good work in gathering and compiling data in the evangelical sphere. Some scary statistics, but good work.

We understand that people are presenting these things as fact and write articles that they feel are backed by data. However, you have to ask yourself the question, how many Christians have you ever encountered who valued anti-immigration over right to life?

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 3:56 pm We understand that people are presenting these things as fact and write articles that they feel are backed by data. However, you have to ask yourself the question, how many Christians have you ever encountered who valued anti-immigration over right to life?

What do you mean "feel" like it's backed up by data? And yes, I have heard many people who are hell-bent on immigration. (I'm from CA). Ann Coulter said she didn't care if they were doing abortions in the White House as long as they built the wall. What was Trump's biggest issue in 2016? The Wall!

Easy now. There's plenty of kool-aid still available.

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:16 pm Easy now. There's plenty of kool-aid still available.

LOL. I fail to see an answer to my response. I was careful only to post facts.

Liberty itself is a major evangelical hub. How many posters here would value anti-immigration over right to life? Do a poll.

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:20 pm Liberty itself is a major evangelical hub. How many posters here would value anti-immigration over right to life? Do a poll.

There was a poll. The questions are available on line if you would like to read them.

Why would they weight this one issue to lie about? It's one result of many this unaffiliated writer chose to write about. This is some of the craziness that the he talks about in the article. Yes, Christians ARE persecuted by liberals and the world around us but not everything that is negative about us is a lie. But we act as if we have all the wisdom of God on our side and think everyone else is empirically wrong when sometimes what we have is only an opinion. Just like this.

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:04 pm @gerb , how is caring for refugees socialism?

@Purple Haize , caring for refugees is more Christian than not caring for them. I’m not saying the left’s policy on the matter is *explicitly* Christian, but it’s definitely closer than the right. Caring for the foreigner and the oppressed is everywhere in scripture. We’ve seen a 90% reduction in acceptance of persecuted Christian refugees in the past 4 years as well as a giant reduction in acceptance of refugees overall, despite zero evidence that refugees pose any kind of danger to citizens (the facts are the opposite- resettled refugees are the most vetted people in the country). Biden has already set a goal of getting that number back up, that is a goal which plainly aligns with our Christian mandate to care for the foreigner and the oppressed.

Caring for the refugee doesn't need to mean taking them into your country, please show me a verse that says you need to take refugees into your country through the government?

Just John wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 3:32 pm

Purple Haize wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:43 pm

stokesjokes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:04 pm @gerb , how is caring for refugees socialism?

@Purple Haize , caring for refugees is more Christian than not caring for them. I’m not saying the left’s policy on the matter is *explicitly* Christian, but it’s definitely closer than the right. Caring for the foreigner and the oppressed is everywhere in scripture. We’ve seen a 90% reduction in acceptance of persecuted Christian refugees in the past 4 years as well as a giant reduction in acceptance of refugees overall, despite zero evidence that refugees pose any kind of danger to citizens (the facts are the opposite- resettled refugees are the most vetted people in the country). Biden has already set a goal of getting that number back up, that is a goal which plainly aligns with our Christian mandate to care for the foreigner and the oppressed.

You operate under the assumption that the Right doesn’t want to care for the foreigner or the oppressed. Or that if they don’t “care” the way you think they should it isn’t Biblical.
I’m also gonna have to see your sources for those numbers

I generally don't get too involved with the back and forth here or on the Trump thread because most people are set in their mind and are not going to change it regardless. I'm answering this only because I read a very interesting article yesterday which is directly relevant to this topic.



It also included this:

"And if you think these attitudes are merely ancillary to American Evangelicals—side issues that shouldn’t distract from the main issue, abortion—then think again. In an August post, Burge found that “white evangelical Republican support for Donald Trump is based more on immigration policy than his view of abortion.” Both abortion and immigration mattered to Evangelicals. Immigration mattered more".

The article is written by David French, a conservative Evangelical but one who is very concerned what Trumpism and American Nationalism is doing to the country. The study cited is from UVA. I put this at the bottom hoping some read it without letting this completely bias your view.


https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/w ... ey-hate-us

David French is neither Evangelical nor Christian nor is he Republican

No need to question the guy's faith. He aligned with Jonah Goldberg. They're part of the old Never Trump crew from National Review. They're both good guys. We just happen to see some things differently. That's all.

Just John wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:32 pm

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:20 pm Liberty itself is a major evangelical hub. How many posters here would value anti-immigration over right to life? Do a poll.

There was a poll. The questions are available on line if you would like to read them.

Why would they weight this one issue to lie about? It's one result of many this unaffiliated writer chose to write about. This is some of the craziness that the he talks about in the article. Yes, Christians ARE persecuted by liberals and the world around us but not everything that is negative about us is a lie. But we act as if we have all the wisdom of God on our side and think everyone else is empirically wrong when sometimes what we have is only an opinion. Just like this.

What I'm saying is: poll this forum. Then poll Liberty. Poll your church. Good luck finding numbers that come anywhere near to what they're claiming.

Again, how may Christians have you encountered personally, who actually claim that anti-immigration should be valued over right to life?

Tnobes wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:55 pm

Just John wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 3:32 pm

Purple Haize wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 12:43 pm

You operate under the assumption that the Right doesn’t want to care for the foreigner or the oppressed. Or that if they don’t “care” the way you think they should it isn’t Biblical.
I’m also gonna have to see your sources for those numbers

I generally don't get too involved with the back and forth here or on the Trump thread because most people are set in their mind and are not going to change it regardless. I'm answering this only because I read a very interesting article yesterday which is directly relevant to this topic.



It also included this:

"And if you think these attitudes are merely ancillary to American Evangelicals—side issues that shouldn’t distract from the main issue, abortion—then think again. In an August post, Burge found that “white evangelical Republican support for Donald Trump is based more on immigration policy than his view of abortion.” Both abortion and immigration mattered to Evangelicals. Immigration mattered more".

The article is written by David French, a conservative Evangelical but one who is very concerned what Trumpism and American Nationalism is doing to the country. The study cited is from UVA. I put this at the bottom hoping some read it without letting this completely bias your view.


https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/w ... ey-hate-us

David French is neither Evangelical nor Christian nor is he Republican

Not only are you wrong on all accounts, you are a crackpot.

Unlike some never Trumpers, he was not in favor of "burning down the party" and not voting for other Republicans.

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 5:13 pm

Just John wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:32 pm

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 4:20 pm Liberty itself is a major evangelical hub. How many posters here would value anti-immigration over right to life? Do a poll.

There was a poll. The questions are available on line if you would like to read them.

Why would they weight this one issue to lie about? It's one result of many this unaffiliated writer chose to write about. This is some of the craziness that the he talks about in the article. Yes, Christians ARE persecuted by liberals and the world around us but not everything that is negative about us is a lie. But we act as if we have all the wisdom of God on our side and think everyone else is empirically wrong when sometimes what we have is only an opinion. Just like this.

What I'm saying is: poll this forum. Then poll Liberty. Poll your church. Good luck finding numbers that come anywhere near to what they're claiming.

Again, how may Christians have you encountered personally, who actually claim that anti-immigration should be valued over right to life?

Asked straight up, I think the numbers would be closer, (and it's more politically correct, even in conservative Evangelical circles to say "life" than "immigration" as the latter MIGHT connote racism or xenophobic intentions) but asking what their biggest concerns are however show a different picture:

The issues White Evangelicals are most concerned about by age:




Trump support based on view of abortion. This would indicate that whether a White Evangelical is pro-life or pro-choice there was not much difference between the two in their support for Trump. They are near or above 80% level of support.



Support for Trump based on immigration policy. This would indicate that the more hard line you are on immigration (legal and illegal), the more you support Trump. Ergo, there is no cost on an abortion stand but if you are not as strong on immigration policy it will hurt you.




From the study:

"But, does this all hold up in a statistical model? I interacted the question about abortion as a choice with the question about ending the visa lottery/family based migration. I also included controls for gender, church attendance, age, education, and income. Again, the sample is just white evangelical Republicans. Which one drags down support for Trump more: those who oppose his views of abortion or immigration? I have labeled the points, as these can become confusing oftentimes."

Of course "pro-life" and "ending the visa lottery" is the highest pairing. But "pro-choice" and "ending the visa lottery" ranks higher than "pro-life" and "keeping the visa lottery"

Nice colorful charts and graphs. However, I've seen even nicer presentations that turned out to be deeply flawed once you evaluate the all the variables, view how the data was collected, and investigate relevant particulars and how they were defined.

Data coming from academics, politicians, and journalists sometimes needs to be approached with a healthy dose of suspicion because their presentations have a tendency to coincidentally to confirm their positions. Some tend to have agendas as well.

paradox wrote: ↑December 21st, 2020, 7:39 pm Nice colorful charts and graphs. However, I've seen even nicer presentations that turned out to be deeply flawed once you evaluate the all the variables, view how the data was collected, and investigate relevant particulars and how they were defined.

Data coming from academics, politicians, and journalists sometimes needs to be approached with a healthy dose of suspicion because their presentations just so happen to confirm their positions. Some tend to have agendas as well.

You don't trust academia who receives grants/loans from government(which make them comply to specific agendas and theoretical research), politicians and journals that receive money from or bought out by corporations/billionaires? You must be a (insert scapegoat term or group here)

The scapegoated shameful term would be "white evangelical."