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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#611531
1. What do you do with Special Needs kids? Either those with physical or mental challenges? If a kid had behavioral issues at one school and enrolls at another can that kid be expelled for those same issues? What about the kid who is a little slower than the rest of the class? Are you going to hold up the advancement of the class for them or leave them behind to repeat? You lose that kid, you lose that money
2. Posty hits the nail squarely on the head. It means nothing without parental involvement. A lot of the “achievement gap” can be traced in a direct line to parents who don’t care. Unless you try to fail or move their kid to alternative Ed. Than they care and it’s all the teachers fault.
3. Who are you going to get to teach at these “lower performing” schools? First year teachers? Everyone there is going to be looking to get out. They are going to be taking it as the only job they can find. Not exactly cream of the crop material
4- yes we HAVE been pouring money into lower performing school districts. That doesn’t mean the money makes it there though. It gets sucked up by “Studies” and “Tasks Forces” and another layer of Administration. It certainly isn’t going to new books, teachers salaries, physical plant upgrades etc. No no. That must be “studied” by a “think tank” and then looked over by umpteen newly formed committees.
Jonathan Carone liked this
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#611532
As has been said repeatedly, there are many many issues to this problem, but choice itself is not a problem here.
The most difficult issue to solve is the public schools themselves. Solve that one and you deserve a Nobel prize, seriously.

Parents who send their kids to private schools, generally, just want to keep more of their money to be able to afford it. The problem is, tax breaks only help those parents, it doesn't necessarily help the poorer families who don't pay taxes.

Believe it or not, private schools want to be open to more diverse families, both ethnically and financially, but they operate on a very limited (and tight) budget. They need paying families in order to be able to offer financial aid to families who can't afford it. There are lots of opportunities, but the government makes it SO hard for these private schools to operate how they wish. Why is it so hard to find any scholarships, grants, or financial aid for primary and secondary schools? I'm not even talking about federal or state-funded, but private aid. The government needs to make these things easier to exist (basically de-regulate and get out of the way).

Virginia in recent years has allowed private schools to create scholarship funds, funded privately, with donations being tax-deductible. We can do more things like this to create more opportunities.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#611534
Purple Haize wrote: October 7th, 2020, 1:58 pm What do you do with Special Needs kids? Either those with physical or mental challenges? If a kid had behavioral issues at one school and enrolls at another can that kid be expelled for those same issues? What about the kid who is a little slower than the rest of the class? Are you going to hold up the advancement of the class for them or leave them behind to repeat? You lose that kid, you lose that money
Specialization is where public schools do their best work IMHO. Behavorially challenged kids tend to bounce from one school to the next until many drop out. Horrible cycle.

Who are you going to get to teach at these “lower performing” schools? First year teachers? Everyone there is going to be looking to get out. They are going to be taking it as the only job they can find. Not exactly cream of the crop material
Welcome to the current state. Most of the teachers that I am around at these challenged schools are either very young or holding on until retirement. There are a few who came up through these same schools and are trying to make a difference.
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By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#611547
Parent involvement has been brought up several times as the main problem. Anything we can do to strengthen the "nuclear family" unit might be a good start then. Throwing open our borders to hordes of low wage labor doesn't move us any closer to a $15 per hour national living wage, especially in urban districts. Equality, respect and a strong family starts with a good job and a decent wage.
By ballcoach15
Registration Days Posts
#611554
Our older teachers are retiring and being replaced by youngsters who were taught by liberal teachers. Problem started probably in early 90s. Adding to the problem was many "liberals" got promoted to administrative positions, when they had very little leadership ability.
Another problem is many kids grow up in a home without a father. When they go to school, many of their teachers and principals are female, thus there's no positive male figure in their life. (athletes have their coach, but non-athletes do not)


One of the best cases of poor leadership in public schools happened a few years ago, in a nearby county. The principal's job came open at one of the high schools. There were 2 finalists for the job. One was a former boy's basketball coach who was respected by everyone in the county. The other finalist was a female who worked in the central office, that hardly anyone knew. Guess who got the job ?
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By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#611558
Ballcoach academia went way left in the 70' and 80's. Those that wanted to avoid the Vietnam draft went to college and stayed there until the war was over. They protested, smoked dope and worked on their doctorates and PhD's. The rest either went to Nam or went to work. In the 70 and 80's these draft dodgers took over leadership positions. :lol:
By ALUmnus
Registration Days Posts
#611559
stokesjokes wrote: October 8th, 2020, 7:17 am Here’s a provocative article by conservative commentator David Brooks suggesting that maybe the “nuclear family” is the problem. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/a ... ke/605536/
Careful calling David Brooks a conservative, he is comparatively to his peers, maybe. Not to say he's a bad commentator, but he's quite often very wrong. This is one of those cases.

Here are a couple rebuttals from Brad Wilcox at UVA, who studies the family and marriage:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#611560
ALUmnus wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:42 am Here are a couple rebuttals from Brad Wilcox at UVA, who studies the family and marriage:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/
While a majority of college-educated men and women between 18 and 55 are married, that’s no longer true for the poor (only 26 percent are married) and the working class (39 percent).
That's fascinating.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#611562
David Brooks conservative?
What school and Principal position are we talking about?
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#611566
You guys must define conservative pretty narrowly. He’s always been known as a conservative, even if he is moderately conservative. I think what you mean is “not conservative enough for me.”
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#611570
Jonathan Carone wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:49 am
ALUmnus wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:42 am Here are a couple rebuttals from Brad Wilcox at UVA, who studies the family and marriage:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/
While a majority of college-educated men and women between 18 and 55 are married, that’s no longer true for the poor (only 26 percent are married) and the working class (39 percent).
That's fascinating.
I think it makes sense when you consider that so many things associated with marriage come with cost. From engagement rings to ceremonies, to honeymoons, etc. Not to mention theres potential status changes. I’ve worked with clients who don’t marry their fiancés because they would lose their Medicaid or a portion of their disability income/SSI.
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#611571
It also comes down to finance management. A large number of divorces stem from financial issues within the marriage. College educated couples likely have better paying jobs and a better handle on managing their finances than the other two categories. I’d never thought about it a ton before reading that article.
stokesjokes liked this
By JK37
Registration Days Posts
#611625
stokesjokes wrote: October 8th, 2020, 1:09 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:49 am
ALUmnus wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:42 am Here are a couple rebuttals from Brad Wilcox at UVA, who studies the family and marriage:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/
While a majority of college-educated men and women between 18 and 55 are married, that’s no longer true for the poor (only 26 percent are married) and the working class (39 percent).
That's fascinating.
I think it makes sense when you consider that so many things associated with marriage come with cost. From engagement rings to ceremonies, to honeymoons, etc. Not to mention theres potential status changes. I’ve worked with clients who don’t marry their fiancés because they would lose their Medicaid or a portion of their disability income/SSI.
There are two kinds of pain: the pain of progress and the pain of regret. The overwhelming majority of people would rather strain to make what they already have work for them, than strain to gain what they’ve never had before. But you gotta risk it for the biscuit!
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#611639
Purple Haize wrote:1. What do you do with Special Needs kids? Either those with physical or mental challenges? If a kid had behavioral issues at one school and enrolls at another can that kid be expelled for those same issues? What about the kid who is a little slower than the rest of the class? Are you going to hold up the advancement of the class for them or leave them behind to repeat? You lose that kid, you lose that money
2. Posty hits the nail squarely on the head. It means nothing without parental involvement. A lot of the “achievement gap” can be traced in a direct line to parents who don’t care. Unless you try to fail or move their kid to alternative Ed. Than they care and it’s all the teachers fault.
3. Who are you going to get to teach at these “lower performing” schools? First year teachers? Everyone there is going to be looking to get out. They are going to be taking it as the only job they can find. Not exactly cream of the crop material
4- yes we HAVE been pouring money into lower performing school districts. That doesn’t mean the money makes it there though. It gets sucked up by “Studies” and “Tasks Forces” and another layer of Administration. It certainly isn’t going to new books, teachers salaries, physical plant upgrades etc. No no. That must be “studied” by a “think tank” and then looked over by umpteen newly formed committees.
Special needs kids have been getting shoved to specialized for profit and non profit organizations who are training to handle it over the last good handful of years. We work with a number of these companies. some are nationwide, some are more regional (Camelot, Menta Group) I think this is the way. Otherwise, it needs to be handled by regional offices (it is already in some states). Its certainly not perfect, and separation of our special needs students from the "normal" student population probably has negative side effects, but Special needs kids suffer educationally in many districts today.

You can poor money into these districts through pay structure. I know a few teachers who's schools became schools in impoverished areas over time. The moment they could retire they retired. But I know one of them was of stayed for more money. I know we all likely would consider staying in an unfavorable situation if it was made worth our while.
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#611641
stokesjokes wrote:
Jonathan Carone wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:49 am
ALUmnus wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:42 am Here are a couple rebuttals from Brad Wilcox at UVA, who studies the family and marriage:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... le/606841/
While a majority of college-educated men and women between 18 and 55 are married, that’s no longer true for the poor (only 26 percent are married) and the working class (39 percent).
That's fascinating.
I think it makes sense when you consider that so many things associated with marriage come with cost. From engagement rings to ceremonies, to honeymoons, etc. Not to mention theres potential status changes. I’ve worked with clients who don’t marry their fiancés because they would lose their Medicaid or a portion of their disability income/SSI.
There are a ton of factors at play. But I contend marriage statistics today are directly correlated to the popularity of divorce in the 80's and 90's. In poor and working class families, divorce decimated these structures. In middle class households they made a mark but nothing like they did in the lower classes.

People are stupid often but they aren't here. they remember growing up in these households. the #1 cause of divorce is money issues and so many of them don't feel like they can get married until they have stability to do so. Its why they have children later too. they don't want to put their kids through what they went through.

As it relates to school choice, I believe we are talking about parents who fail to see the value in their children being educated. I think some people especially those who are in lower classes see their education at not really having much of an impact on their lives or they are so defiant against any authority, they stick it to the man at the cost of their children (we are foster parents this is a real thing)
Purple Haize liked this
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#611649
RubberMallet wrote: October 9th, 2020, 10:58 am
stokesjokes wrote:
Jonathan Carone wrote: October 8th, 2020, 10:49 am




That's fascinating.
I think it makes sense when you consider that so many things associated with marriage come with cost. From engagement rings to ceremonies, to honeymoons, etc. Not to mention theres potential status changes. I’ve worked with clients who don’t marry their fiancés because they would lose their Medicaid or a portion of their disability income/SSI.
There are a ton of factors at play. But I contend marriage statistics today are directly correlated to the popularity of divorce in the 80's and 90's. In poor and working class families, divorce decimated these structures. In middle class households they made a mark but nothing like they did in the lower classes.

People are stupid often but they aren't here. they remember growing up in these households. the #1 cause of divorce is money issues and so many of them don't feel like they can get married until they have stability to do so. Its why they have children later too. they don't want to put their kids through what they went through.

As it relates to school choice, I believe we are talking about parents who fail to see the value in their children being educated. I think some people especially those who are in lower classes see their education at not really having much of an impact on their lives or they are so defiant against any authority, they stick it to the man at the cost of their children (we are foster parents this is a real thing)
I think a lot of this is correct, and you're right its a ton of factors together. Interestingly, those having children later are actually the more educated parents, not lower-class households.

For school choice, beyond valuing the education, those who are in lower classes are much less likely to know how to navigate the educational world and access the opportunities available to their children. There are nonprofits now who are working with gifted children from low income backgrounds access scholarships and locate college opportunities that they wouldn't otherwise have sought, simply from not knowing how to navigate the system.
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By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#611651
We do those types of things through our non-profit. We get kids scholarships and give them laptops and printers. And even after doing all of that for them, only a few actually register for a class. It is maddening. We are now working with admissions counselors at local colleges to help the kids we get scholarships actually enroll.

:banghead
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By RubberMallet
Registration Days Posts
#611662
we work with a company that provides laptops/chromebooks with verizon hotspots. The student pays nthing for the devices, they are subsidized by the districts. only about 30% of the hotspots are actually utilized. Many schools also routinely find their devices in pawn shops or on craigslist.
By lynchburgwildcats
Registration Days Posts
#611976
I wouldn’t mind the whole opening up tax money to private schools thing as much if the people in charge trying to make it happen ever devised a concrete plan to how they would help improve the schools the poorest people attend. Seems like all they ever want to do is fund these private schools at the expense of the students who will likely never benefit from it, which creates a whole host of other long-term problems.
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By alabama24
Registration Days Posts
#611981
lynchburgwildcats wrote: October 14th, 2020, 9:41 am improve the schools the poorest people attend.
There aren't easy answers for some of those schools.

Those schools are not isolated to Urban areas... there are many in poor rural areas. In both cases, the students attending often don't have much help at home.

I am fully in favor of spending what is needed. I am also fully supportive of accountability. Both are political liabilities to one party or the other.
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