[Jonathan Carone]

Posty mentioned this in another thread and it’s one of the things that will define the Republican Party post Trump. You’re seeing more and more conservatives push for it.

Here’s where I’m in agreement on school choice:

1) Open districts - if there’s an open seat at a school, I’m for a student from another district being able to fill it and their school funding traveling with them.

2) Public charter schools - I’m good with creating new charter schools that are publicly funded.

Where the Republican platform loses me is in the insistence that families should get tax money in the form of scholarships to private schools or to fund home schooling.

Why am I wrong? Why should tax money go to fund private or home school?

[Sly Fox]

Interesting topic. Here in Texas the homeschool community has fought tooth and nail against vouchers which the collective groups suggest would be used to regulate them more than they do their own public school kids (ditto for Tebow Bill). The homeschool community essentially states that the vouchers would be the public school system essentially buying its way into controlling the home. Not sure I fully buy into that line of thinking. But Texans are VERY independent.

What is this "tax money in the form of scholarships" you are referencing? I know it is semantics but that appears to be a misrepresentation on what is being proposed.

Keep in mind that in many areas, public education is simply awful. Whether you want to place that burden on being underfunded or simply lacking any hope for the future it really doesn't matter. It just is. I work with a Christian non-profit in some of the most dangerous communities in America serving some of these schools and see it firsthand. Some suggest it is what creates the socioeconomic divide that limits opportunities for minorities. Giving parents an opportunity to divert their own tax money toward a better local option for their particular circumstances makes sense to me.

[thepostman]

I have a lot to say on this but not a ton of time to say it so I will sum up where I stand today on school choice.

I use to be extremely pro school choice until I worked with an organization that worked with struggling schools in DC. Most of these kids don't have parental involvement and couldn't care any less where their kids go to school. So the kids who profit are the kids with active parents. The bad schools will only get worse which will make it even harder for these disadvantaged kids.

This is a complicated issue and I think far too often people try to simplify it. There are so many caveats to think about and consider.

I look forward to reading other views on this. I hadn't even considered the homeschooling aspect vs more state regulation.

[TH Spangler]

Where the Republican platform loses me is in the insistence that families should get tax money in the form of scholarships to private schools or to fund home schooling.

Why am I wrong? Why should tax money go to fund private or home school?

I think parents should receive a voucher or scholarship money to be used for public or private. I believe home schoolers should receive money, but less for two reasons. 1 Theres no brick and mortar cost and 2 to discourage people from opting in only for the money and not doing the job.

[Jonathan Carone]

What is this "tax money in the form of scholarships" you are referencing? I know it is semantics but that appears to be a misrepresentation on what is being proposed.

If the bill were to take effect, 10 percent of federal coronavirus-relief funding authorized by the CARES (Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security) Act would be redirected to state block grants, which states could then use to fund scholarship organizations. Such programs offer families direct educational assistance, enabling them to cover the costs of private-school tuition or other expenses such as tutoring or homeschooling.

Source

Giving parents an opportunity to divert their own tax money toward a better local option for their particular circumstances makes sense to me.

Like I mentioned above, I'm all for this in the context of public school. The disparity in what schools offer within their own counties is incredible. If the Smiths can only afford to live in School Zone A, I see no problem allowing their kid to go to School Zone B as long as there is room within the school. My issue comes in the private/home school funding.

[willflop]

It is the right and duty of parents to oversee the education of their children. Taxing parents for education expenses, while also not allowing them to have a say in how that education will look, hamstrings them into one option. It’s a statist move and detracts from freedom and parental rights.

[TH Spangler]

JC, parents Resistance to public schools has as much to do with the social agenda their curriculum is pushing as it does with test scores. Change the agenda and public schools wouldn't be worried about this. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

[stokesjokes]

Some suggest it is what creates the socioeconomic divide that limits opportunities for minorities. Giving parents an opportunity to divert their own tax money toward a better local option for their particular circumstances makes sense to me.

This is right on. I’ve read that the achievement gap between black and white students was at its lowest at the height of bussing. Once bussing stopped, the gap began to widen again.

There was an interesting podcast series from one of the “This American Life” producers recently called “Nice White Parents” that took a pretty in-depth look at some of the history behind these public school/school choice issues.

[Jonathan Carone]

I’ve read that the achievement gap between black and white students was at its lowest at the height of bussing. Once bussing stopped, the gap began to widen again.

When funding is based on zip codes, it makes perfect sense why the wealthier suburbs would get better schooling than the lower income areas. If we want to level the playing field, we have to make the public school options better for those lower income students.

[stokesjokes]

One of the interesting things from that podcast series was they tracked down a bunch of white parents who said the same thing back in the day and wanted to push for more integrated schools to help level the playing field, but almost none of them sent their own kids to the “black” schools in their district.

We are perpetually caught between valuing the best possible environment for our own kids to flourish and wanting to broadly improve opportunity for others. In practicality, these ideas have been at odds with each other, since those with means and access to alternatives don’t want to send their kids to “bad“ schools, which keeps those schools in a perpetual state of having the lowest achieving students in them.

There’s a creep to it, too, because if the lower achieving kids and kids with behavioral problems are the ones left in the school, good teachers and administrators leave too.

[stokesjokes]

JC, parents Resistance to public schools has as much to do with the social agenda their curriculum is pushing as it does with test scores. Change the agenda and public schools wouldn't be worried about this. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

This is true in some cases, but it struck me funny because I’ve had the same thoughts in the other direction.

My kids are in private school locally, but when we were deciding where we wanted to send them, one of the conversations we had was about the things we would have to “un-teach” to our kids. Now, most smaller private Christian schools have pretty fundamentalist roots and leanings (a good number started as “segregation academies”), I found with several (at least based on their websites ) I would have plenty to un-teach from them too.

[TH Spangler]

I’ve read that the achievement gap between black and white students was at its lowest at the height of bussing. Once bussing stopped, the gap began to widen again.

When funding is based on zip codes, it makes perfect sense why the wealthier suburbs would get better schooling than the lower income areas. If we want to level the playing field, we have to make the public school options better for those lower income students.

I thought we have been pouring money at under preforming zip codes as a solution.

Give them the private school option and thier local public school has to buckle down and gets better.

[TH Spangler]

JC, parents Resistance to public schools has as much to do with the social agenda their curriculum is pushing as it does with test scores. Change the agenda and public schools wouldn't be worried about this. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

This is true in some cases, but it struck me funny because I’ve had the same thoughts in the other direction.

My kids are in private school locally, but when we were deciding where we wanted to send them, one of the conversations we had was about the things we would have to “un-teach” to our kids. Now, most smaller private Christian schools have pretty fundamentalist roots and leanings (a good number started as “segregation academies”), I found with several (at least based on their websites ) I would have plenty to un-teach from them too.

Might not be in time for your concerns, but over time there would be more schools for you to pick from. You would probably be beable to find what you're looking for.

[Sly Fox]

I wasn't up to speed on those recent bills trying to finagle resources from the CARES Act boondoggle. The school choice narrative for decades has focused on using local tax money to more equitably represent the needs of taxpayers to their own children. Slicing and dicing at that big pile of money seems opportunistic from all parties these days.

postie - You & I have different reactions to the inner city challenges. I agree that parental involvement is a big factor. However it has been my experience that the kids themselves feel hopeless because they feel trapped. Charter schools are a start. But the public schools in some communities are miserable in spite of the best intentions of the faculty & staff. I have yet to meet a teacher at the disadvantaged schools where I am involved who is willing to allow their own children to attend their school. In fact, the largest movement of new homeschool families pre-pandemic was public school teachers taking the exit door.

[RubberMallet]

my view in short (I too have a lot of thoughts on this):

Very much pro school choice and pro charter school. I want nothing to do with any tax break, tax money, etc to fund our homeschooling. In IA you get tax breaks but there is a ton of oversight. PASS. Surprisingly IL we are basically free and clear.

I'm willing to chalk up the taxes I pay into school as the hope of a continued functioning society.

[thepostman]

I’ve read that the achievement gap between black and white students was at its lowest at the height of bussing. Once bussing stopped, the gap began to widen again.

When funding is based on zip codes, it makes perfect sense why the wealthier suburbs would get better schooling than the lower income areas. If we want to level the playing field, we have to make the public school options better for those lower income students.

I thought we have been pouring money at under preforming zip codes as a solution.

Give them the private school option and thier local public school has to buckle down and gets better.

Talk to teachers who work in these zip codes and they will laugh at this kind of statement.

[TH Spangler]

I’ve read that the achievement gap between black and white students was at its lowest at the height of bussing. Once bussing stopped, the gap began to widen again.

There was an interesting podcast series from one of the “This American Life” producers recently called “Nice White Parents” that took a pretty in-depth look at some of the history behind these public school/school choice issues.

I saw an interesting statistic yesterday. Over half black families live in the suburbs and send their children to public schools.

[stokesjokes]

JC, parents Resistance to public schools has as much to do with the social agenda their curriculum is pushing as it does with test scores. Change the agenda and public schools wouldn't be worried about this. I'm not going to hold my breath though.

This is true in some cases, but it struck me funny because I’ve had the same thoughts in the other direction.

My kids are in private school locally, but when we were deciding where we wanted to send them, one of the conversations we had was about the things we would have to “un-teach” to our kids. Now, most smaller private Christian schools have pretty fundamentalist roots and leanings (a good number started as “segregation academies”), I found with several (at least based on their websites ) I would have plenty to un-teach from them too.

Might not be in time for your concerns, but over time there would be more schools for you to pick from. You would probably be beable to find what you're looking for.

You're right, and as fundamentalism in general has waned, a lot of these schools are relaxing as well. Heck, I was part of the first class at Liberty that was allowed to wear jeans to class!

One of the gaps that may occur with school choice is the lack of non-religious private schools. If you're a believer in free-market capitalism, it would theoretically be a gap that gets filled if the market demands it.

[RubberMallet]

One of the interesting things from that podcast series was they tracked down a bunch of white parents who said the same thing back in the day and wanted to push for more integrated schools to help level the playing field, but almost none of them sent their own kids to the “black” schools in their district.

We are perpetually caught between valuing the best possible environment for our own kids to flourish and wanting to broadly improve opportunity for others. In practicality, these ideas have been at odds with each other, since those with means and access to alternatives don’t want to send their kids to “bad“ schools, which keeps those schools in a perpetual state of having the lowest achieving students in them.

There’s a creep to it, too, because if the lower achieving kids and kids with behavioral problems are the ones left in the school, good teachers and administrators leave too.

real talk. real issues. we've been accused of stripping our local schools of "smart" kids which hurts the school system and causes good teachers to retire or leave to private schools and thus hurts society. I've told all those people to pound sand and sacrifice your kids for the "good" of society if you want. on the other hand i'm freeing up resources to provide more to those who need it.

Chicago suburbs have had this issue quite bit. they all believe we need to do this but none are willing to to send their kids off into these schools. or ones that do have so many issues that they have to pull them out.

[thepostman]

I wasn't up to speed on those recent bills trying to finagle resources from the CARES Act boondoggle. The school choice narrative for decades has focused on using local tax money to more equitably represent the needs of taxpayers to their own children. Slicing and dicing at that big pile of money seems opportunistic from all parties these days.

postie - You & I have different reactions to the inner city challenges. I agree that parental involvement is a big factor. However it has been my experience that the kids themselves feel hopeless because they feel trapped. Charter schools are a start. But the public schools in some communities are miserable in spite of the best intentions of the faculty & staff. I have yet to meet a teacher at the disadvantaged schools where I am involved who is willing to allow their own children to attend their school. In fact, the largest movement of new homeschool families pre-pandemic was public school teachers taking the exit door.

But how does school choice help those underprivileged areas with kids who have parents that couldn't care less? Obviously what is happening now isn't working for those kids either.

It is a complicated issue and one I am constantly reading about.

With that said, if I was unhappy with the school my kids went to and I had school choice, I would happily take advantage of that. So I'm a bit of a hypocrite.

I am concerned that school choice won't actually help those kids in need the most and in a way, make it worse. How would be the best way to address issues with those kids? I wish I knew. My own personal answer is to continue to invest in some of the non-profits you mentioned earlier both in time and in money.

[RubberMallet]

There are definitely other issues/factors that you have to take into consideration. The reality is that if you have parents that don't care, you are going to be hard pressed to find a education plan that will allow their children to thrive.

[Sly Fox]

I agree at the elementary level, Mallet. My experience at the secondary level has been more promising based on my exposure to kids who are internally driven and just need some hope. We often feel like we are rescuing the ones who care enough to be rescued. It is heartbreaking.

For the record, I admire the Teach for America folks immensely. But they are just a small bandaid on a broken system.

[TH Spangler]

real talk. real issues. we've been accused of stripping our local schools of "smart" kids which hurts the school system and causes good teachers to retire or leave to private schools and thus hurts society.

You're not going to find many public school teachers leaving their job to go work at 90% of the private schools no matter how much better the kids are. They would have to take a 50% + pay cut. I know a private school "Dept Head" that makes 50% of what my buddies wife makes as a Virginia Beach grade school teacher.

Many parents will always choose private with or without a voucher. I’ve noticed; private schools “do not” (strict about it) advance children if they do not meet their efficiency requirement. If it happens more than once, due to the age difference between them and children in the class, they have to drop the student. Also, private schools are more selective, they don’t have to take children with special needs. They don’t slow down the class for one or two.

[thepostman]

There are definitely other issues/factors that you have to take into consideration. The reality is that if you have parents that don't care, you are going to be hard pressed to find a education plan that will allow their children to thrive.

Yeah, I certinaly agree with that and understand that. My point really is, whatever we do with education as a whole shouldn't make it even harder for those kids than it already is.

It is a complicated issue and one im still trying to wrap my head around.

[TH Spangler]

Point I was making is, if you are a Christian parent that doesnt want your child indoctrinated into the current public school social agenda and at the same time want them to receive the best education possible ..... always rememberer the staff and teachers at the private school are making as big a financial sacrifice as you are for your child.