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#610602
RubberMallet wrote: September 25th, 2020, 9:52 am
Jonathan Carone wrote:As I've made more money I've actually gotten more liberal. I see the things we're lucky enough to afford that should be much more accessible and realize how lucky we are but also how unfair many things are.
you still haven't hit it yet. you are in limbo. in accumulation stage. and sure i'm talking mostly fiscally, but the relationship between fiscal and social conservatism is a interesting balance. I'm slightly left of center socially. but i'm bit farther right fiscally (I don't mind safety nets for the bottom of wage earners). If i was more socially conservative, i'd be much farther right fiscally.

Post accumulation we begin to preserve our capital and lessening our tax burden. I have stuff i want to keep my stuff is more steeped in aging than it is necessarily some decision we make. Sometime in our 40's our brains begin to lessen our curiosity and "progressivism". We react slower and begin to hold onto familiarity, routine, and are more likely to accept and want to preserve the norms they are used to (conservative).

You also were likely raised as i was in a UBER conservative household. I rebelled really my SR of highschool and the lion share of my friends and I were rah rah RATM type of guys and gals. Most of us now in our stages of life are most certainly way more conservative than we were in HS and College and even in our 20's. We've had this discussion at work, many of my late 20's-30's cohorts can feel the peel back of the far left they gravitated too in youth. That doesn't mean they listen to rush limbaugh and share ben shapiro articles amongst each other, they are just more closer to the center then they are to one side.
I get the generalization but that’s not me. When I was in college I pushed back on liberal ideas. Part of the reason I left Coastal and came to Liberty was to get away from those things.

When I left seminary and got my first ministry job, I was on a mission trip pushing back against the organization we were serving with when they were trying to introduce the topic of white privilege.

My move from center right to center left fiscally started in 2015 at the age of 28 when I started my own business. Socially it was post-Freddie Gray. I went through probably a two year period where I actively rethought everything I thought I knew. I challenged it all - politics, faith, social issues, etc - to find out what I really believed. The first time I ever voted for a democrat was in the 2018 election for Senate in Tennessee.

Having to give up healthcare in order to start a business - and seeing what my brother has went through without health care - completely changed my views on that. Getting to know people with different backgrounds than me made me realize there might be places where people can’t just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I’m by no means a leftist or progressive, and I would definitely still identify as a moderate, but I now sit left of center on many more things than I used to.

I also admit the Trump era taking the Republican Party from small government, conservative ideas to what it is today has influenced that move as well. That’s a story I’ve heard from many friends who were/are conservative but don’t agree with where the party has gone. It’s anecdotal, but I see more people in my circles moving left because of that than moving right to conserve what they have or think.
stokesjokes liked this
#610606
stokesjokes wrote: September 25th, 2020, 11:05 am
RubberMallet wrote: September 25th, 2020, 9:52 am
Jonathan Carone wrote:As I've made more money I've actually gotten more liberal. I see the things we're lucky enough to afford that should be much more accessible and realize how lucky we are but also how unfair many things are.
you still haven't hit it yet. you are in limbo. in accumulation stage. and sure i'm talking mostly fiscally, but the relationship between fiscal and social conservatism is a interesting balance. I'm slightly left of center socially. but i'm bit farther right fiscally (I don't mind safety nets for the bottom of wage earners). If i was more socially conservative, i'd be much farther right fiscally.

Post accumulation we begin to preserve our capital and lessening our tax burden. I have stuff i want to keep my stuff is more steeped in aging than it is necessarily some decision we make. Sometime in our 40's our brains begin to lessen our curiosity and "progressivism". We react slower and begin to hold onto familiarity, routine, and are more likely to accept and want to preserve the norms they are used to (conservative).

You also were likely raised as i was in a UBER conservative household. I rebelled really my SR of highschool and the lion share of my friends and I were rah rah RATM type of guys and gals. Most of us now in our stages of life are most certainly way more conservative than we were in HS and College and even in our 20's. We've had this discussion at work, many of my late 20's-30's cohorts can feel the peel back of the far left they gravitated too in youth. That doesn't mean they listen to rush limbaugh and share ben shapiro articles amongst each other, they are just more closer to the center then they are to one side.
F*! You, I won’t do what you tell me!

(I still bust out the RATM sometimes in my mid-30s)
Still my favorite Christmas song
stokesjokes liked this
#610607
ballcoach15 wrote: September 25th, 2020, 11:27 am Currently, 4 states allow one to take Bar Exam without law school. (Virginia, Washington, Vermont and California)

It's called "reading the law". I didn't know this until I attended a conference in Richmond earlier this year (before governor banned everything). I was talking with an attractive attorney who works for a big law firm in Richmond. She told me about the program, when I told her I'd always dreamed of taking the bar exam. If I were about 20 years younger, I'd attempt it.
All strippers and call girls tell you they are really doing it for money for law school or med school. C’mon ballcoach don’t be so gullible
#610608
Purple Haize wrote: September 25th, 2020, 1:29 pm
stokesjokes wrote: September 25th, 2020, 11:05 am
RubberMallet wrote: September 25th, 2020, 9:52 am

you still haven't hit it yet. you are in limbo. in accumulation stage. and sure i'm talking mostly fiscally, but the relationship between fiscal and social conservatism is a interesting balance. I'm slightly left of center socially. but i'm bit farther right fiscally (I don't mind safety nets for the bottom of wage earners). If i was more socially conservative, i'd be much farther right fiscally.

Post accumulation we begin to preserve our capital and lessening our tax burden. I have stuff i want to keep my stuff is more steeped in aging than it is necessarily some decision we make. Sometime in our 40's our brains begin to lessen our curiosity and "progressivism". We react slower and begin to hold onto familiarity, routine, and are more likely to accept and want to preserve the norms they are used to (conservative).

You also were likely raised as i was in a UBER conservative household. I rebelled really my SR of highschool and the lion share of my friends and I were rah rah RATM type of guys and gals. Most of us now in our stages of life are most certainly way more conservative than we were in HS and College and even in our 20's. We've had this discussion at work, many of my late 20's-30's cohorts can feel the peel back of the far left they gravitated too in youth. That doesn't mean they listen to rush limbaugh and share ben shapiro articles amongst each other, they are just more closer to the center then they are to one side.
F*! You, I won’t do what you tell me!

(I still bust out the RATM sometimes in my mid-30s)
Still my favorite Christmas song
Ah yes, I can still remember gathering around the family piano, singing about racist cops
#610609
stokesjokes wrote: September 25th, 2020, 1:31 pm
Purple Haize wrote: September 25th, 2020, 1:29 pm
stokesjokes wrote: September 25th, 2020, 11:05 am

F*! You, I won’t do what you tell me!

(I still bust out the RATM sometimes in my mid-30s)
Still my favorite Christmas song
Ah yes, I can still remember gathering around the family piano, singing about racist cops
You think I jest I see


stokesjokes liked this
#610610
Jonathan Carone wrote: September 25th, 2020, 12:56 pm
RubberMallet wrote: September 25th, 2020, 9:52 am
Jonathan Carone wrote:As I've made more money I've actually gotten more liberal. I see the things we're lucky enough to afford that should be much more accessible and realize how lucky we are but also how unfair many things are.
you still haven't hit it yet. you are in limbo. in accumulation stage. and sure i'm talking mostly fiscally, but the relationship between fiscal and social conservatism is a interesting balance. I'm slightly left of center socially. but i'm bit farther right fiscally (I don't mind safety nets for the bottom of wage earners). If i was more socially conservative, i'd be much farther right fiscally.

Post accumulation we begin to preserve our capital and lessening our tax burden. I have stuff i want to keep my stuff is more steeped in aging than it is necessarily some decision we make. Sometime in our 40's our brains begin to lessen our curiosity and "progressivism". We react slower and begin to hold onto familiarity, routine, and are more likely to accept and want to preserve the norms they are used to (conservative).

You also were likely raised as i was in a UBER conservative household. I rebelled really my SR of highschool and the lion share of my friends and I were rah rah RATM type of guys and gals. Most of us now in our stages of life are most certainly way more conservative than we were in HS and College and even in our 20's. We've had this discussion at work, many of my late 20's-30's cohorts can feel the peel back of the far left they gravitated too in youth. That doesn't mean they listen to rush limbaugh and share ben shapiro articles amongst each other, they are just more closer to the center then they are to one side.
I get the generalization but that’s not me. When I was in college I pushed back on liberal ideas. Part of the reason I left Coastal and came to Liberty was to get away from those things.

When I left seminary and got my first ministry job, I was on a mission trip pushing back against the organization we were serving with when they were trying to introduce the topic of white privilege.

My move from center right to center left fiscally started in 2015 at the age of 28 when I started my own business. Socially it was post-Freddie Gray. I went through probably a two year period where I actively rethought everything I thought I knew. I challenged it all - politics, faith, social issues, etc - to find out what I really believed. The first time I ever voted for a democrat was in the 2018 election for Senate in Tennessee.

Having to give up healthcare in order to start a business - and seeing what my brother has went through without health care - completely changed my views on that. Getting to know people with different backgrounds than me made me realize there might be places where people can’t just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I’m by no means a leftist or progressive, and I would definitely still identify as a moderate, but I now sit left of center on many more things than I used to.

I also admit the Trump era taking the Republican Party from small government, conservative ideas to what it is today has influenced that move as well. That’s a story I’ve heard from many friends who were/are conservative but don’t agree with where the party has gone. It’s anecdotal, but I see more people in my circles moving left because of that than moving right to conserve what they have or think.
The eye-opener for me politically was learning that Black Christians, according to research done by Barna, hold more theologically orthodox beliefs than white Christians, yet vote completely differently. This isn’t to say that voting Democrat is more in line with theological orthodoxy, but obviously there is a point of view that, at least for me, was completely neglected in my upbringing in the church and the broader white evangelical community.
Jonathan Carone liked this
#610613
stokesjokes wrote: September 25th, 2020, 1:38 pm The eye-opener for me politically was learning that Black Christians, according to research done by Barna, hold more theologically orthodox beliefs than white Christians, yet vote completely differently. This isn’t to say that voting Democrat is more in line with theological orthodoxy, but obviously there is a point of view that, at least for me, was completely neglected in my upbringing in the church and the broader white evangelical community.
It was working with churches and missionaries around the world for me. Getting to know Christians in Canada, Germany, Australia, Malaysia, and Singapore and seeing how they apply their beliefs to government made me realize what I was taught growing up was only one perspective.
stokesjokes, Rubicon liked this
#610616
Purple Haize wrote: September 25th, 2020, 1:31 pm
ballcoach15 wrote: September 25th, 2020, 11:27 am Currently, 4 states allow one to take Bar Exam without law school. (Virginia, Washington, Vermont and California)

It's called "reading the law". I didn't know this until I attended a conference in Richmond earlier this year (before governor banned everything). I was talking with an attractive attorney who works for a big law firm in Richmond. She told me about the program, when I told her I'd always dreamed of taking the bar exam. If I were about 20 years younger, I'd attempt it.
All strippers and call girls tell you they are really doing it for money for law school or med school. C’mon ballcoach don’t be so gullible
There's more truth to that, than you'd ever believe. I know a doctor in North Carolina who "worked" her way thru school as a stripper.
By Rubicon
Posts
#610619
Jonathan Carone wrote: September 25th, 2020, 2:01 pm
It was working with churches and missionaries around the world for me. Getting to know Christians in Canada, Germany, Australia, Malaysia, and Singapore and seeing how they apply their beliefs to government made me realize what I was taught growing up was only one perspective.
I find this in myself as well. I am very, very conservative --- always have been. I haven't undergone any reexamination of my philosophical or political beliefs, but it was a very good experience for me serving my Mormon mission in northern Germany in the mid 1990s. I got to know people --- both church members, and non --- whom I respected and came to know well, but who had more liberal ideas --- especially on social issues or politics/government. This was an eye-opener to me, that you could even have prominent local church leaders, in good standing in the church, and with just as strong of faith as I, but with dramatically different views on politics and sometimes philosophical issues. It was a good experience to get this perspective.

That said, most active, believing Mormons abroad do tend to be very conservative (reflecting Mormonism as a whole) and America-philes. But there were some who had different views on that, and even more so working with non-Mormons. It kind of has to be that way, as "conservatives" in Europe are usually nowhere near what we would consider to be conservative here. The welfare state is so much a part of the warp and woof of the culture, and hardline conservative stances on things like that would be real cultural outliers (but there are people like that, too. They are a really good fit with the conservative American churches like Mormons, Baptists, Pentacostals, Seventh-day Adventists, etc. I would probably include Jehovah's Witnesses as conservative, too, except they really shy away from any government involvement and participation and higher education, so their views on politics and philosophy tend to remain personal, and not very influential in their sphere's of influence outside of their church community).
stokesjokes liked this
#610620
Interesting post. Not surprised Mormons tend to be America-philes, given the uniquely American roots of the movement. Although one might think the government's treatment of them at their founding would lead in another direction.

Also, isn't "Mormon" a no-no? Isn't it strictly "LDS" now?
By Rubicon
Posts
#610669
stokesjokes wrote: September 25th, 2020, 3:56 pm Interesting post. Not surprised Mormons tend to be America-philes, given the uniquely American roots of the movement. Although one might think the government's treatment of them at their founding would lead in another direction.
We definitely could have gone the other direction. We left the United States to then-Mexico, and then the army was sent out after us (part of that was conspiratorial --- Secretary of War Floyd (a Southerner) was trying to weaken the northern army in advance of the Civil War by sending out Johnston's Army for the Utah Territory boondoggle.). Doctrinally, we believe that the U.S. Constitution really is inspired by God, and sacred, so I don't think we ever could have turned anti-American.
Also, isn't "Mormon" a no-no? Isn't it strictly "LDS" now?
Sigh. Officially, yes, but in practice, no. It's like I've explained to people: None of us are offended by the term "Mormon" (at least, I don't know anyone who is), and most people are not trying to be offensive when they refer to us as Mormons. It's simply a term that's easiest for all involved when discussing . . . Mormons. :) . When discussing Mormonism with non-member colleagues, friends, etc., simplicity of communication is best. I've observed Mormon students actually telling classmates, "There's no such thing as Mormons," and confusing the heck out of them. I've pulled them aside and told them, "I know what you're trying to do there, but you totally confused your friend there. You need to make sure that you communicate effectively, and that might mean using terms like "Mormon" where both of you know what is meant. Your friend is now really confused, because he knows you're Mormon, and he knows that you go to seminary across the street during 3rd hour. But you just insisted that 'there is no such thing as Mormons.' Put yourself in their shoes."

The Handbook of Instructions was quietly revised to state that "Mormon" is fine, where it isn't practical to use the full name of the church; they just want us to use the proper name of the Church where possible or reasonable. Part of the reason for this is that there really is no replacement term for Mormon as an adjective (Mormon culture, Mormon literature, etc.). Just try to come up with one that isn't clunky and unwieldly. :)

ETA: Also, the given reason (full name of the Church because it contains the name of Christ) was hard in practice even for top Church leaders. They would use LDS or Latter-day Saints, but those also don't contain the name of Christ, either. :wink:
Last edited by Rubicon on September 26th, 2020, 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stokesjokes liked this
By Rubicon
Posts
#610680
As far as people "offending" Mormons by using the term Mormon, I like what Brigham Young said: "Only a fool takes offense where none is meant, but a bigger fool takes offense where it **is** meant." Since most people aren't trying to be offensive, that's one thing --- but why "feed the troll" when someone is trying to get under your skin? So, we never should be offended, regardless of intent.
stokesjokes liked this
#610703
Thanks for the response. As an outsider, I may be misunderstanding- but isn’t the Mormon :wink: church pretty doctrinally flexible? I’m thinking of the “constitution was inspired” piece. Wouldn’t it just take an update from the current prophet to negate that?
By Rubicon
Posts
#610739
stokesjokes wrote: September 26th, 2020, 3:37 pm Thanks for the response. As an outsider, I may be misunderstanding- but isn’t the Mormon :wink: church pretty doctrinally flexible? I’m thinking of the “constitution was inspired” piece. Wouldn’t it just take an update from the current prophet to negate that?
Some might answer, "yes," but most would say no. I emphatically say no. The reason is simple. If a church --- any church --- treats fundamental things like that, that church is going to shrivel up and die. We see this throughout Christianity at large, as churches are hemorrhaging members (but churches that aren't "tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine" are actually growing and growing stronger). When a church treats doctrine like things that can simply be flexibly changed, it's like Oceania suddenly being at war with Eastasia, and always having been at war with Eastasia. People know, just like Winston Smith in 1984, and this destroys any faith and confidence people have that the current "Eastasia/Eurasia" setting won't also be flexibly changed in the future.

That said, one important difference between Mormonism and Protestantism (not that it's the only one, of course) is that orthopraxy is more important than orthodoxy (right acts vs. right belief). This is manifested in the conversation about "works-based" vs. "faith/grace-based" salvation, but there are actually relatively few things one must believe to be Mormon. These are listed in the baptismal/temple interviews and the articles of faith. When one believes these core things (without which, there is no point in being Mormon), then the important thing is making and keeping covenants with God by authoritative means. This means that there are a wide variety of personal beliefs about a number of things --- many of which are important --- but that are not "disqualifying," and don't jeopardize one's membership. Not believing that the Constitution is inspired would be one of those things.

I think much of this orthodoxy focus holds true for Catholicism, too, but Catholicism is much more creedal than Mormonism (which it shares with Protestantism, in my view). That is, there are required beliefs in the catechism, but the important thing, like with Mormonism, is whether one has received the sacraments through proper authority. More important than whether one really believes transubstantiation, or the Immaculate Conception, etc.

There are Mormons who believe, for instance, that the Book of Mormon is fiction (that the people and places never existed, and that the events never happened). I, and most active believing Mormons don't get this at all (what is the point of being Mormon if that's true?), but if they profess belief in the "required" doctrinal things and make and keep their covenants, they aren't excluded from church membership.
#610787
I appreciate the perspective. Much of what I know about the LDS church I have learned from a place of criticism, so it’s good to get some balanced insight as well.

I admire the orthopraxy bit, I’ve found that so much of evangelicalism has valued orthodoxy so much that it’s become a modern-day gnosticism- secret knowledge of the exact right set of doctrines is what saves you. And orthopraxy has been so underemphasized that we come on message boards and argue about how to love our neighbors instead of actually doing it :D
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