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#603375
thepostman wrote: July 2nd, 2020, 10:54 pm No because the whole system is broken. Nothing we see today should be what is emulated. There needs to be real change. Something new. I just wish I knew what that was. But what is happening now, our over booked court systems, our crowded prisons and our over worked police officers is not helping anything.

Trump has actually done a good job on the prison reform problem but that is only part of a bigger problem.
We need to abolish the private prison system. I don’t really feel like going into it, just watch 13th on Netflix (might still be on YouTube for free) and read up on some of the stuff that is discussed in that. It will articulate it better than I ever could. It was quite eye opening how that system basically guarantees a high number of prisoners no matter what we do.
adam42381 liked this
#603376
13th is great and a fantastic starting point before digging into the ins and outs of everything wrong with the prison system. Especially for profit prisons but it all goes back to our justice system and how it treats people of color and poor people differently. Changing the prison system won't mean a thing if there isn't radical reform to our justice system. Same goes for police reform.
adam42381 liked this
#603377
As far as the statues go, tearing down if statues is ingrained in our history. Not debating anyone on this because frankly most people have their minds made up about statue removal and they aren’t changing it no matter what side of the debate they are on so debating it is a waste of everyone’s time unless someone is open to an honest discussion.

Pulling down statues? It’s a tradition that dates back to U.S. independence
Enthusiasm for the American Revolution led colonists to burn, disfigure, and deface any symbol of Britain and its hated king.

Read in National Geographic: https://apple.news/AJPw44uijSyaMZ5O7tXGCyw
Last edited by lynchburgwildcats on July 4th, 2020, 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#603378
thepostman wrote: July 4th, 2020, 11:06 pm 13th is great and a fantastic starting point before digging into the ins and outs of everything wrong with the prison system. Especially for profit prisons but it all goes back to our justice system and how it treats people of color and poor people differently. Changing the prison system won't mean a thing if there isn't radical reform to our justice system. Same goes for police reform.
It goes hand in hand. You remove the contracts and kickbacks from for-profit prisons that enable modern day slave labor and it removes a lot of the incentive for the legal system to create criminals to keep the price prison system afloat. You remove that incentive and hopefully it trickles down and helps bolster the reforms that are needed on the policing and legal side.
#603469
Purple Haize wrote: July 7th, 2020, 9:33 am JEB Stuart is coming down today in Richmond.
Let's face it. ALL the confederate general's statues will be coming down. Not a fan of the virtue signalling mayors who are doing it by "emergency order" because they don't want to wait for the legal process, but as long as they are preserved, I'm OK with it for now.
#603476
Purple Haize wrote: July 7th, 2020, 10:02 am It’s not gonna stop with Confederate statues
And they aren’t really being preserved
Maybe so. Since Richmond's mayor clearly has no intention to actually protect these statues where they are, pragmatically I think it may be better they be carefully removed rather than allowed to be destroyed. Hopefully sanity will be restored at some point, and the people can decide their ultimate destiny.
#603480
I think the confederate statues should be removed from public areas where they were put up to intimidate black Americans, but they should be preserved in a museum-like setting to explain who the person is and the history of the area.

In the south, there are a lot of very famous historical areas from the Civil War that should be remembered, but Confederate soldiers should not be given a place of honor or intimidation.
adam42381, JK37 liked this
#603481
I'm not sure if confederate statues should be displayed in places of prominence but the tearing down of them illegally is not the way to go. I can understand why mayors what to move quickly to help preserve these things before they get destroyed. Museums can be great money makers so use this as a way to make money off of people who have a soft spot in their heart for losers :P I don't know about you guys, but I prefer my war heroes that don't lose :wink:
lynchburgwildcats liked this
#603484
Jonathan Carone wrote: July 7th, 2020, 12:00 pm I think the confederate statues should be removed from public areas where they were put up to intimidate black Americans, but they should be preserved in a museum-like setting to explain who the person is and the history of the area.

In the south, there are a lot of very famous historical areas from the Civil War that should be remembered, but Confederate soldiers should not be given a place of honor or intimidation.
This is the kind of condescension I would expect from Robin DeAngelo. Do you know a single black person who would be "intimidated" by a statue? I don't. Offended, yes. I think they belong in museums, where people can choose to enter and view them or not.
Purple Haize liked this
#603494
Correct. Right smack dab in the middle of the Jim Crow Era. They were installed to remind blacks in southern towns who was in charge. In 2017, the American Historical Association put out a statement that included this paragraph:

Memorials to the Confederacy were intended, in part, to obscure the terrorism required to overthrow Reconstruction, and to intimidate African Americans politically and isolate them from the mainstream of public life. A reprise of commemoration during the mid-20th century coincided with the Civil Rights Movement and included a wave of renaming and the popularization of the Confederate flag as a political symbol. Events in Charlottesville and elsewhere indicate that these symbols of white supremacy are still being invoked for similar purposes.
A study showed that most Confederate statues were build during two time periods: in the early 1900s, and then again in the 1950s and 60s. Both were times of extreme civil rights tension (source).

Image

In that article, Jane Dailey - assistant professor of history at the University of Chicago - is quoted saying most of the people who were involved in erecting the monuments were not necessarily erecting a monument to the past:

"I think it's important to understand that one of the meanings of these monuments when they're put up, is to try to settle the meaning of the war" Dailey said. "But also the shape of the future, by saying that elite Southern whites are in control and are going to build monuments to themselves effectively."
So while I'm not in any way in support of vandalism or tearing down monuments in illegal ways, I do think local governments should take them down and move them to places where the entire story can be told and, like you said, people can choose whether or not they see them.
adam42381 liked this
#603502
Some or you guys throw that word Marxist around so flippantly. Granted, there is some of that intertwined in some of rhe left wing ideology but mainly on the fringes. It's becoming the rights go to move when trying to discredit someone. Just like the left's go to move is to call ring wingers racists. Those terms lose their meanings due to their overuse.

Dictionary definitions:

Marxist: an adherent of Karl Marx or his theories

Racist: a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others
#603503
thepostman wrote: July 7th, 2020, 4:45 pm Some or you guys throw that word Marxist around so flippantly. Granted, there is some of that intertwined in some of rhe left wing ideology but mainly on the fringes. It's becoming the rights go to move when trying to discredit someone. Just like the left's go to move is to call ring wingers racists. Those terms lose their meanings due to their overuse.

Dictionary definitions:

Marxist: an adherent of Karl Marx or his theories

Racist: a person who believes in racism, the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others
You sound like a good Democrat. Dont look now, your party has left you. :lol:
#603504
Did you miss the part of my post where I was critical of them and their overuse of the term racist? Surely you didn't.

If I had it my way there would be barely any presence of government. Just enough to keep citizens safe but that isn’t the way of either party. Spend. Spend. Spend is the philosophy of both parties.
TH Spangler liked this
#603506
the infatuation with that flag and the statues is mindbogglingly dumb. like you guys lost. you are losers. I think it all boils down to our botching of Reconstruction. US Grant was an advocate of occupying the South like a conquered country but Congress and Andrew Johnson didn't like that, they tried their best to let the South keep that Dixie spirit, thinking that it would heal the wounds of the war better. So in an effort to make the South feel good we let them put up these monuments to commemorate their leaders. and now all that stupidity is coming home to roost. obviously many fought for the confederacy for a myriad of reasons but the reality is the larger argument the confederacy had re: slaves was absolutely abhorrent.

obviously take them down properly and don't let a mob of idiots run rough shod over your city. but its been time for a long time.
thepostman, olldflame, TH Spangler and 2 others liked this
#603507
RubberMallet wrote: July 7th, 2020, 5:18 pm the infatuation with that flag and the statues is mindbogglingly dumb. like you guys lost. you are losers. I think it all boils down to our botching of Reconstruction. US Grant was an advocate of occupying the South like a conquered country but Congress and Andrew Johnson didn't like that, they tried their best to let the South keep that Dixie spirit, thinking that it would heal the wounds of the war better. So in an effort to make the South feel good we let them put up these monuments to commemorate their leaders. and now all that stupidity is coming home to roost. obviously many fought for the confederacy for a myriad of reasons but the reality is the larger argument the confederacy had re: slaves was absolutely abhorrent.

obviously take them down properly and don't let a mob of idiots run rough shod over your city. but its been time for a long time.
Excellent post RM. This has been my position all along, but you brought up some things I hadn't thought of that reinforce it.
#603514
1907 was only 40 years after The Civil War ended. I believe JEB Stuart’s wife/widow was at the unveiling. We can not dismiss Father Time in the erection of these Statues. To say it was all some Evil Plot to keep the black man in his place is not entirely accurate. A lot of it had to do with that Wars soldiers coming to the end of their lives. Don’t be fooled by seeing “19” in front of dates and thinking that turned the page on Civil War Veterans
Lee on several occasions wrote Grant about the status of his veterans. There was a vocal faction in the North that wanted desperately to have the soldiers from Southern States killed and imprisoned. The relationship between Lee and Grant was crucial to helping our country heal. Lincoln as well knew that a heavy hand was not the answer. Lee, Jackson Maury and Stuart among others can make a great claim to having statues in their honor. I’m a fan off addition, not subtraction. Taking these down in the name of “intimidation” seems like a weak argument to me. Doing it under Emergency Powers smacks of abuse of power
#603521
thepostman wrote: July 7th, 2020, 7:52 pm They were traitors and shouldn't be celebrated. They belong in museums. I do agree it should be done legally but unfortunately the crazies aren't giving these mayors much choice if they want to preserve them for museums.
They were not traitors.
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