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#603533
thepostman wrote: July 7th, 2020, 8:13 pm I'm not sure they can be viewed as anything but traitors.
https://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/blog ... -traitors/

“ Nowhere in the Constitution, as it was written in 1787, is the concept of citizenship actually defined. In the five places where the Constitution refers to citizenship, it speaks of citizens of the states, and citizens of the United States. But the Constitution made no effort to sort out the relationship between the two, leaving the strange sense that Americans possessed a kind of dual citizenship, in their native State . . . and in the Union.

Until the Civil War settled matters, there was a plausible vagueness in the Constitution about the loyalty owed by citizens of states and the Union, and so long as it could be argued that Lee was simply functioning within the latitude of that vagueness by following his Virginia citizenship, it would be extraordinarily difficult to persuade a civilian jury that he had knowingly committed treason.”


At that time, people considered themselves citizens of their State first the United States Second. So fighting for ones State would not seem like a treasonous act. Secondly, they made their intentions clear in advance. There was no clandestine or secretive move. Soldiers from a West Point declared themselves States declared themselves sides were clearly drawn. Thirdly, there were no provisions prohibiting the secession of States from the Union. Fourthly, you had Ft Sumpter, but there is a reason it can technically be called the War of Northern Aggression. The CSA didn’t invade territories of the North until well into the War. Finally CSA soldiers and citizens were never labeled Traitors by congress and in fact the opposite on several occasions. Those are just reasons in broad strokes. I obviously am not an advocate of the main reason the Southern States decided to leave the Union. But to call them a Traitors is just rewriting history.
The American Revolution was by far a more treasonous act than the Civil War
Last edited by Purple Haize on July 7th, 2020, 9:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#603537
The abbeville institute? Really? The sole purpose of that organization is to celebrate the virtues of the South. It isnt some kind of unbiased retelling of history.

They were traitors and tired to rip our young country apart because they were afraid their economy would be destroyed by having free labor outlawed. They shouldn't be forgotten, but they also shouldn't be celebrated in places of prominence. That isn't to say I think all confederates were evil men but nothing they did is something we should continue to celebrate.

Just my 2 cents. Seems unwise to stick up for them.

More info on the abbeville institute if interested.

You know, to be fair and balanced :D

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Secre ... -Old/49337
#603538
thepostman wrote: July 7th, 2020, 9:53 pm The abbeville institute? Really? The sole purpose of that organization is to celebrate the virtues of the South. It isnt some kind of unbiased retelling of history.

They were traitors and tired to rip our young country apart because they were afraid their economy would be destroyed by having free labor outlawed. They shouldn't be forgotten, but they also shouldn't be celebrated in places of prominence. That isn't to say I think all confederates were evil men but nothing they did is something we should continue to celebrate.

Just my 2 cents. Seems unwise to stick up for them.

More info on the abbeville institute if interested.

You know, to be fair and balanced :D

https://www.chronicle.com/article/Secre ... -Old/49337
I picked that article because it was the easiest to read.
The quote I selected was from another source but highlighted in the article (one reason I picked it)
I notice you did not respond to any of the actual points
I literally said I was not in favor of why the Southern States decided to leave the Union
Leaving the Union was not a Traitorous act

Maybe UVA will be more to your liking
https://www.law.virginia.edu/news/20171 ... sion-legal
#603539
Yeah, I am guilty of not getting past the use of The abbeville institute because I am all too familiar with their work. It is used to justify the south's actions by so many so I didn't read past that.

I do apologize for that. I should have read your entire post.
It is hard to take seriously any southern institute's take in the Civil War as they have a vested interest in trying to save face. So yes, technically you may be right, I still view them as traitors and wanting to ruin this country before we could even get started. They shouldn't be celebrated in my opinion and there is really not much anybody could say to sway my opinion on that.

Again, I want to make it very clear I do not condone the removal of confederate monuments illegally. There is a right way to go about it and a segment of our society have used this moment to destroy as much as they can and it isn't ok. So please do not take my strong opinion against the confederates as some kind of stamp of approval on those actions. I don't think you think that about me but others seem to believe a lot of inaccurate things about me.

Anyways, I will end at that but I do want to applogize again for not reading your entire post. That wasn't cool of me.
Jonathan Carone liked this
#603540
thepostman wrote: July 7th, 2020, 10:13 pm Yeah, I am guilty of not getting past the use of The abbeville institute because I am all too familiar with their work. It is used to justify the south's actions by so many so I didn't read past that.

I do apologize for that. I should have read your entire post.
It is hard to take seriously any southern institute's take in the Civil War as they have a vested interest in trying to save face. So yes, technically you may be right, I still view them as traitors and wanting to ruin this country before we could even get started. They shouldn't be celebrated in my opinion and there is really not much anybody could say to sway my opinion on that.

Again, I want to make it very clear I do not condone the removal of confederate monuments illegally. There is a right way to go about it and a segment of our society have used this moment to destroy as much as they can and it isn't ok. So please do not take my strong opinion against the confederates as some kind of stamp approval on those actions. I don't think you think that about me but others seem to believe a lot of inaccurate things about me.

Anyways, I will end at that but I do want to applogize again for not reading your entire post. That wasn't cool of me.
We agree on the process of removal of the statues. I do think that the likes of people I mentioned are statue worthy. I’m not sure they all are, most notably Jeff Davis and Nathan Forest. I don’t subscribe to the mantra that the Civil War wasn’t about slavery because it was. But, and I can’t see how you wouldn’t agree, I don’t think the soldiers thought it was about slavery. The guys on the line never seem to fight for the same reasons politicians do.
#603548
not all of Mao's forces fought for him because they believed in his heinous social beliefs, many did so out of fear of their families lives and self preservation.

The Civil war is certainly much more nuanced than what we like to just make it seem but in totality it was a losing effort and whether you fought with good intentions or poor intentions you lost. if you fought with good intentions, you didn't really lose much really.
thepostman liked this
#603553
thepostman wrote: July 7th, 2020, 4:56 pm If I had it my way there would be barely any presence of government. Just enough to keep citizens safe but that isn’t the way of either party. Spend. Spend. Spend is the philosophy of both parties.
Trump is spending to backstop the markets right now. Basically protecting private sector 401k pensions. Just like past administrations did for public sector pentions, borrowing and spending.
#603559
Quantitive easing is taking place at astronomical levels which is why they are buying up securities and offering so much in ppp loans. luckily for the US QE is happening all over so the value of the dollar is really not moving as much. the issue for all of us is we will likely see much more inflation over the next few years to make up for so much printing. but inflation also eases debt levels.
#603589
i don't think inflation hits double digits but it will hit above 5% in my very not worth much opinion. ss security will not be able to keep up for certain mostly because it can't raise the cap enough without tons of complaining and because of what it invests in. unless interest rates are raised (they won't be) The rate of return on SS investments will be very little as it only invests in treasuries and that averages a rate of return of like 2%. covid has dropped that rate to under .9%. even before that estimate, Social security will not be able to fund itself in 2021 100% with 2021 payroll taxes and that estimate was prior to covid19. which means they'll begin to dip into the reserve fund which will likely be depleted by 2035.

now the answer would be to open up SS investing to other bonds avenues and even perhaps equities. many states fund their pension with modest portfolios that net 4-5% returns. The issue is that SS has like 3 trillion dollars. if they injected 3 trillion dollars into the stock/bond market all at once it would send the economy into a tizzy so I believe the only thing to change is what you invest in and begin stepping in investments into slightly more risk averse investment portfolios. the problem is the gvt loves to use social security funds to cover up deficits. people are living longer so you may also really reduce the benefits at 62 and increase them at a better clip at 70 encouraging many to wait to take them.

my plan is to not rely on it at all. we shall see.
#603604
Social Security is theft.
#603616
TH Spangler wrote:
jbock13 wrote: July 8th, 2020, 9:17 pm Social Security is theft.
Social Security is the same as public sector pensions. :lol:
Not really but okay.

*I'd gladly give up my public sector pension to invest it in much better performing mutual funds.
#603618
jbock13 wrote: July 9th, 2020, 9:09 am
TH Spangler wrote:
jbock13 wrote: July 8th, 2020, 9:17 pm Social Security is theft.
Social Security is the same as public sector pensions. :lol:
Not really but okay.

*I'd gladly give up my public sector pension to invest it in much better performing mutual funds.
Both, money promised that goverment dosen't have. Both, money retirees depend on. :lol:

Keep the printing press rolling.
#603620
Just for a reference of time a non brevet Union general lived long through WWI and passed in the late 30's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelbert_Ames

As for traitors or not. It was by intent that the US never recognized the independence of the CSA and that the war is referenced as a Civil War. It is a war within a country.

It was also an integral part of the surrender negotiation that the Confederate troops and generals would be granted blanket amnesty.

Was it technically treason. Yes. But it was deliberately not cast as such for the sake of reunification. Which was ultimately Lincolns goal. He couldn't have cared less about slavery, he didn't want the union to disolve during his presidency. Reunification was his only goal.
#603641
Even Liberals are tired of the Progressive cancel culture:

The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other.
https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice ... en-debate/
#603642
Jonathan Carone wrote: July 9th, 2020, 12:49 pm Even Liberals are tired of the Progressive cancel culture:

The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other.
https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice ... en-debate/
And thefar left, despite their vociferous denial that such a thing exists, are doing their best to cancel them. A few of the original signees have pulled out, not because they disagree with what the letter says, but because they don't want guilt by association with some of the others. For the record, not a single person right of center on the list.
#603661
Gentlemen, I just created a new account as SCAR keep's locking me out. I find it somewhat amusing to read a discussion by a bunch of white guys talking about race relations :D . Kudos to Jon, Posty, Rubber M. and Lynchburg Wildcat. You guys may not get EVERYTHING perfect but none of us do. At least you have more open minds about LISTENING to those of us who have to deal with race on a daily basis.

I feel like the general feeling on this board and in society is that the justice system is broken. It is working exactly how it was designed. Some feel it is too far gone and some feel like the protesters' flaws are way more important to criticize than the actual injustices. Lot of energy spent on confederate statues. 100% true that they were put up to intimidate black folks. People focus on the KKK but the United States government and its states and local governments have done it's fair share of targeting black folks since Reconstruction (Red Lining, Jim Crow Laws, black codes, Tuskegee experiments, exclusion from federal financial relief like the GI Bill, The New Deal etc.). Not to mention voter suppression, voter intimidation and the school to prison pipeline.

You can choose to ignore these facts and focus on what blacks can do for themselves to fix the issues. But when the rules are ALL written to stop you and imprison you for profit and curtail your ability to collect wealth via home ownership, employment, etc, it makes it nearly impossible to get out of the cycle of poverty. Folks also talk about black on black crime while ignoring white on white crime and other races as well are at virtually the same rate. The facts are that crimes are committed against those in close proximity to your life. Also focusing on crime instead of the poverty and inequalities that create the financial desperation is a cruel joke that has plagued us for generations.

We won't talk about the way the justice system penalizes blacks at 5 times the rate for the same drug crimes or that crack cocaine was penalized at a higher rate than powder in the Reagan 80s. The War on Drugs was developed to target blacks. Republicans. The 1994 crime bill was the Democrats. It is why I am an independent and try to vote for the individual that is going to positively impact my life. Opiods affect mostly white people so rather than criminalize it, we treat it as a health issue. The crack cocaine epidemic was criminalized (both seller and user).

Many things have to change in our society. Posty said it best. It is time to listen. One of the reasons I left FF back in 2016 was because I felt like there was a ton of racial insensitivity and a lack of awareness around Kaepernick and the 2016 election. Also someone was pushing the views of Eugenics and that was my cue to exit.

Not sure if I'm back but I wanted to come on and read if there was any progress. I can say I was somewhat pleased with the discussion for the most part. At least there is a willingness to discuss issues.
#603673
a few large pain points are blacks getting screwed with the GI bill, moving industry out to the suburbs, and the drugwars of the 80's. property ownership is the largest handoff of wealth from generation to generation and it was almost impossible for blacks to own property in most places until like the 60's! and even then it was very difficult. there are outliers in every racial/ethnic category one could point to but the reality is black people have been dealt a terrible hand in the US since its existence and for all the great things this country has introduced into the world shaking the ancestral segregation that has plagued the planet since we began has still been very difficult.

I also believe police forces have been hosed by not only the actions of a few but also the municipalities, states and federal gvts as well. I know a lot of cops. They are like we enforce the laws on the books. we didn't put the laws there. But we are taught to enforce them. Sure there are many we don't know and we get stuff wrong here and there. But we didn't put them there. Most cops don't want to be militarized. They want to go home to their spouses and children every night. Those are deals brokered with people higher up the ladder, not beat cops.

I think this has brought municipalities to their knees. the true power of a democracy is the people. Politicians should be shaking in their boots. Congress is full of 70yr olds who know absolutely nothing about the world today and its infuriating. just watch clips of these people questioning google, apple, and facebook executives! Its RIDICULOUS.

Times are changing. some i don't know I'm all about but many its about time.

Micah
lynchburgwildcats liked this
#603691
alabama24 wrote: July 9th, 2020, 4:03 pm
TIMSCAR20 wrote: July 9th, 2020, 2:53 pm Not sure if I'm back but I wanted to come on and read if there was any progress. I can say I was somewhat pleased with the discussion for the most part. At least there is a willingness to discuss issues.
I hope you are back!
We shall see. 2 kids and 2 jobs make it tough. I'm in quarantine now after my trip to Indianapolis for TBT so I can't interact with the family for 14 days.
#603692
RubberMallet wrote: July 9th, 2020, 4:14 pm a few large pain points are blacks getting screwed with the GI bill, moving industry out to the suburbs, and the drugwars of the 80's. property ownership is the largest handoff of wealth from generation to generation and it was almost impossible for blacks to own property in most places until like the 60's! and even then it was very difficult. there are outliers in every racial/ethnic category one could point to but the reality is black people have been dealt a terrible hand in the US since its existence and for all the great things this country has introduced into the world shaking the ancestral segregation that has plagued the planet since we began has still been very difficult.

I also believe police forces have been hosed by not only the actions of a few but also the municipalities, states and federal gvts as well. I know a lot of cops. They are like we enforce the laws on the books. we didn't put the laws there. But we are taught to enforce them. Sure there are many we don't know and we get stuff wrong here and there. But we didn't put them there. Most cops don't want to be militarized. They want to go home to their spouses and children every night. Those are deals brokered with people higher up the ladder, not beat cops.

I think this has brought municipalities to their knees. the true power of a democracy is the people. Politicians should be shaking in their boots. Congress is full of 70yr olds who know absolutely nothing about the world today and its infuriating. just watch clips of these people questioning google, apple, and facebook executives! Its RIDICULOUS.

Times are changing. some i don't know I'm all about but many its about time.

Micah
Yeah Congress and the Senate aren't even governing anymore really. The Senate is sitting on over 300 bi-partisan bills that they won't even vote on. They are really OLD too as you said. OUT OF TOUCH! As for the Police you are correct in the fact that they enforce the rules on the books. The problem is there are so many antiquated laws on the books that were/are designed to get minorities caught in the system. Also there are ridiculous puritanical laws on the books in many places. Extremists on the Left or the Right are dangerous to me. With the internet, social media, message boards, it seems these folks get their voices, amplified. Now we have a conspiracy theorist in the WH which makes it even worse. But that is for another thread that I'm too exhausted to even go into at this point :-).
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