jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
We all have a decision to what to be done to the temple or our body. Some will know, while many will not or ignore the signs that was placed before them. Stay comfortable/distracted if you'd like. Everyone has the choice to make. Ecclesiastes 1:18
“West of the Rockies youre on…”
Re: Coaching Carousel 2021
Posted: October 19th, 2021, 9:28 pm
by JK37
jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
This is where I land. Get it, don’t get it; it’s up to you. But not a single person who has told me they oppose it on the basis of their religion can articulate an argument on that basis. Not even a bad one. At this point, I’d settle for anything resembling coherence!
It’s a bad look for the faith when the loudest among us resemble the most ignorant.
jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
This is where I land. Get it, don’t get it; it’s up to you. But not a single person who has told me they oppose it on the basis of their religion can’t articulate an argument on that basis. Not even a bad one. At this point, I’d settle for anything resembling coherence!
It’s a bad look for the faith when the loudest among us resemble the most ignorant.
Seriously ? Did you miss the fetal cell line video ?
jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
We all have a decision to what to be done to the temple or our body. Some will know, while many will not or ignore the signs that was placed before them. Stay comfortable/distracted if you'd like. Everyone has the choice to make. Ecclesiastes 1:18
jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
This is where I land. Get it, don’t get it; it’s up to you. But not a single person who has told me they oppose it on the basis of their religion can’t articulate an argument on that basis. Not even a bad one. At this point, I’d settle for anything resembling coherence!
It’s a bad look for the faith when the loudest among us resemble the most ignorant.
Seriously ? Did you miss the fetal cell line video ?
jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
This is where I land. Get it, don’t get it; it’s up to you. But not a single person who has told me they oppose it on the basis of their religion can’t articulate an argument on that basis. Not even a bad one. At this point, I’d settle for anything resembling coherence!
It’s a bad look for the faith when the loudest among us resemble the most ignorant.
Seriously ? Did you miss the fetal cell line video ?
I don't follow these threads very often because in general they are futile...very few will change their opinion. So I did not see the video you mention but I'm aware of the concern that some have because a line of fetal cells was used on the creation of the vaccines. I get it. If that is your point and you are consistent with every other vaccine and product where the HEK293 fetal cell line are involved you have my respect. That would also preclude you or your children from many standard vaccines such as:
rubella
measles
rabies
shingles
hepatitis
They were used also in a number of products such as Tylenol and Advil and numerous cosmetics. It's used in research for Parkinson's Disease. There are many, many others. There is a long list on a pro-life Catholic site that that include Azithromycin / Zithromax, Hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir and Ivermectin as all being tested on HEK293. If true it should pose an ethical dilemma for those against the Covid vaccines but for these therapeutics. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/
This from a practicing Catholic, James Lawler, an infectious disease expert at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.
“I understand why people have concerns, The bottom line is almost all the medical products we use have in some way been touched by research that’s been done on fetal cell lines. These are cell lines that were originally derived from fetal tissue from aborted fetuses many of back in the 70s and 80s and they’ve been immortalized and retained and passaged again and again."
Molecular biologist Richard H. Ebright on Wednesday posted a letter from the National Institute of Health (NIH) showing that an NIH grant did fund gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, contrary to what Dr. Anthony Fauci had testified to the Senate.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 25th, 2021, 9:58 am
by stokesjokes
That’s a misrepresentation of what the letter actually says. Fauci and crew are guilty here of poor oversight and follow-up, but here’s text from the letter:
“The research plan was reviewed by NIH in advance of funding and NIH determined that it did not fit the definition of research involving enhanced pathogens of pandemic potential (ePPP) because these bat coronaviruses had not been shown to infect humans.”
To condense the rest of the letter, EcoHealth was given a specific grant, had “unexpected result of the research as opposed to something that the researchers set out to do” and “failed to report this finding right away, as was required by the terms of the grant.”
Also of note in the letter, the experimental viruses were “genetically distant” from COVID-19 and “are not and could not have become” COVID-19.
Gain-of-function is not mentioned at all in the letter and the NIH had previously denied EcoHealth’s grant request for gain-of-function research.
This isn’t to excuse Fauci’s persistence in denying the possibility of lab origin or refusal to investigate this stuff, but this letter has been taken to mean things that it does not mean.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 25th, 2021, 10:43 am
by TH Spangler
Tom Cotton
@TomCottonAR
Fauci knew.
He should be investigated and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
It really doesn't matter what Fauchi did or did not do. Nothing's going to happen to him just like before. And you know media is not going to tell any truth about what's really going on since the promise of flattening the curve because....well they're sponsored by Pfizer (you can look at GMA,CBS ("Health Watch"], Anderson Cooper 360, ABC Nightline,etc.). Of course folks will look the other way as usual because science. Why help/fully heal people when one can make more money keeping them sick? How can this be in a sinful world, right?
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 26th, 2021, 8:43 pm
by SumItUp
CDC updates their guidelines approving a 4th booster shot. In other news, an FDA advisory panel votes unanimously 17-0 to recommend the shots for those ages 5+.
We're all in this something something two weeks to something something...........
jbock13 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 4:23 pm
Where exactly does it say in the Bible that Christians should avoid vaccinations?
If your point is that it should be up to personal choice, then I agree.
We all have a decision to what to be done to the temple or our body. Some will know, while many will not or ignore the signs that was placed before them. Stay comfortable/distracted if you'd like. Everyone has the choice to make. Ecclesiastes 1:18
This is where I land. Get it, don’t get it; it’s up to you. But not a single person who has told me they oppose it on the basis of their religion can’t articulate an argument on that basis. Not even a bad one. At this point, I’d settle for anything resembling coherence!
It’s a bad look for the faith when the loudest among us resemble the most ignorant.
Seriously ? Did you miss the fetal cell line video ?
I don't follow these threads very often because in general they are futile...very few will change their opinion. So I did not see the video you mention but I'm aware of the concern that some have because a line of fetal cells was used on the creation of the vaccines. I get it. If that is your point and you are consistent with every other vaccine and product where the HEK293 fetal cell line are involved you have my respect. That would also preclude you or your children from many standard vaccines such as:
rubella
measles
rabies
shingles
hepatitis
They were used also in a number of products such as Tylenol and Advil and numerous cosmetics. It's used in research for Parkinson's Disease. There are many, many others. There is a long list on a pro-life Catholic site that that include Azithromycin / Zithromax, Hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir and Ivermectin as all being tested on HEK293. If true it should pose an ethical dilemma for those against the Covid vaccines but for these therapeutics. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/
This from a practicing Catholic, James Lawler, an infectious disease expert at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.
“I understand why people have concerns, The bottom line is almost all the medical products we use have in some way been touched by research that’s been done on fetal cell lines. These are cell lines that were originally derived from fetal tissue from aborted fetuses many of back in the 70s and 80s and they’ve been immortalized and retained and passaged again and again."
Let me preface this by saying that I am not necessarily accusing you of inventing the argument. However, the Tylenol argument is one of the most absurd leftist talking points that I have ever heard. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) dates as far back as 1852. The HEK.293 line was derived from an abortion in 1973.
There is a marked difference between taking a substance like Tylenol, which was not tainted in its testing and development stage in any way, from a substance that had its very genesis in its track to market tested on fetal cells.
The vast majority of the most common substances that are used by most people, long predate those cell lines.
One is tainted as it is tested as it is developed on the cell line, and thus necessarily becomes intertwined with and derived from the cell line.
Now one might not like this distinction, but it is a distinction that many Christians share in holding. The fact that one disagrees with the distinction doesn't make it any less sincere or religious. They just happen to disagree with it.
The distinction makes sense when you really think about it though. On one hand, you have a pre-existing substance. It matters not that some demonic psychopath takes it and then tests it on a cell line.
Besides, beyond the fetal cell line argument, many Christians have an inherent problem with mRNA vaccines, as they believe that only God has the right to artificially interfere with natural cellular biology. Some Christians would accept a traditional inactivated whole cell virus, but wouldn't accept the mRNA virus.
There is also the Kuyperian sphere of sovereignty argument (which holds the most weight with me.)
Regardless of which objection might be put forward, the fact that you disagree with these objections doesn't make them any less "Christian" or any less valid. Just as an Old Order Amish believer might disagree with you about driving a car.
We all have a decision to what to be done to the temple or our body. Some will know, while many will not or ignore the signs that was placed before them. Stay comfortable/distracted if you'd like. Everyone has the choice to make. Ecclesiastes 1:18
Seriously ? Did you miss the fetal cell line video ?
I don't follow these threads very often because in general they are futile...very few will change their opinion. So I did not see the video you mention but I'm aware of the concern that some have because a line of fetal cells was used on the creation of the vaccines. I get it. If that is your point and you are consistent with every other vaccine and product where the HEK293 fetal cell line are involved you have my respect. That would also preclude you or your children from many standard vaccines such as:
rubella
measles
rabies
shingles
hepatitis
They were used also in a number of products such as Tylenol and Advil and numerous cosmetics. It's used in research for Parkinson's Disease. There are many, many others. There is a long list on a pro-life Catholic site that that include Azithromycin / Zithromax, Hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir and Ivermectin as all being tested on HEK293. If true it should pose an ethical dilemma for those against the Covid vaccines but for these therapeutics. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/
This from a practicing Catholic, James Lawler, an infectious disease expert at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.
“I understand why people have concerns, The bottom line is almost all the medical products we use have in some way been touched by research that’s been done on fetal cell lines. These are cell lines that were originally derived from fetal tissue from aborted fetuses many of back in the 70s and 80s and they’ve been immortalized and retained and passaged again and again."
Let me preface this by saying that I am not necessarily accusing you of inventing the argument. However, the Tylenol argument is one of the most absurd leftist talking points that I have ever heard. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) dates as far back as 1852. The HEK.293 line was derived from an abortion in 1973.
There is a marked difference between taking a substance like Tylenol, which was not tainted in its testing and development stage in any way, from a substance that had its very genesis in its track to market tested on fetal cells.
The vast majority of the most common substances that are used by most people, long predate those cell lines.
One is tainted as it is tested as it is developed on the cell line, and thus necessarily becomes intertwined with and derived from the cell line.
Now one might not like this distinction, but it is a distinction that many Christians share in holding. The fact that one disagrees with the distinction doesn't make it any less sincere or religious. They just happen to disagree with it.
The distinction makes sense when you really think about it though. On one hand, you have a pre-existing substance. It matters not that some demonic psychopath takes it and then tests it on a cell line.
Besides, beyond the fetal cell line argument, many Christians have an inherent problem with mRNA vaccines, as they believe that only God has the right to artificially interfere with natural cellular biology. Some Christians would accept a traditional inactivated whole cell virus, but wouldn't accept the mRNA virus.
There is also the Kuyperian sphere of sovereignty argument (which holds the most weight with me.)
Regardless of which objection might be put forward, the fact that you disagree with these objections doesn't make them any less "Christian" or any less valid. Just as an Old Order Amish believer might disagree with you about driving a car.
Just as the polio vaccine was created prior these cell lines being available the polio vaccine has nonetheless been tested against them as have other products. I'm not sure an infectious disease expert from a research hospital who is also a practicing Catholic qualifies as a "leftist". He might but it should be proven before using that trope.
Tylenol aside, you ignored all of the other vaccines and medicines I listed. There are also a number of cosmetics and foods that have been tested on HEK 239 cells. Cancer therapies also have. Should one avoid cancer treatment that may have been developed involving HEK 239?
This may be a good example of Joseph telling his brothers that wat they meant for evil "God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today". Gen 50:20
Re: Coaching Carousel 2021
Posted: October 28th, 2021, 11:02 pm
by lynchburgwildcats
JK37 wrote: ↑October 19th, 2021, 9:28 pm
It’s a bad look for the faith when the loudest among us resemble the most ignorant.
Replace "faith" with any other applicable noun (like democrat, republican, etc.) and your statement would also generally be true.
Seriously ? Did you miss the fetal cell line video ?
I don't follow these threads very often because in general they are futile...very few will change their opinion. So I did not see the video you mention but I'm aware of the concern that some have because a line of fetal cells was used on the creation of the vaccines. I get it. If that is your point and you are consistent with every other vaccine and product where the HEK293 fetal cell line are involved you have my respect. That would also preclude you or your children from many standard vaccines such as:
rubella
measles
rabies
shingles
hepatitis
They were used also in a number of products such as Tylenol and Advil and numerous cosmetics. It's used in research for Parkinson's Disease. There are many, many others. There is a long list on a pro-life Catholic site that that include Azithromycin / Zithromax, Hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir and Ivermectin as all being tested on HEK293. If true it should pose an ethical dilemma for those against the Covid vaccines but for these therapeutics. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/
This from a practicing Catholic, James Lawler, an infectious disease expert at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.
“I understand why people have concerns, The bottom line is almost all the medical products we use have in some way been touched by research that’s been done on fetal cell lines. These are cell lines that were originally derived from fetal tissue from aborted fetuses many of back in the 70s and 80s and they’ve been immortalized and retained and passaged again and again."
Let me preface this by saying that I am not necessarily accusing you of inventing the argument. However, the Tylenol argument is one of the most absurd leftist talking points that I have ever heard. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) dates as far back as 1852. The HEK.293 line was derived from an abortion in 1973.
There is a marked difference between taking a substance like Tylenol, which was not tainted in its testing and development stage in any way, from a substance that had its very genesis in its track to market tested on fetal cells.
The vast majority of the most common substances that are used by most people, long predate those cell lines.
One is tainted as it is tested as it is developed on the cell line, and thus necessarily becomes intertwined with and derived from the cell line.
Now one might not like this distinction, but it is a distinction that many Christians share in holding. The fact that one disagrees with the distinction doesn't make it any less sincere or religious. They just happen to disagree with it.
The distinction makes sense when you really think about it though. On one hand, you have a pre-existing substance. It matters not that some demonic psychopath takes it and then tests it on a cell line.
Besides, beyond the fetal cell line argument, many Christians have an inherent problem with mRNA vaccines, as they believe that only God has the right to artificially interfere with natural cellular biology. Some Christians would accept a traditional inactivated whole cell virus, but wouldn't accept the mRNA virus.
There is also the Kuyperian sphere of sovereignty argument (which holds the most weight with me.)
Regardless of which objection might be put forward, the fact that you disagree with these objections doesn't make them any less "Christian" or any less valid. Just as an Old Order Amish believer might disagree with you about driving a car.
True, Tylenol and many other drugs have creation dates that predate HEK.293, but they are regularly tested using HEK.293. The versions of these drugs we have today are made possible because of their testing on HEK.293
Just John wrote: ↑October 20th, 2021, 12:01 am
I don't follow these threads very often because in general they are futile...very few will change their opinion. So I did not see the video you mention but I'm aware of the concern that some have because a line of fetal cells was used on the creation of the vaccines. I get it. If that is your point and you are consistent with every other vaccine and product where the HEK293 fetal cell line are involved you have my respect. That would also preclude you or your children from many standard vaccines such as:
rubella
measles
rabies
shingles
hepatitis
They were used also in a number of products such as Tylenol and Advil and numerous cosmetics. It's used in research for Parkinson's Disease. There are many, many others. There is a long list on a pro-life Catholic site that that include Azithromycin / Zithromax, Hydroxychloroquine, Remdesivir and Ivermectin as all being tested on HEK293. If true it should pose an ethical dilemma for those against the Covid vaccines but for these therapeutics. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/throughca ... -medicine/
This from a practicing Catholic, James Lawler, an infectious disease expert at the University of Nebraska Medical Center.
“I understand why people have concerns, The bottom line is almost all the medical products we use have in some way been touched by research that’s been done on fetal cell lines. These are cell lines that were originally derived from fetal tissue from aborted fetuses many of back in the 70s and 80s and they’ve been immortalized and retained and passaged again and again."
Let me preface this by saying that I am not necessarily accusing you of inventing the argument. However, the Tylenol argument is one of the most absurd leftist talking points that I have ever heard. Paracetamol (acetaminophen) dates as far back as 1852. The HEK.293 line was derived from an abortion in 1973.
There is a marked difference between taking a substance like Tylenol, which was not tainted in its testing and development stage in any way, from a substance that had its very genesis in its track to market tested on fetal cells.
The vast majority of the most common substances that are used by most people, long predate those cell lines.
One is tainted as it is tested as it is developed on the cell line, and thus necessarily becomes intertwined with and derived from the cell line.
Now one might not like this distinction, but it is a distinction that many Christians share in holding. The fact that one disagrees with the distinction doesn't make it any less sincere or religious. They just happen to disagree with it.
The distinction makes sense when you really think about it though. On one hand, you have a pre-existing substance. It matters not that some demonic psychopath takes it and then tests it on a cell line.
Besides, beyond the fetal cell line argument, many Christians have an inherent problem with mRNA vaccines, as they believe that only God has the right to artificially interfere with natural cellular biology. Some Christians would accept a traditional inactivated whole cell virus, but wouldn't accept the mRNA virus.
There is also the Kuyperian sphere of sovereignty argument (which holds the most weight with me.)
Regardless of which objection might be put forward, the fact that you disagree with these objections doesn't make them any less "Christian" or any less valid. Just as an Old Order Amish believer might disagree with you about driving a car.
Just as the polio vaccine was created prior these cell lines being available the polio vaccine has nonetheless been tested against them as have other products. I'm not sure an infectious disease expert from a research hospital who is also a practicing Catholic qualifies as a "leftist". He might but it should be proven before using that trope.
Tylenol aside, you ignored all of the other vaccines and medicines I listed. There are also a number of cosmetics and foods that have been tested on HEK 239 cells. Cancer therapies also have. Should one avoid cancer treatment that may have been developed involving HEK 239?
This may be a good example of Joseph telling his brothers that wat they meant for evil "God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today". Gen 50:20
You aren’t following what the distinction is for many Christians. It doesn’t matter IF something was tested on the line, it matters WHEN. If a product has its genesis in the line, then it can’t be knowingly used. If a product had its genesis (testing in the developmental stage) using the line, then it is tainted.
I used Tylenol as one example. I didn’t “ignore” the other things on your list. There are ethical versions of most of the other vaccines you listed.
There actually are two COVID vaccines that are not tainted by abortion as well, Sinovac (China) and Covax (India) as they tested on monkeys, but neither is available in the US.
Speaking of ignoring, you ignored the mRNA problem and the Kuyperian sphere problem.
I only raised these to point out that the fact other believers disagree with you here doesn’t make their view invalid.
Ultimately, it’s a conscience issue. Just like with an Amish believer (who interestingly enough generally don’t get these vaccines either.)
I don’t really have a dog in this fight. Our family was vaccinated for COVID the natural way. We didn’t even know our youngest had it until an antibody test confirmed it in him too. We’ve all had multiple exposures since then and have never got infected again. The actual illness was not a big deal at all. All those people who think it’s a death sentence need to turn off CNN.
So that’s just my two cents on this. I’ll check out now.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 29th, 2021, 8:31 am
by stokesjokes
I’m on both sides of this issue. People can claim a religious exemption and, by law, the government is not allowed to to say what is and isn’t a religious belief.
However, as a Christian, and interacting with other Christians on both sides of this issue, my takeaway is that those who are claiming religious convictions about the vaccine are doing it post-hoc. They decide they don’t want to get it first and then are searching for something to justify their already-gotten-to stance.
That’s why we bring up the common use of HEK-239 cells. Very few of the people who are now claiming that this use for this vaccine violates their conscience cared when it came to anything else they use that has origins with it.
I’m not saying this is true of everyone, but, by and large, this is what I have seen.
Also, the “mRNA problem” is not a problem. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how mRNA technology works. It doesn’t alter your cellular biology at all. It just uses it to create spike proteins. It does not even interact with the DNA of the cell.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 29th, 2021, 9:10 am
by ValkRider
Also, the “mRNA problem” is not a problem. It’s a fundamental misunderstanding of how mRNA technology works. It doesn’t alter your cellular biology at all. It just uses it to create spike proteins. It does not even interact with the DNA of the cell.
I have to jump back in on this point. No one said anything about the “altering your DNA” trope. I’m well aware how mRNA works.
However, some Christians believe that we shouldn’t be monkeying around with cellular biology on this level. I’m firmly in that camp and I’ll never take part in ANY medical therapy that uses such technology.
Using synthetic mRNA to instruct human cells to do anything other than what God programmed them to do is deeply problematic. It’s far too close to playing God.
It’s one thing to take a live or attenuated virus to expose someone to a pathogen. It’s another thing entirely to start playing around with mRNA and DNA (which is coming next).
I don’t expect anyone to agree with me, but I’m not budging on that. I’ll let a disease do what it will first. This body is temporary anyway.
Ok, now I’m out.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 29th, 2021, 9:19 am
by thepostman
I know I'm not going to change your mind but your logic just doesn't make sense. Basically anything from modern medicine could/would fit in this box you're painting. Do you reject all of modern medicine? I can understand some hesitancy but this logic just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and seems to be filled with holes.
I think the vaccine has been proven to be safe but if you decide not to get it, that is fine but there is no reason to latch onto flimsy, illogical ideas that have been pushed my conspiracy theorists.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 29th, 2021, 9:21 am
by ValkRider
Yes, I reject much of what passes as medicine today.
Re: The COVID-19 Megathread
Posted: October 29th, 2021, 9:23 am
by thepostman
Ok then. You and I won't agree on much in this regard. Such is life I suppose.
