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By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#593544
Right, even when I was more firm in my convictions about homosexual behavior being a sin, I had to view most marriage as outside of my jurisdiction anyway. The government recognizes Muslim marriages, Hindu marriages, atheist marriages, marriages by a justice of the peace, etc., what business is it of mine to say how those other groups should define marriage?

The best answer is to disentangle marriage from anything involving the state, IMO.
By Rubicon
Posts
#593576
chris leedlelee wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:34 pm
I think that the church places so much emphasis on the sin of homosexuality for a few reasons:
1) Homosexuality is pushed so heavily in our society, with a magnitude truly unlike any sin in our modern American culture.
This, to me, is the big problem among young people today (believers and non-believers alike). Does everyone remember when the "sea change" happened, and literally overnight, the country went from a majority opposing gay marriage to a majority supporting it (and this sentiment continued steamrolling from there)? This saddened me, but it was breathtaking how fast the change was ---- like a switch being flipped. And from that point, societal pressures aggressively insisted not on tolerance and kindness, but on absolute intellectual and moral acceptance and support of homosexuality (married or not). The societal pressures are now heavily directed towards thoughtcrime enforcement ---- you have to not only treat people in a Christian manner (with dignity, kindness, and respect), but you also cannot personally believe that fornication (hetero or homo) is wrong.

I'm in my 18th year of public school teaching (currently German, but I've also taught English and science). Over the last 3-4 years, there has been a massive explosion in students who identify as gay or trans. Most of them actually aren't, they're confused kids being tossed to and fro by the societal pressure --- including the massive glorification and promotion of it in the media (music, film, news, social media platforms, etc.). Many kids end up "figuring it out" over the years, and re-orienting themselves. I've served as a Mormon bishop twice, and I once had a student who was meeting with the missionaries and preparing for baptism. She started identifying as gay, and held hands with her girlfriend in the hall. I got a phone call at a baseball game in Tucson while we were warming up (I coached at the time) from her friend in our congregation who was distraught. In her baptismal interview with the missionary, she had disclosed that she was pregnant. This delayed her baptism so that she and we could ensure that she was repenting and understood and committed to keep the commandments following baptism. This is not a one-off; it happens frequently where supposedly "gay" students then decide that they are "bi," and you find that they tend to prefer the opposite gender . . .

I read an article, and have it somewhere, discussing the extremely high rate of teenage pregnancy and heterosexual sex among gay teenage girls and boys compared to "straight" girls and boys. The rates of promiscuity of all kinds is much higher among gay teens than straight teens (anxiety, depression, and suicide, too --- and while activists insist that this is because of homophobia, this isn't my experience at all. Society is very accepting and supportive of them. I think homosexuality correlates strongly with mental illness struggles, and there is inherent guilt that impacts all areas of life).

I firmly believe that most homosexuality among young people is because many of them are lost souls seeking acceptance, and mirroring the currents and trends pushed in society. I don't think many are actually gay to start with, but "wagon ruts" can be worn into the road through persistent sin, and it can definitely be ingrained. There are also some people who seem to have the proclivity from an early age, too, but I find that the vast majority have experienced abuse, pornography, drugs, etc. or are mimicking social trends.

We once had a youth fireside in our congregation with an "ask anything" Q&A. There were several non-Mormon friends present, and one of them asked why Mormons hate gay people. I asked everyone who had a gay friend or family member to raise their hands, and almost all hands went up. I told them to look around, and that was the answer to the question "**Do** Mormons hate gay people." What the question was really asking was "Why do Mormons teach that homosexuality is a sin, and why do they teach that all unrepented sin will bring unhappiness now and in the hereafter." That was the real question, and it's important that Christians of all kinds make it clear that we don't "hate" sinners, and that teaching the truth does not equal "hate." The best missionary tool all of us have is our own example and interactions, within our own spheres of influence.

To get back to your point that I quoted, yes, the gay agenda (not just gay marriage, but the "de-criminalization" of homosexuality --- and all forms of sexual sin, frankly, within the church) has a big pull among people, and is a challenge within our churches. That's why believers must continue and not shirk their duty to teach the truth.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#593588
@Rubicon I’ve worked with HS kids for over 25 years and you are spot on. I would say I saw it start about 10 years ago but it’s really hit full stride now. “Trans” is the big one now. It seems like it’s no longer ok to tell girls that it’s ok to play sports, wear pants and not want to play with dolls and still be a girl. That wanting those thing doesn’t make you a boy. Conversely if I guy likes art over athletics and theater over hunting and baking over shooting that doesn’t make him a girl. Somewhere along the way we lost that middle ground.
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By LUDad
Posts
#593593
Rubicon wrote: January 10th, 2020, 11:01 am
chris leedlelee wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:34 pm
I think that the church places so much emphasis on the sin of homosexuality for a few reasons:
1) Homosexuality is pushed so heavily in our society, with a magnitude truly unlike any sin in our modern American culture.
This, to me, is the big problem among young people today (believers and non-believers alike). Does everyone remember when the "sea change" happened, and literally overnight, the country went from a majority opposing gay marriage to a majority supporting it (and this sentiment continued steamrolling from there)? This saddened me, but it was breathtaking how fast the change was ---- like a switch being flipped. And from that point, societal pressures aggressively insisted not on tolerance and kindness, but on absolute intellectual and moral acceptance and support of homosexuality (married or not). The societal pressures are now heavily directed towards thoughtcrime enforcement ---- you have to not only treat people in a Christian manner (with dignity, kindness, and respect), but you also cannot personally believe that fornication (hetero or homo) is wrong.

I'm in my 18th year of public school teaching (currently German, but I've also taught English and science). Over the last 3-4 years, there has been a massive explosion in students who identify as gay or trans. Most of them actually aren't, they're confused kids being tossed to and fro by the societal pressure --- including the massive glorification and promotion of it in the media (music, film, news, social media platforms, etc.). Many kids end up "figuring it out" over the years, and re-orienting themselves. I've served as a Mormon bishop twice, and I once had a student who was meeting with the missionaries and preparing for baptism. She started identifying as gay, and held hands with her girlfriend in the hall. I got a phone call at a baseball game in Tucson while we were warming up (I coached at the time) from her friend in our congregation who was distraught. In her baptismal interview with the missionary, she had disclosed that she was pregnant. This delayed her baptism so that she and we could ensure that she was repenting and understood and committed to keep the commandments following baptism. This is not a one-off; it happens frequently where supposedly "gay" students then decide that they are "bi," and you find that they tend to prefer the opposite gender . . .

I read an article, and have it somewhere, discussing the extremely high rate of teenage pregnancy and heterosexual sex among gay teenage girls and boys compared to "straight" girls and boys. The rates of promiscuity of all kinds is much higher among gay teens than straight teens (anxiety, depression, and suicide, too --- and while activists insist that this is because of homophobia, this isn't my experience at all. Society is very accepting and supportive of them. I think homosexuality correlates strongly with mental illness struggles, and there is inherent guilt that impacts all areas of life).

I firmly believe that most homosexuality among young people is because many of them are lost souls seeking acceptance, and mirroring the currents and trends pushed in society. I don't think many are actually gay to start with, but "wagon ruts" can be worn into the road through persistent sin, and it can definitely be ingrained. There are also some people who seem to have the proclivity from an early age, too, but I find that the vast majority have experienced abuse, pornography, drugs, etc. or are mimicking social trends.

We once had a youth fireside in our congregation with an "ask anything" Q&A. There were several non-Mormon friends present, and one of them asked why Mormons hate gay people. I asked everyone who had a gay friend or family member to raise their hands, and almost all hands went up. I told them to look around, and that was the answer to the question "**Do** Mormons hate gay people." What the question was really asking was "Why do Mormons teach that homosexuality is a sin, and why do they teach that all unrepented sin will bring unhappiness now and in the hereafter." That was the real question, and it's important that Christians of all kinds make it clear that we don't "hate" sinners, and that teaching the truth does not equal "hate." The best missionary tool all of us have is our own example and interactions, within our own spheres of influence.

To get back to your point that I quoted, yes, the gay agenda (not just gay marriage, but the "de-criminalization" of homosexuality --- and all forms of sexual sin, frankly, within the church) has a big pull among people, and is a challenge within our churches. That's why believers must continue and not shirk their duty to teach the truth.
Excellent post.
User avatar
By Tnobes
Posts
#593595
Purple Haize wrote: January 9th, 2020, 9:23 pm
Tnobes wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:26 pm
Purple Haize wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:01 pm

So will
Pride
Gluttony
Wrath
Envy
Sloth
Lust
Greed
Only difference is that absolutely nobody says pride, gluttony, wrath, envy, sloth, lust, or greed are good things to be celebrated. Someone once said that the church hasn't been as tough on divorce as they have been on Homosexuality, however in a divorce everyone acknowledges that it's a sad situation and nobody celebrates it, affirming churches are celebrating homosexuality and that is the important difference in the argument.
Have you seen some of the church buildings? Salaries of Pastors? Greed and Pride are certainly celebrated
Sloth ? Try getting someone to start or help with a Ministry
Gluttony? One of my favorite lines from Sr was “You’ll hear me speak out on homosexuality, but you won’t hear me speak out much on Gluttony” as he rubbed his belly. Made me laugh. Loved that guy
Wrath? Seems a lot of people are ready to condemn people to Hell at the drop of a hat

Then lets have fun with your body being the Temple of God and how you interpret that. So without knowing it, lots of churches are affirming some of those Seven and not even realizing it
You didn't give any examples of those sins being "celebrated" or affirmed in the church, people doing sinful things and not realizing it or maybe not being called out on it as they should is a far cry from saying "this is who I am and nothing is wrong with my behavior"
User avatar
By Tnobes
Posts
#593596
stokesjokes wrote: January 9th, 2020, 11:35 pm Right, even when I was more firm in my convictions about homosexual behavior being a sin, I had to view most marriage as outside of my jurisdiction anyway. The government recognizes Muslim marriages, Hindu marriages, atheist marriages, marriages by a justice of the peace, etc., what business is it of mine to say how those other groups should define marriage?

The best answer is to disentangle marriage from anything involving the state, IMO.
The only person who defines marriage is God, and he defined it in Genesis.
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By Class of 20Something
Posts
#593600
I'd say in high school I still treated homosexuals as someone to stay away from not as an opportunity to let God do God things though me. But I was only 18 then. I didn't understand truly that my testosterone laden lust was EXACTLY the same sin in God's eye. The differentiation between calling someone a "fag" being wrong because it should be embraced(worldly) versus wrong because that isn't showing Love(Holy) was so hard to peel apart.

I still struggle to equate my own sin with that of a rapist or a murderer. But that's just my sin nature telling me that it's not THAT bad. And that is the devils greatest deceit. Casual sin.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#593605
Tnobes wrote: January 10th, 2020, 2:04 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:53 pm
ATrain wrote: January 9th, 2020, 6:12 pm The theology of it has been hashed out before on this board: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12942
I was so scared 2009 me was going to say something stupid in that thread.
Hopefully 2009 us and 2020 us view issues the same, if we get our foundation from the Bible it should never change
Man I hope we change. I’m glad I’m not the same person I was 15 or 20 years ago. I’m glad I’ve become more loving and steadfast in my walk with Christ. I’m glad I’ve put childish things behind me like Paul admonished is to do.
By rtb72
Posts
#593607
Tnobes wrote: January 10th, 2020, 1:54 pm
Purple Haize wrote: January 9th, 2020, 9:23 pm
Tnobes wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:26 pm

Only difference is that absolutely nobody says pride, gluttony, wrath, envy, sloth, lust, or greed are good things to be celebrated. Someone once said that the church hasn't been as tough on divorce as they have been on Homosexuality, however in a divorce everyone acknowledges that it's a sad situation and nobody celebrates it, affirming churches are celebrating homosexuality and that is the important difference in the argument.
Have you seen some of the church buildings? Salaries of Pastors? Greed and Pride are certainly celebrated
Sloth ? Try getting someone to start or help with a Ministry
Gluttony? One of my favorite lines from Sr was “You’ll hear me speak out on homosexuality, but you won’t hear me speak out much on Gluttony” as he rubbed his belly. Made me laugh. Loved that guy
Wrath? Seems a lot of people are ready to condemn people to Hell at the drop of a hat

Then lets have fun with your body being the Temple of God and how you interpret that. So without knowing it, lots of churches are affirming some of those Seven and not even realizing it
You didn't give any examples of those sins being "celebrated" or affirmed in the church, people doing sinful things and not realizing it or maybe not being called out on it as they should is a far cry from saying "this is who I am and nothing is wrong with my behavior"
Maybe it's just me....but have you ever listened to some of Joel Osteen's sermons?
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By chris leedlelee
Posts
#593614
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 3:25 pm Man I hope we change. I’m glad I’m not the same person I was 15 or 20 years ago. I’m glad I’ve become more loving and steadfast in my walk with Christ. I’m glad I’ve put childish things behind me like Paul admonished is to do.
I think his point was that our Christian convictions should remain steadfast despite the fluctuations of our cultural standards. After many years, I would hope that my Christian convictions will be more reasoned and thought out than before, but still the same unless Biblical evidence is given to the contrary.
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By Tnobes
Posts
#593615
Class of 20Something wrote: January 9th, 2020, 11:04 pm Is an alcoholic not an alcoholic of they've never had a drink? Of course they are. They have no way of knowing, but the predisposition and the temptation can still be there. Implying that every man is hetero until they have a homosexual act then are stuck there is just ignorant(word used for lack of knowledge not as a person incapable of thought). Have you never met someone that is SSA but hasn't ever acted on it?
I have. I know many and zero of them would identify as homosexual. homosexuality is an activity, not an identity
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By Tnobes
Posts
#593616
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 3:25 pm
Tnobes wrote: January 10th, 2020, 2:04 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: January 9th, 2020, 8:53 pm

I was so scared 2009 me was going to say something stupid in that thread.
Hopefully 2009 us and 2020 us view issues the same, if we get our foundation from the Bible it should never change
Man I hope we change. I’m glad I’m not the same person I was 15 or 20 years ago. I’m glad I’ve become more loving and steadfast in my walk with Christ. I’m glad I’ve put childish things behind me like Paul admonished is to do.
Totally irrelevant to what I said. But ok. I said how we view issues. Murder for example was wrong in 2009 and in 2020.
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By Tnobes
Posts
#593617
chris leedlelee wrote: January 10th, 2020, 4:49 pm
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 3:25 pm Man I hope we change. I’m glad I’m not the same person I was 15 or 20 years ago. I’m glad I’ve become more loving and steadfast in my walk with Christ. I’m glad I’ve put childish things behind me like Paul admonished is to do.
I think his point was that our Christian convictions should remain steadfast despite the fluctuations of our cultural standards. After many years, I would hope that my Christian convictions will be more reasoned and thought out than before, but still the same unless Biblical evidence is given to the contrary.
Exactly what I said. Thanks for restating it
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#593618
chris leedlelee wrote: January 10th, 2020, 4:49 pm
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 3:25 pm Man I hope we change. I’m glad I’m not the same person I was 15 or 20 years ago. I’m glad I’ve become more loving and steadfast in my walk with Christ. I’m glad I’ve put childish things behind me like Paul admonished is to do.
I think his point was that our Christian convictions should remain steadfast despite the fluctuations of our cultural standards. After many years, I would hope that my Christian convictions will be more reasoned and thought out than before, but still the same unless Biblical evidence is given to the contrary.
Then he or she needs to do a better job explaining. I know Christians who thought killing was wrong but had a change of heart and vice versa. I’m sure we all know the story of Sergeant York.
People used to think remarriages equaled adultery. Yet are now married to someone who was divorced.
So if you are against killing and can change or adultery and can change...... maybe it’s not as black and white as put forth.
Otherwise we would be holding Wednesday night services cutting off people’s arms and out eyes for leading them into sin :D
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By Rubicon
Posts
#593621
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 12:04 pm @Rubicon I’ve worked with HS kids for over 25 years and you are spot on. I would say I saw it start about 10 years ago but it’s really hit full stride now.
Agreed, and "hitting its stride" is a good way to put it. The girl I mentioned was around 2008-2009, but it wasn't as common then. It's very common now, and frustratingly, among kids who aren't really gay or trans. The agenda and social change has been effective at making it a) cool in some quarters, and b) an instant acceptance network for lost soul-types looking for an instant acceptance group.

One of my students (whom I had for German 1 twice, but not because he failed. He wanted to perfect his skills by taking first year over) is now dating a girl who notoriously identified as a boy for years. It's really easy with "gender fluidity" to simply turn it on and off like a switch, according to whim. That makes the caricatures and jokes about "identifying" as a girl for one day and then going back not that much of a caricature. Kids actually do that in very short time spans (not a single day, but still, very short, for something that is supposed to be an intrinsic and immutable part of their identity). The cop-out is that they are now "bisexual," so that there is supposedly no inconsistency either way, but self-identified bisexual students almost always simply date or otherwise with the opposite sex, for the most part, in my experience. It makes it seem mostly play-acting and pretending.
“Trans” is the big one now. It seems like it’s no longer ok to tell girls that it’s ok to play sports, wear pants and not want to play with dolls and still be a girl. That wanting those thing doesn’t make you a boy. Conversely if I guy likes art over athletics and theater over hunting and baking over shooting that doesn’t make him a girl. Somewhere along the way we lost that middle ground.
Not only that, but it's not only when there are manly girls or effeminate boys (or kids whose interests are opposite of traditional interests). It's increasingly kids who suddenly identify as "trans" who show no signs of being trans. They start playing the part through dress, hairstyles, cosmetics, etc., but it really seems like they are play-acting. I've been really lucky --- I live in a pretty conservative area, and I haven't had issues with using their actual pronouns. I do call kids by whatever name they want to go by, but I'm not going to call a girl "he" or a boy "she."

The numbers of self-identifying gay and trans youth are **way** out of proportion with society at large (they are really, really high), and even what the gay community claims is the percentage of the general population. This, to me, indicates that it is solely a social phenomenon, and not a biological one. It's completely social, and like suicide contagion, the meme (Christopher Hitchens' actual coined concept, not pictures of Baby Yoda with captions) of homosexuality contagion spreads among youth and in society due to psychological, sociological, and satanic-influence reasons. It is a social phenomenon.
By Rubicon
Posts
#593622
One interesting question I've had, and have been able to ask many gay people, is this: Given the principles of organic evolution --- specifically, species becoming other very different species over time --- how is it that homosexuality still exists? If there was one thing that by definition doesn't have any survival value (in fact, the exact opposite), that would be it. I've been told that even homosexuals can have offspring and pass on their genes, but even though it does happen, if there is a genetic cause for it, over generations that gene should be eradicated because they would be far less likely to procreate and pass on that gene. By definition, it seems to be exactly the sort of thing the process of evolution is supposed to weed out; yet, it's been an omnipresent part of society throughout history. I've quipped that the Venn Diagram of believers in evolution and believers that homosexual tendencies are inborn, immutable, biological traits is really just one circle (to the chagrin of people who disagree with me), but I've never had a good explanation for its continued existence after umpteen millions of years by believers in organic evolution.

The best attempt was that it's nature's way of curbing population growth. Allegedly, mothers who have three sons are highly likely to have a womb-induced gay son after that because of hormonal irregularities in the developing baby (because, having had so many sons already, her contribution to gender distribution in the population is excessively high --- thus, subsequent boys need to be effectively "neutered," so as not to compete for sexual partners in the population). I don't agree with it, and don't think there's any evidence at all for it, but it was a unique and novel explanation I had never heard before.
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By Tnobes
Posts
#593748
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 5:19 pm
chris leedlelee wrote: January 10th, 2020, 4:49 pm
Purple Haize wrote: January 10th, 2020, 3:25 pm Man I hope we change. I’m glad I’m not the same person I was 15 or 20 years ago. I’m glad I’ve become more loving and steadfast in my walk with Christ. I’m glad I’ve put childish things behind me like Paul admonished is to do.
I think his point was that our Christian convictions should remain steadfast despite the fluctuations of our cultural standards. After many years, I would hope that my Christian convictions will be more reasoned and thought out than before, but still the same unless Biblical evidence is given to the contrary.
Then he or she needs to do a better job explaining. I know Christians who thought killing was wrong but had a change of heart and vice versa. I’m sure we all know the story of Sergeant York.
People used to think remarriages equaled adultery. Yet are now married to someone who was divorced.
So if you are against killing and can change or adultery and can change...... maybe it’s not as black and white as put forth.
Otherwise we would be holding Wednesday night services cutting off people’s arms and out eyes for leading them into sin :D
Wow, a person who is commiting adultery suddenly thinks adultery is not wrong? Who would expect that? Do you listen to yourself? It doesn't matter what a "Christian" thinks about something, it matters what the Bible says about something. The Bible is very black and white on issues, sinful nature makes people confused about it because they want to justify their behavior
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#593749
I listen to myself I’m just not sure if you actually read before you jump to conclusions. Let me rephrase to help explain
I’ve known people who thought getting a divorce and then remarrying was committing adultery. Further, I’ve known people who have thought marrying someone who was divorced (even though they themselves were not) would be committing adultery. I then went on to state that people in those very groups have also read Scripture and changed their minds on what it says and now feel differently. They now don’t see those things as adultery or sinful as described in the Bible.
My first point was about killing people. I referenced Sgt York as an example. He went from a devout religious pacifist to quite a proficient killer based on his readings of the Bible. Conversely I have friends who have been in the Military and refuse to pick up a weapon for any reason now due to their readings of the Bible
Christianity and the exercise of and implementation of Gods Word is not monolithic down the line.
Last edited by Purple Haize on January 13th, 2020, 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#593752
Purple Haize wrote: January 13th, 2020, 12:58 pm I listen to myself I’m just not sure if you actually read before you jump to conclusions. Let me rephrase to help explain
I’ve known people who thought getting a divorce and then remarrying was committing adultery. Further, I’ve known people who have thought marrying someone who was divorced (even though they themselves were not) would be committing adultery. I then went on to state that people in those very groups have also read Scripture and changed their minds on what it says and now feel differently. They now don’t see those things as adultery or sinful as described in the Bible.
My first point was about killing people. I referenced Sgt York as an example. He went from a devout religious pacifist to quite to proficient killer based on his readings of the Bible. Conversely I have friends who have been in the Military and refuse to pick up a weapon for any reason now due to their readings of the Bible
Christianity and the exercise of and implementation of Gods Word is not monolithic down the line.
Lest we forget, the Church's own understanding and application of the Bible has changed over time as well.
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#593753
My views on capital punishment have greatly changed over the last 11 years based on my understanding of scripture and my view of the gospel.

My views on the unborn and abortion have stayed the same but I've changed opinions on methodology quite a bit in that time.

If we believe the Bible is a living and breathing book, it should also be assumed that it will change us as we spend more time with it.
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