A Sea Of Red

I know that this could potentially get messy but let's try to stay respectful. The current climate has seen a lot of Christian leaders get involved in partisan politics. My question is, is that ok? I am not talking about private citizens, I am talking about those in ministry.

I have thought about this a lot lately and I think Christian leaders (liberal and conservatives) have put partisan politics ahead of their ministry. This has been brought to light with the current Christianity Today controversy.

I believe Billy Graham would be unhappy with CT, not because of their rebuke of Trump but getting involved in partisan politics to begein with. I had remembered a quote from Graham stating one of his biggest regrets was getting too deeply involved with politics. Then I found this post from one of his grandkids



I wish evangelist and pastors would stop taking such a partisan view on politics and would preach the word. It has always sat wrong with me.

What are your thoughts? Be nice

Is it possible to be completely bipartisan when involved with politics? If so, how?

I believe we have to answer that first, or else the only options are to be involved or not at all.

I think we have elevated our political identity over our Biblical identity. We are American Christians instead of Christian Americans. We look at people as Liberals or Conservatives instead of viewing everything first through the lens of the Gospel. It's damaging our relationships and our reputation.

The Gospel doesn't fit in one political party. It's bigger than both of them. When we identify so heavily with our political beliefs, we put the party's agenda ahead of what Jesus has called us to do. Instead of having Gospel centered conversations about how to tackle the issues in front of us as a country, we're having political discussions and using cherry picked Bible verses to justify what our political party has determined the answer should be.

JK37 wrote:Is it possible to be completely bipartisan when involved with politics? If so, how?

I believe we have to answer that first, or else the only options are to be involved or not at all.

Obviously our religious beliefs will touch on political issues. I just have always felt uneasy when ministry leaders make it clear what political candidate or party they support. Without meaning to (and some do mean do), they are telling their congregation that one candidate and/or a particular party is more "christian" than the other. Is it a Pastor's responsibility to do that?

It is certainly a delicate balance because we have convictions we hold strong to within our faith but at the same time our worldview dictates that we live for something much greater than what this earth has to offer.

I appreciate it when Christian leaders approach issues with a Biblical Christian Worldview take rather than approaching partisan politics as if God cares whether someone has an R or D next to their name.

There is big danger when people assume that everything that an R does is Christian and everyone that a D does is not and vice versa. No one was a monopoly on Christian values and morality outside of Christ.

Of course, the tough part is that, eventually, we all have to put a check box next to someone's name and that puts us into the situations we've gotten ourselves in.

Personally, for me, I've chosen to focus on my community. I feel like I can make much more change these days in my local community than I can with a vote. It's one of the reasons I chose to go from managing a team of employees all around the country at Apple to teaching high school. Approaching issues from a critical thinking perspective and a solid worldview is more valuable than repeating something because it's what we read or heard.

My first issue are those that would slam Christianity every other day of the week but cherry pick days to point out how “unchristian” position A is because “famous Christian person” says so. This CT thing being the latest. Therein lies a lot of the problems IMO. I’m a fan of voting for the person who either supports the values I hold or at least is not opposed to them.
Christ was apolitical. His followers however, didn’t really have an opportunity to to vote for a new Caesar every 4 years. Or Governor. Further, the Kingdom of Heaven is a Monarchy. A Benevolent Dictatorship. There’s no way to imitate that in a Government system here on Earth. So I’m not really sure there’s a real Biblical blue print to follow

Most, if not all liberal democrats are non Christian, and do not abide by the Bible.

I agree with you for the most part @Purple Haize but it actually think it bothers me more when processed Christians take scripture and twist it to fit whatever political ideology they are embracing. We saw it in the CT opinion piece, we see it with publications like Relevant Magazine and we see it from right wing conservatives that continously justify poor behavior by bringing up some twisted interpretation of "rendering onto Ceasar's what it Ceasar's ". How does this stuff continue to happen? In my opinion it is because we continue to see scripture twisted from the pulpit.

It's an odd place we are at in this history of the American church.

thepostman wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2019, 4:41 pm I agree with you for the most part @Purple Haize but it actually think it bothers me more when processed Christians take scripture and twist it to fit whatever political ideology they are embracing. We saw it in the CT opinion piece, we see it with publications like Relevant Magazine and we see it from right wing conservatives that continously justify poor behavior by bringing up some twisted interpretation of "rendering onto Ceasar's what it Ceasar's ". How does this stuff continue to happen? In my opinion it is because we continue to see scripture twisted from the pulpit.

It's an odd place we are at in this history of the American church.

I’ll take that conversation because at least we are theoretically on the same page. We theoretically have the same starting point. So when someone says “Trump is the next King David we can delve into Scripture and say “is he really? Or is he more like ....”. When non Christians use it there is no mutual frame of reference. They are just playing gotcha. And it’s starting to seep into Evangelicals v Liberal Christians as well.
Again, as I previously stated, my Faith and walk is not influenced by who is in the WH. Telling someone to step down or take over in “the name of God” just doesn’t sit well with me

@Purple Haize

What role do you think pastors and Christian leaders have in the political process though?

thepostman wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2019, 1:27 pm

JK37 wrote:Is it possible to be completely bipartisan when involved with politics? If so, how?

I believe we have to answer that first, or else the only options are to be involved or not at all.

Obviously our religious beliefs will touch on political issues. I just have always felt uneasy when ministry leaders make it clear what political candidate or party they support. Without meaning to (and some do mean do), they are telling their congregation that one candidate and/or a particular party is more "christian" than the other. Is it a Pastor's responsibility to do that?

It is certainly a delicate balance because we have convictions we hold strong to within our faith but at the same time our worldview dictates that we live for something much greater than what this earth has to offer.

I agree, especially those Mt Zion Baptist church types.

Jonathan Carone wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2019, 8:29 pm @Purple Haize

What role do you think pastors and Christian leaders have in the political process though?

Very limited. I liked what Jerry Sr did in the beginning. The “Moral Majority’ empowered a lot of Christians to get involved in the political process. Showing them that they could be a powerful force if they voted for people who shared their agenda was earth shattering.
But like everything else it’s the Revolution after the Revolution you have to worry about. Cal Thomas wrote a great book on it Blinded By Might.
Further I think you have to separate Pastors from Christian Leaders. Junior is a Christian Leader. Jonathon is a Pastor. I put more stock in what the Pastor of my Church says than a Christian Leader because my Pastor is the shepherd of the flock I’m a part of. It took me a minute to get to that point in my life. But I’m much happier now and have found a nice balance in my Spiritual Life. I mean we can go issue by issue as you want but again, who is in the WH doesn’t influence my walk with God. But I will vote for people to run my secular government who are at least not hostile towards my Spiritual beliefs. And I think that’s a good road for Pastors to take

I definitely think that's a fair approach.

I think one of the traps we've fallen into in elevating the Christian Leaders is they get so far above their Christian organization that they no longer have the accountability to stand by the Christian part in Christian Leader. Jerry said his faith plays "no part" in his politics, but yet he's still elevated as a Christian Leader and spokesman for Evangelicals.

Other "Evangelical Leaders" haven't held a position in a Christian organization in decades (or ever) yet still speaks for those of faith. The only thing "Evangelical" about them is they claim Christ when it's convenient but have no track record of doing things for or with the Church. I literally just googled "Evangelical Leader" and the people mentioned in the first three articles have absolutely no experience in a church, ministry, or theological position. They are simply politicians or lobbyists who claim to be Christians.

Those types of people - wolves in sheep's clothing - are what has made this entire thing so incredibly messy. Their goal is their politics, not their beliefs.

Jonathan Carone wrote: ↑December 23rd, 2019, 10:32 pm I definitely think that's a fair approach.

I think one of the traps we've fallen into in elevating the Christian Leaders is they get so far above their Christian organization that they no longer have the accountability to stand by the Christian part in Christian Leader. Jerry said his faith plays "no part" in his politics, but yet he's still elevated as a Christian Leader and spokesman for Evangelicals.

Other "Evangelical Leaders" haven't held a position in a Christian organization in decades (or ever) yet still speaks for those of faith. The only thing "Evangelical" about them is they claim Christ when it's convenient but have no track record of doing things for or with the Church. I literally just googled "Evangelical Leader" and the people mentioned in the first three articles have absolutely no experience in a church, ministry, or theological position. They are simply politicians or lobbyists who claim to be Christians.

Those types of people - wolves in sheep's clothing - are what has made this entire thing so incredibly messy. Their goal is their politics, not their beliefs.

I would go further in whom I’d think are not Christian leaders than you would. I think the age of National Christian Leader might be over. Which is why I’m a fan of deferring to your local pastor.

America needs a Pastor to stand up and be a National Christian Leader. A Bible preaching, "Fire & Brimstone" preaching Pastor.

Do you think the culture today would even listen to a fire and brimstone type of preacher? The message shouldn't change but the way it is presented has to change to reach the culture. This is why if you travel around the world you will see churches much different than they are here but the message is solid but in different cultures the presentation will be different.

There are still fire and brimstone preachers out there ballcoach. But you would have to leave Thomas Road to find them.

I think it is important to remember that pastors, those in ministry, etc... still also get to be private citizens with their own viewpoints. It does concern me when they use their platforms to express their viewpoints as private citizens, especially unsolicited viewpoints.

ballcoach15 wrote: ↑December 24th, 2019, 11:46 am America needs a Pastor to stand up and be a National Christian Leader. A Bible preaching, "Fire & Brimstone" preaching Pastor.

No. It doesn’t. We are not Catholics. We don’t follow edicts from a Pope. Which is what too often happens with proclamations from “National Christian Leaders”. It’s hard to be kind to our neighbor when we are not focused on our neighborhood but instead on some “National Christian Leader” from Dallas or Nashville or Bonita Springs.
Not everyone needs fire and brimstone. Certainly a soldier back from deployment doesn’t need reminded about what Hell could look like. The widow or divorced couple need Christ’s love not retribution. And your neighbor needs you to point them to Christ. Not point them to the latest “National Christian Leader”

ballcoach15 wrote: ↑December 24th, 2019, 11:46 am America needs a Pastor to stand up and be a National Christian Leader. A Bible preaching, "Fire & Brimstone" preaching Pastor.

That presentation would reach you. It may not reach others. Do you need reaching? Or others?

Not crazy about "religion", a "relationship" is much better.
Politics is politics.
Neither should be a "forbidden topic" in a free society.
Vote your conscience.

TH Spangler wrote: ↑December 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm Not crazy about "religion", a "relationship" is much better.
Politics is politics.
Neither should be a "forbidden topic" in a free society.
Vote your conscience.

Agreed!

ATrain wrote: ↑December 24th, 2019, 2:04 pm

TH Spangler wrote: ↑December 24th, 2019, 1:32 pm Not crazy about "religion", a "relationship" is much better.
Politics is politics.
Neither should be a "forbidden topic" in a free society.
Vote your conscience.

Agreed!

Who needs religion? A relationship with God through Christ is where it's at.

As far as politics, God puts up our leaders and takes them down. None are there by mistake.

Too many Pastors today just teach a Sunday School Class from pulpit, rather than preach to lost sheep.

More on this topic later.

How many churches do you go to that helps you determine this conclusion? I'm sure this is true of some churches but most churches I have attended preach the word and do it in a way the feel lead by the spirit to do so

I'll use TRBC as a great example since that is where you attend. Jonathan's style is significantly different than his father's style. He still preaches the word and reaches people.

American Christians are blessed with so many different kinds of churches. Are there some that don't preach the word? Of course but this idea you have ballcoach is one that is grounded in reality.

ballcoach15 wrote: ↑December 24th, 2019, 3:18 pm Too many Pastors today just teach a Sunday School Class from pulpit, rather than preach to lost sheep.

More on this topic later.

Like Thomas Road?