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By Purple Haize
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#601979
Jonathan Carone wrote: June 11th, 2020, 12:53 pm As for “Especially when no one has any idea what he’s going to say or have on stage with him.” - we’ve had Trump around for four years. His track record doesn’t earn him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
You have a track record of not giving many people the benefit of the doubt. And I’m 100% sure no matter what he says you will be aghast
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By Jonathan Carone
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#601985
Outrage implies an extreme reaction of anger, shock, or indignation.

I don’t have a right to be angry in this situation. It doesn’t impact my life at all. I think it’s insensitive and typical of this president, but I’m nowhere near even upset about it.

I’m absolutely not shocked by it.

At best there’s some indignation there but it’s nowhere near outrage. I legitimately laughed out loud when I read the news. It’s so typical of him.
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By Jonathan Carone
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#601987
Purple Haize wrote: June 11th, 2020, 12:56 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: June 11th, 2020, 12:53 pm As for “Especially when no one has any idea what he’s going to say or have on stage with him.” - we’ve had Trump around for four years. His track record doesn’t earn him the benefit of the doubt on this one.
You have a track record of not giving many people the benefit of the doubt. And I’m 100% sure no matter what he says you will be aghast
You’ve gotten really good at using words in ways that don’t fit their definition for dramatic effect. There will be no horror or shock in my reaction to anything Trump says. At this point my expectations are so low for him that nothing will shock me. Therefore I will not be aghast nor will I be outraged.
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By Purple Haize
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#601990
Classic Dad rebuttal. I’m not upset. Just disappointed.
Your last two posts have backed of the insensitive and tone deaf comments of your original post. Yet you come at me saying I misuse words and definitions. Nice play. I applaud the attempt at martyrdom.
If you hate Trump and he disgusts you that’s fine. Start from there. Don’t act like there is some possibility that the view will ever change. If his rally in Tulsa won’t effect you or make you upset why bring it up? Unless that’s not a true statement
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By Jonathan Carone
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#601992
For the record - I didn't back off insensitive and tone deaf at all. I still feel they are both of those things. You tend to read a lot of subtext into what I post when there isn't any. If you took my words straight forward for what I say, I think you'd understand me a lot better. 15 years around this place should show I don't couch my feelings.

Again - hate and disgust are dramatic words. It's like with Jerry - at this point they are who they are and I don't expect things to change. It doesn't disgust me and I don't hate them. I just prefer a different way.

I don't think you're disgusted by how James Harden plays basketball. You dislike it and think there's a better way, but you also don't think Harden will ever change. It's the exact same feeling.
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By Purple Haize
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#601993
You really have to work on your comparisons. This one isn’t as bad as your Punctuation one but it’s right there. Talk about false equivalency
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By Class of 20Something
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#601996
What would have to happen in Tulsa for Trump to get credit?

Tour black Wall Street with a black historian? Ask genuine questions about life then? Ask how those events are still causing division today?

What if he let the historian have podium time and told his base to shut up and listen?

I'm not saying those things will happen. But if they did, wouldn't they just denounce it as a photo op?

I think Trump needs to clearly listen for a bit, but I think the black community needs to recognize how high labor participation was beneficial too. Both need to happen. How about a conversation about how illegal immigration will disproportionately effect black jobs?

Do we bridge the gap from slavery by holding white people back or by helping black people up? There has to be an end to the assistance at some point or it swings in the other direction. Can we have honest discussions about ending assistance?
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By Jonathan Carone
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#601998
Class of 20Something wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:51 pm Can we have honest discussions about ending assistance?
I don't think that conversation can happen until some of the systemic issues still feeding the need for that assistance are addressed.
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By Jonathan Carone
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#602006
Here's one we can all agree on where cancel culture and anti-Trump went waaaay too far:
The Birmingham Board of Education voted Tuesday night to end its leases with the Church of the Highlands after controversy over social media activity by Pastor Chris Hodges.

The church paid an average of $12,000 a month each to rent Parker High School and Woodlawn High School for Sunday worship services, a total of $288,000 per year. Since 2014, the church has paid Birmingham City Schools about $817,000 to use its facilities.
https://www.al.com/news/2020/06/birming ... sting.html

They canceled the leases because Chris Hodges dared like tweets from Charlie Kirk that supported Trump. An English teacher compiled a list of political tweets he liked and presented them to the school board. The school board then canceled the leases.

A church that is 1/3 minority, who financially supports these schools outside of their leases, and who has held numerous free medical clinics has their leases canceled because the leader supported conservative politics.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#602008
Agreed. On a practical matter where are they gonna make up that budget shortfall?
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#602009
Jonathan Carone wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm
Class of 20Something wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:51 pm Can we have honest discussions about ending assistance?
I don't think that conversation can happen until some of the systemic issues still feeding the need for that assistance are addressed.
Everything I read from David French is always on point. He speaks to this very clearly. https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/a ... ot-so-very
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#602011
stokesjokes wrote: June 11th, 2020, 3:32 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm
Class of 20Something wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:51 pm Can we have honest discussions about ending assistance?
I don't think that conversation can happen until some of the systemic issues still feeding the need for that assistance are addressed.
Everything I read from David French is always on point. He speaks to this very clearly. https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/a ... ot-so-very
I’m not a big French fan but he hit on the hugest overlooked part of the entire debate. And it certainly changed my perception several years ago.


“ You’re less likely to remember that there was a second Ferguson report, one that found Ferguson’s police department was focused on raising revenue more than increasing public safety, and it used its poor, disproportionately black citizens as virtual ATMs, raising money through traffic stops, citations, and even arrest warrants. It painted a shocking picture of abuse of power. ”

This is the type of stuff that doesn’t make headlines. It happens all the time to everyone but more so in minority communities. This is what I see and understand and wish people would rally against instead of dubious cases like Brown in Ferguson
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By Jonathan Carone
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#602012
stokesjokes wrote: June 11th, 2020, 3:32 pmEverything I read from David French is always on point. He speaks to this very clearly. https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/p/a ... ot-so-very
Moreover, taking the next steps down that road will have to mean shedding our partisan baggage. It means acknowledging and understanding that the person who is wrong on abortion and health care may be right about police brutality. It means being less outraged at a knee on football turf than at a knee on a man’s neck. And it means declaring that even though we may not agree on everything about race and American life, we can agree on some things, and we can unite where we agree.
This is such a great paragraph. Especially that second sentence. I see so many conservative Christians who won't even consider someone's politics because they're wrong on abortion, even if they're spot on with many other policies. The left obviously has their own problems, but since I'm surrounded by conservative Christians more often, that's what I notice.
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By Class of 20Something
Posts
#602059
Jonathan Carone wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:54 pm
Class of 20Something wrote: June 11th, 2020, 1:51 pm Can we have honest discussions about ending assistance?
I don't think that conversation can happen until some of the systemic issues still feeding the need for that assistance are addressed.
I think this is part of the issue on why it can't be addressed properly. If there can't be an honest marker of when have we helped enough, you aren't asking to bridge the gap, you're asking for a perpetual leg up even when it isn't needed.

Who says they can't draft some kind of affirmative action with triggers both sides agree is a marker that the actions had their intended affect? When those triggers occur, the affirmative action legislation ends.

48 months of minority unemployment within 7% of majority unemployment. Meaning if majority unemployment is 4% then minority unemployment has to be 4% plus or minus .28%.

If minority average income is within an agreed percentage to majority.
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By Jonathan Carone
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#602060
Those are all great things, but it doesn’t address the lack of education funding because schools are funded by property taxes. It doesn’t touch on the lending practices that favor white people over black and brown. It sounds insignificant, but access to recreation and activities is significantly lower in black communities.

Jobs absolutely, 100% helps. But there were policies put in place during the Jim Crow era that need true reform before the things you mention can have their full impact.
By olldflame
Registration Days Posts
#602063
Jonathan Carone wrote: June 12th, 2020, 8:44 am Those are all great things, but it doesn’t address the lack of education funding because schools are funded by property taxes. It doesn’t touch on the lending practices that favor white people over black and brown. It sounds insignificant, but access to recreation and activities is significantly lower in black communities.

Jobs absolutely, 100% helps. But there were policies put in place during the Jim Crow era that need true reform before the things you mention can have their full impact.
Sounds like somebody watched the "Systemic Racism Explained" video. Here's another one.
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By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#602064
I believe the black bosses I worked UNDER the last 15, 20 years of my career would find this discussion very annoying

I'm surprised someone hasn't called out a few of you for your generalizations.

I believe what's going on in the streets is political ... driven by the left. I find it hard to believe they would do so much damage to our people to hold to power. Sad.
Last edited by TH Spangler on June 12th, 2020, 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#602066
To get in the weeds a little bit more:

If two people get the same job - one black and one white - paying the exact same amount of money, that's progress. Currently white people make on average 3-7% more than similarly qualified black people. (Source)

However, if those two people saved the exact same amount of money and applied for a loan on the exact same house, the white person is more likely to get the loan approved and is more likely to get the loan at a favorable rate.

The “decades-old credit scoring model” currently used “does not take into account consumer data on rent, utility, and cell phone bill payments,” Republican Sen. Tim Scott of South Carolina wrote in August, when he unveiled a bill to require the federal government to vet credit standards used for residential mortgages. “This exclusion disproportionately hurts African-Americans, Latinos, and young people who are otherwise creditworthy.”
Source

That bill got stuck in committee.

So now our black person who is making as much as the white person doesn't get the house in the good neighborhood. They are left either having to buy a cheaper house in a worse neighborhood or renting somewhere - also likely to be not as affluent as the white person. Because of the way schools are funded from property taxes, the black person's kids have less access to tutoring, after school activities, and their quality of education is lower. Crime in the area is likely to be higher as well.

According to a study from the National Bureau of Economic Research, a "20 percent increase in per-pupil spending a year for poor children can lead to an additional year of completed education, 25 percent higher earnings, and a 20-percentage point reduction in the incidence of poverty in adulthood."

Along with the lower quality education, the black kids now also have less access to recreational sports at the youth level. Also, unlike the white kids in the better neighborhood, the black kids' schools are more likely to charge for sports. Not only does this lead to more free time, less structure, and less disciple, but there are health impacts too:

"The research shows physically active kids are less likely to be obese, more likely to get a college degree, less likely to suffer chronic illnesses including cancer and more likely to be active as adults, and twice as likely to have active children," he said. "Everyone will pay price if we don't get them off the couch."
The next logical step would before the black person to vote for new representatives who will enact better policies. The problem is, access to voting for the black person - who makes the same amount of money in the same job as the white person - is less. He likely has to go to longer lengths to actually vote.

In a new study led by economist Keith Chen of the University of California, Los Angeles, researchers matched anonymous location data from 10 million smartphones to 93,000 polling places to create the most extensive map to date of voter wait times across the U.S. The results, reported in a preprint paper posted on arXiv.org on August 30, showed one very clear disparity: voters in predominantly black neighborhoods waited 29 percent longer, on average, than those in white neighborhoods. They were also about 74 percent more likely to wait for more than half an hour.
Source

It should be noted here that the Presidential Commission on Election Administration declared in 2014 that "no citizen should have to wait more than 30 minutes to vote." (Source)

So while I agree the things you're talking about can bridge the gap, I believe they're merely bandaids that will help stop the bleeding but not cure the infection. We have to go after the deeper, systemic issues before those suggested policies will have the last impacting they should.

(Edits: Formatting)
By stokesjokes
Registration Days Posts
#602075
Your last post is just you saying you've had black bosses. That's anecdotal and not substantive. Jon's post includes actual researched data. You seem to be confusing population-level data with generalizations. A high school research class would tell you to dismiss your anecdotal evidence and go with the actual research.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#602077
Class of 20Something wrote: June 12th, 2020, 8:59 am and this is why the conversation never freaking comes to anything tangible. No one can take yes for an answer.
When people can’t agree that graduating high school and not having a kid while IN high school are success indicators, let alone a 2 parent household you are spot on. We have become a society that is beginning to make rules and policy based on the exceptions. And it’s difficult to navigate sometimes
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By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#602078
stokesjokes wrote: June 12th, 2020, 11:01 am Your last post is just you saying you've had black bosses. That's anecdotal and not substantive. Jon's post includes actual researched data. You seem to be confusing population-level data with generalizations. A high school research class would tell you to dismiss your anecdotal evidence and go with the actual research.
If I'm black or brown and successful, which most are, it would irritate the you know what out of me to have white liberals grouping me based on some belief he/she has or some political agenda they're on. My black managers were great to work for. When it comes to the crafts, I would give anything if I had some of the skills my brown friends have learned. I don't like the group think liberals are forcing on everyone. Go to school, don't have children before you finish, work hard and anyone can do well in this country. Just my option.
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By TH Spangler
Registration Days Posts
#602085
If the democrats are on a mission to tear down the world order and America's roll in it we have hard times ahead.

But if they are interested in making things better for everyone they will come back to the table with Trump on DOCA. He had a good offer and they politicized it. Organized, controlled imaginations is the first step to better wages for all. We need immigrants badly, but lets do it right, legally, so they are not an underclass forced to work for substandard wages and benefits. That hurts minority US citizen wages.

Quit offshoring some of our work, which only benefits a handful of Americans. And either ease regulations here or pass laws that penalizes companies that offshore to take advantage of no environmental regs overseas.

Stop currency manipulation, that hurts manufacturing in the US and kills jobs.

Back Senator Scott's enterprise zone legislation. Bring good jobs home and place then in areas where minorities can jump on them without abandoning their communities.
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#602086
TH Spangler wrote: June 12th, 2020, 12:21 pm
stokesjokes wrote: June 12th, 2020, 11:01 am Your last post is just you saying you've had black bosses. That's anecdotal and not substantive. Jon's post includes actual researched data. You seem to be confusing population-level data with generalizations. A high school research class would tell you to dismiss your anecdotal evidence and go with the actual research.
If I'm black or brown and successful, which most are, it would irritate the you know what out of me to have white liberals grouping me based on some belief he/she has or some political agenda they're on. My black managers were great to work for. When it comes to the crafts, I would give anything if I had some of the skills my brown friends have learned. I don't like the group think liberals are forcing on everyone. Go to school, don't have children before you finish, work hard and anyone can do well in this country. Just my option.
Most black and brown people are successful. You're exactly right!

But their success is limited and they have to work harder for it than white people do.That's not fair. As I posted earlier, they get paid less on average. They have harder times getting mortgages. Voting is more difficult for them.

Those three things should not be partisan issues. In fact, in my post earlier, it was a Republican who introduced the bill that would help black and brown people have more access to mortgages.

We can disagree on education funding because I know there are layers and layers of nuance there, but the other three issues (equal pay, mortgage lending, and voting) should be things both sides agree on.

You keep making statements implying I think less of black and brown people and I'm trying to give them a hand out to make things better. In actuality, I view them as 100% equals and feel they should be treated as such. Unfortunately, the current systems (that we all inherited from generations before us) don't allow for that.
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