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#549410
flamehunter wrote:
Yacht Rock wrote:
Jonathan Carone wrote:I know it’s not possible, but I’d love to see the default rate for on campus vs online.
I'm sure it's quite a bit higher for online students.
I think this addresses the concern about why it is higher. U of Phoenix's default rate is over 13%. Online education is designed for those who want to fit in college to their already busy lives. Way too many bite off more than they can chew and end up not finishing and subsequently don't ever realize the benefit for the classes they did take. Thus they don't place a high priority on repaying for something they did not benefit from financially or career-wise.
Yeah, but in this case, if Liberty's online default rate is on par with Phoenix or the other for-profits, does that make their online business any more admirable or valuable?

I think it's a legitimate question to ask.
#549426
Jonathan Carone wrote:Because for-profit places are more predatory and just want to bring in students to get the money.
boy would you be surprised sitting in a state college board room.
#549434
Yacht Rock wrote:Yeah, but in this case, if Liberty's online default rate is on par with Phoenix or the other for-profits, does that make their online business any more admirable or valuable?

I think it's a legitimate question to ask.
No it doesn't. We were very early in the game and made hay while we could and continue to do so. I too see it coming to an end unless they find a way to continue to be a trend-setter in the market. So far I don't see that happening - as you noted earlier.
#549437
I'm no fan of state schools but when you look at the most recent numbers (2014), here is what it looks like for 4+ year schools.

Public default rate - 7.5%
Private default rate - 7.0%
Proprietary default rate - 14.6%

It definitely appears that they are selling something their customers can't afford to buy.
#549438
flamehunter wrote:
Yacht Rock wrote:Yeah, but in this case, if Liberty's online default rate is on par with Phoenix or the other for-profits, does that make their online business any more admirable or valuable?

I think it's a legitimate question to ask.
No it doesn't. We were very early in the game and made hay while we could and continue to do so. I too see it coming to an end unless they find a way to continue to be a trend-setter in the market. So far I don't see that happening - as you noted earlier.
That's the frustrating thing. There is a lot of potential being left on the table by not improving the online product.

Now, there are two things encroaching on LUO's success.

1. Competition from other schools who are putting together a competitive remote learning experience as the stigma of online learning is reduced.
2. Financial Aid bubble burst, reducing the available funds for students to enroll and resulting in lower enrollment.

While two is surely to happen sooner rather than later, there is nothing to stop the school from being competitive for the number one challenge. Even with financial aid drying up, there will still be students interested in distance education. In fact, I'd venture to say that financial aid issues will only increase interest in distance education as it reduces the overall cost of a traditional college experience.
#549442
TH Spangler wrote:When I read an article I always check out the author's work to see if there might be some bias. Just a habit.
https://www.propublica.org/people/alec-macgillis
That doesn't discount (easily verifiable) facts and cited experiences from students.

I had a recent graduate come up to me last night at a community event and state, "I read that article and the whole time I thought, 'I couldn't have painted a better picture myself of what the LUO experience looks like.'"

The author may have biases and his bias may have led him to his research, but there certainly was a lot of truth in what was put to paper.
#549443
I got this text about it earlier today:
This LU article is somewhat sickening in parts because im reading about people having some similar experiences to what I've gone through since I left with LUO.
It's most definitely a hit piece against LUO, but it's a justified hit piece.
#549451
I saw it on Mother Jones as well. You can tell a lot about the publisher by the quotes they choose to highlight. I'm guessing the Washington Post runs it next. I have two friends that took LUO classes. One had an associates in criminal justice and finished his BA or BS and another teaches school in the NC public system, she got her masters.. Both immediately received promotions as a result of their LU degree.
#549452
TH Spangler wrote:I saw it on Mother Jones as well. You can tell a lot about the publisher by the quotes they choose to highlight. I'm guessing the Washington Post runs it next. I have two friends that took LUO classes. One had an associates in criminal justice and finished his BA or BS and another teaches school in the NC public system, she got her masters.. Both immediately received promotions as a result of their LU degree.
I'll see your "friends" and raise you that I've personally taken many LUO classes. The experience isn't great and all the quotes sound very similar to my experiences over the last several years.

How does it compare to other universities? I don't know.

I can say that they don't take advantage of the technology available to make the best use of the distance learning environment.

Compared with residential college courses I've taken, it pales in comparison.

But hey, that's just my #personalexperience. I don't have to check with my friends for that.
#549453
I’ll add that I’m not basing my judgement of my LUO experience on my success in the workplace.

I have a pretty good job as it is and don’t expect or hope to change any time soon.

There are employers who promote and/or give raises to employees who complete a degree regardless of where it’s from and the quality of education they received.
#549464
LUO is very popular in the military world. I have talked to plenty who have taken classes through them. Overall people seemed pleased with what they get but so have some minor complaints. Then again these people have also enrolled in other for profit schools previously so their bar isn't very high.

LUO isn't awful but it's far from breaking any new ground and it hasn't improved in years. That's probably the biggest issue. They seem fine with the status quo
#549481
Any school with a meager endowment is grasping for payee’s these days.

I agree the article is a justified hit piece, but it’s pointed squarely at LU due to the author’s biases, and it plucks only those experiences that are negative. It came across as very one-sided, low-grade journalism to me.

My wife and I both have worked our entire careers on college campuses. We often come home and share stories of those who are disenchanted with the quality of education or service they received - often unjustified. Go to any higher ed institution, and you’ll easily find just as many who are displeased with their experience.

I received my MBA from LUO in 2010. Going in, I harbored no illusion that my relationship with professors would be more than nil. And I was right. No one I know - even LUO reps - painted a picture to me of an online experience that would mirror a residential one. Online enrollees should accept that going in.

And my degree was a challenge. I like to consider myself a reasonably intelligent guy. I got a 1290 SAT score coming out of HS, I have an IQ of approx 127-129. I had a 3.2 GPA in SMGT at Liberty. (SMGT! Talk about a cakewalk residential experience!) It took me three years to complete the requisite 45 credit hours for my MBA from LUO. I was working full-time the entire time I was enrolled, and I got married between my first and second year. I got a 3.9 GPA for my MBA, but it was a challenge. I enjoyed it!! I was done with face-to-face experiences that I felt were a waste of my time. Online education is for those looking to learn on their own and at their own pace. I loved LUO!!!!!

Furthermore, it is simply hard for me to feel sorry for people who don’t take a more assertive role in their own education. The article cited examples of miscommunications and lost assignments. Well, maybe postgraduate work isn’t for you! It’s not for everyone. And no one held you hostage and forced you to enroll. You can’t absolve yourself of the risk you take on when you choose to enroll.
#549492
JK37 wrote:Any school with a meager endowment is grasping for payee’s these days.

I agree the article is a justified hit piece, but it’s pointed squarely at LU due to the author’s biases, and it plucks only those experiences that are negative. It came across as very one-sided, low-grade journalism to me.

My wife and I both have worked our entire careers on college campuses. We often come home and share stories of those who are disenchanted with the quality of education or service they received - often unjustified. Go to any higher ed institution, and you’ll easily find just as many who are displeased with their experience.

I received my MBA from LUO in 2010. Going in, I harbored no illusion that my relationship with professors would be more than nil. And I was right. No one I know - even LUO reps - painted a picture to me of an online experience that would mirror a residential one. Online enrollees should accept that going in.

And my degree was a challenge. I like to consider myself a reasonably intelligent guy. I got a 1290 SAT score coming out of HS, I have an IQ of approx 127-129. I had a 3.2 GPA in SMGT at Liberty. (SMGT! Talk about a cakewalk residential experience!) It took me three years to complete the requisite 45 credit hours for my MBA from LUO. I was working full-time the entire time I was enrolled, and I got married between my first and second year. I got a 3.9 GPA for my MBA, but it was a challenge. I enjoyed it!! I was done with face-to-face experiences that I felt were a waste of my time. Online education is for those looking to learn on their own and at their own pace. I loved LUO!!!!!

Furthermore, it is simply hard for me to feel sorry for people who don’t take a more assertive role in their own education. The article cited examples of miscommunications and lost assignments. Well, maybe postgraduate work isn’t for you! It’s not for everyone. And no one held you hostage and forced you to enroll. You can’t absolve yourself of the risk you take on when you choose to enroll.
Don’t be hatin on SMGT. It used to be a pretty rigorous endeavor
#549501
JK37 wrote:
Yacht Rock wrote:Lol. If you have to explain to people how smart you are...
I don’t. But I was stating it for context. The article painted a picture of low rigor. That was not my experience at all.
Oh, I’m certain that the content certainly challenges some folks.
#549510
I know LUO has been great for many. But there are plenty it’s been absolutely frustrating to. Here’s a story from a former athlete trying to get an MBA:
I can see how people think LUO is taking advantage of federal money because of the catch 22 they have me in. I tried to re-enroll to finish my last course a month ago, the one I've been fighting them on for two years. They actually denied my enrollment on the same grounds they were fighting me on for moving forward with the class. So now I'm just stuck.

A few years ago I dropped under the GPA threshold and was put on academic suspension. They gave me an F in a class I dropped. I didn't realize it until a year little when I picked my studies back up. I got a B in my next to last class, which was perfectly acceptable. When I tried to take the capstone, they said my GPA wouldn't allow me to graduate and I needed to either retake the class or enroll in another class or two to boost the GPA and take a writing assessment class that would serve as an evaluation of my ability to proceed with the degree program.

I decided to try to solve the puzzle and pick it back this year. LUO said too much time had lapsed since I was an active student. I could pick up where I left off, but I had to re-enroll and be accepted. Then they denied me based on GPA because of the result of that earlier class.

The big thing about it is two fold:

One - I dropped the class and I told the professor I was withdrawing. However, they say the professor dropped me from the roster prior to my declaring to them that I intended to drop therefore it's a Fail and not a WD.

Secondly - I changed from a specific 45 hour MBA track to the generic 36 hour track. This class isn't even required for me to finish now. It’s now an extra class on my transcript that they're still counting against my GPA. And I have three other classes that I've taken which don't count now. Thats on me for changing tracks, and I'm ok with that, but it shows I've really done more than required to finish.

But now I can't get anyone to discuss the discrepancy with me because they say I have to be enrolled first. So I can't get past the enrollment wall to discuss with an advisor or higher up that "hey, you guys are punishing me for a class that I don't have to have." Which frankly, may simply solve the problem. And regardless, my GPA is high enough that if they let me re-enroll and take the capstone I'll have a 3.0 when it's all said and done if I get an A in the class. So why keep me from taking it?

I got left with the impression that despite eight years there, nearly two degrees, and tons of money spent that they didn't care at all about me. They just saw another opportunity for $10,000.
It's stories like that one that illustrate the downsides of LUO. In theory, having the online school pay for the residential school and help build up our endowment was a genius plan. However, I feel LUO grew way too big way too quickly. We got blinded by the money it was bringing in and kept expanding and expanding and the support couldn't keep up. That's why it feels predatory at times.

You can get a quality education with LUO, but like stated above, not everyone should be taking post-graduate classes. The way the school is structured and the way it is marketed along with the access to federal money gives people who have no place taking post-grad classes the ability to put themselves in a gigantic financial hole. And for those who want to better themselves but get hit by the normal things life as an adult brings, there's no structure in place to help solve problems.

LUO is not the devil. It has tons of potential to be a really, really good option for a lot of people. It needs to be overhauled though in order to reach the standard we keep for ourselves as a University.
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