A Sea Of Red

Purple Haize wrote:So basically it's all Bush's fault and President Obama did nothing to make the situation worse

Nope.

That was pretty much your entire diatribe Poor President Obama he was given such a bad hand in Iraq that he couldn't do anything. Not being able to negotiate a new SOFA is entirely on him, not W. His actions leading up to and during the negotiations signaled that the Iraqi's could no longer count on our support so they took what they could get.

Purple Haize wrote:That was pretty much your entire diatribe Poor President Obama he was given such a bad hand in Iraq that he couldn't do anything. Not being able to negotiate a new SOFA is entirely on him, not W. His actions leading up to and during the negotiations signaled that the Iraqi's could no longer count on our support so they took what they could get.

When your predecessor signs the deal that says your troops are completely out of the country by a certain date, you have a horrible hand. The Iraqis wouldn't negotiate for a new agreement and refused to ask for assistance until IS was at the gates of Baghdad.

Here are 5 major failures of the current President in the Middle East:

He failed use our international power to pressure other countries to get out of Iraq's affairs during our troop draw-down, specifically Iran. It would have been very difficult as the Iranians was already throughout Iraq, but he completely conceded to the Iran-backed Shia, including their militias which the US is now jointly funding with Iran to fight IS. A perfect example is the case of Abu Azrael.

He has made several critical errors throughout the Arab Spring/Winter, which have severely compounded that ongoing crisis.

Dialogue with the Russians is basically nonexistent, even though we are in very close proximity to each other in the Middle East.

Now that we are engaged with IS, he fails to use proper military force against them. We must act prudently, but there have been very few decisive victories against IS following more than a year of fighting.

The Iran Deal is a disaster.

The difference is you see the SOFA as set in stone. The SOFA should have and was meant to be a starting point to negotiate a new SOFA. Sort of like any contract ever. But it gave President Obama an excuse and justification to pull all troops out. Which is odd since we still have them there. It's just par for the course with this President

What there are troops still in Iraq!!?? Say it ain't so!

thepostman wrote:What there are troops still in Iraq!!?? Say it ain't so!

Shocking I know!

I remember it much the way that Humble described above. Bush was capitulating to Obama and the Democrats' demands at the end of his term, much to the outrage of conservatives at the time.

bluejacket wrote:

Purple Haize wrote:That was pretty much your entire diatribe Poor President Obama he was given such a bad hand in Iraq that he couldn't do anything. Not being able to negotiate a new SOFA is entirely on him, not W. His actions leading up to and during the negotiations signaled that the Iraqi's could no longer count on our support so they took what they could get.

When your predecessor signs the deal that says your troops are completely out of the country by a certain date, you have a horrible hand. The Iraqis wouldn't negotiate for a new agreement and refused to ask for assistance until IS was at the gates of Baghdad.

Here are 5 major failures of the current President in the Middle East:

He failed use our international power to pressure other countries to get out of Iraq's affairs during our troop draw-down, specifically Iran. It would have been very difficult as the Iranians was already throughout Iraq, but he completely conceded to the Iran-backed Shia, including their militias which the US is now jointly funding with Iran to fight IS. A perfect example is the case of Abu Azrael.

He has made several critical errors throughout the Arab Spring/Winter, which have severely compounded that ongoing crisis.

Dialogue with the Russians is basically nonexistent, even though we are in very close proximity to each other in the Middle East.

Now that we are engaged with IS, he fails to use proper military force against them. We must act prudently, but there have been very few decisive victories against IS following more than a year of fighting.

The Iran Deal is a disaster.

I would add several things to this list... The red line in Syria. The overall treatment of Israel. The willingness to arm every questionable faction group except for the one that has proven they are reliable (the Kurds).

Humble_Opinion wrote:

bluejacket wrote:

Purple Haize wrote:That was pretty much your entire diatribe Poor President Obama he was given such a bad hand in Iraq that he couldn't do anything. Not being able to negotiate a new SOFA is entirely on him, not W. His actions leading up to and during the negotiations signaled that the Iraqi's could no longer count on our support so they took what they could get.

When your predecessor signs the deal that says your troops are completely out of the country by a certain date, you have a horrible hand. The Iraqis wouldn't negotiate for a new agreement and refused to ask for assistance until IS was at the gates of Baghdad.

Here are 5 major failures of the current President in the Middle East:

He failed use our international power to pressure other countries to get out of Iraq's affairs during our troop draw-down, specifically Iran. It would have been very difficult as the Iranians was already throughout Iraq, but he completely conceded to the Iran-backed Shia, including their militias which the US is now jointly funding with Iran to fight IS. A perfect example is the case of Abu Azrael.

He has made several critical errors throughout the Arab Spring/Winter, which have severely compounded that ongoing crisis.

Dialogue with the Russians is basically nonexistent, even though we are in very close proximity to each other in the Middle East.

Now that we are engaged with IS, he fails to use proper military force against them. We must act prudently, but there have been very few decisive victories against IS following more than a year of fighting.

The Iran Deal is a disaster.

I would add several things to this list... The red line in Syria. The overall treatment of Israel. The willingness to arm every questionable faction group except for the one that has proven they are reliable (the Kurds).

Ask Turkey about the Kurds...

Purple Haize wrote:The difference is you see the SOFA as set in stone. The SOFA should have and was meant to be a starting point to negotiate a new SOFA. Sort of like any contract ever. But it gave President Obama an excuse and justification to pull all troops out. Which is odd since we still have them there. It's just par for the course with this President

There was basically zero chance of renegotiating another SOFA with the Iraqis. Bush went into the final year of negotiating with the full intent of not having a deadline. But they had to have one in order for the Iraqis to agree to the deal. And all of that happened before the 2008 election.

No kidding we have some troops in Iraq. We have always had CIA, embassy guards, etc. but the "advisers" have been being sent back in during the past year and a half.

Humble_Opinion wrote:I would add several things to this list... The red line in Syria. The overall treatment of Israel. The willingness to arm every questionable faction group except for the one that has proven they are reliable (the Kurds).

Syria is part of the Arab Spring/Winter.

The relationship between Israel-U.S. could certainly be better, but I would not classify it as a failure.

If you are expecting us to openly arm the Kurds, you are going to be waiting until Turkey is completely out of NATO.

bluejacket wrote:

Purple Haize wrote:The difference is you see the SOFA as set in stone. The SOFA should have and was meant to be a starting point to negotiate a new SOFA. Sort of like any contract ever. But it gave President Obama an excuse and justification to pull all troops out. Which is odd since we still have them there. It's just par for the course with this President

There was basically zero chance of renegotiating another SOFA with the Iraqis. Bush went into the final year of negotiating with the full intent of not having a deadline. But they had to have one in order for the Iraqis to agree to the deal. And all of that happened before the 2008 election.

No kidding we have some troops in Iraq. We have always had CIA, embassy guards, etc. but the "advisers" have been being sent back in during the past year and a half.

Yeah. That's where we disagree. There was 0 chance to negotiate a new SOFA with Obama as President. He couldn't negotiate a lazy river He did everything he could to signal that he was t serious about it. He ignored those giving him advice on how to do so. I may have a huge Romney Man Crush but he could have negotiated a new SOFA. W could have as well. Heck, TRUMP could have done it. Granted, there would be hotels and golf courses involved.
But you are right, there was 0 chance Obama could have

Purple Haize wrote:Yeah. That's where we disagree. There was 0 chance to negotiate a new SOFA with Obama as President. He couldn't negotiate a lazy river He did everything he could to signal that he was t serious about it. He ignored those giving him advice on how to do so. I may have a huge Romney Man Crush but he could have negotiated a new SOFA. W could have as well. Heck, TRUMP could have done it. Granted, there would be hotels and golf courses involved.
But you are right, there was 0 chance Obama could have

There was virtually zero chance of a new SOFA, regardless of whether it was McCain, Romney, Bush, Hillary, or Obama. Bush had a strong negotiating position in 2007-08 when the administration was discussing the SOFA. The best he could do was give the Iraqis a guarantee that we were leaving in three years. And he signed it anyway because he knew that it was the best agreement that we could get.

I know that's where we disagree.

The 0i SOFA was signed at a time when Iraq was settling down and done so with the full intention of replacing it with a new one based on facts on the ground. It was by no means meant to be the last word on the matter