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#493741
The United Methodist Church declares its opposition to the retention and use of capital punishment and urges its abolition. In spite of a common assumption to the contrary, "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth," does not give justification for the imposing of the penalty of death. Jesus explicitly repudiated retaliation (Matthew 5:38-39), and the Talmud denies its literal meaning and holds that it refers to financial indemnities.
Full release
#493742
While we have been attending a Methodist church, I am going to have to disagree with them on this stance. I think some states in our country maybe use it a bit too much and we do need to do more to ensure that an innocent person is not wrongly executed, but there are some situations that it is called for.
#493764
I'm not sure the United Methodists even follow the Bible, so it's no shock they follow whatever liberal cause there is.
#493765
jbock13 wrote:I'm not sure the United Methodists even follow the Bible, so it's no shock they follow whatever liberal cause there is.
They do follow the Bible, actually, but the understanding is just different. Of course, the teachings are going to vary from church to church, like in any denomination.
#493784
jbock13 wrote:I'm not sure the United Methodists even follow the Bible, so it's no shock they follow whatever liberal cause there is.
but does the Bible clearly state that the death penalty is biblical?

In 32 years I still haven't made up my mind on this issue.
#493787
I know it's not mentioned in the bible, but my point is that this denomination as a whole has become more political as opposed to spiritual.
#493789
jbock13 wrote:I know it's not mentioned in the bible, but my point is that this denomination as a whole has become more political as opposed to spiritual.
I'm guessing neither of you have read the OT? Unless you understand being stoned to mean one should be high as a kite...

As for your second point, jbock, one could say the same about the Southern Baptist Convention.
#493793
thepostman wrote:
jbock13 wrote:I'm not sure the United Methodists even follow the Bible, so it's no shock they follow whatever liberal cause there is.
but does the Bible clearly state that the death penalty is biblical?

In 32 years I still haven't made up my mind on this issue.
According to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, it does.

In recent years, I've changed my opinion from being pro-death penalty to against it. In my mind, if I'm going to be pro-life, I'm going to be pro-life in all forms.
#493794
thepostman wrote:But we don't live under Old Testament law which is why I struggle with it. This is not a simple issue. Kind of insane that you would try to paint it as such.
Stoning was still taking place in the NT. The point being Jesus never said 'Stone and Crucify murderers' etc. But it was taking place, obviously, during His time on Earth. He never mentioned anything about pardoning under the Law but focused on Forgiveness and Grace.
I have no problem with the Death Penalty and statistics show that it saves lives in the long run. (Thanks to a Criminal Forensics friend of mine for that nugget). Jesus wasn't about punishment. He was about love and forgiveness. Paul teaches us how to deal with discipline with in the Church, but not in secular cases.
#493795
SuperJon wrote:In recent years, I've changed my opinion from being pro-death penalty to against it. In my mind, if I'm going to be pro-life, I'm going to be pro-life in all forms.
So if there was a draft, I assume you would be a contientious objector based on that position. Do you consider yourself a pacifist?
#493796
SuperJon wrote:
thepostman wrote:
jbock13 wrote:I'm not sure the United Methodists even follow the Bible, so it's no shock they follow whatever liberal cause there is.
but does the Bible clearly state that the death penalty is biblical?

In 32 years I still haven't made up my mind on this issue.
According to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, it does.

In recent years, I've changed my opinion from being pro-death penalty to against it. In my mind, if I'm going to be pro-life, I'm going to be pro-life in all forms.
Then why even put them in prison? If you want the fetus to be born with the will to free why not the adult? Actions have consequences. The fetus has no decision to make in an Abortion except to die. The Murderer has a decision to make. A decision that may cost him his life in Prison or on Death Row
#493797
It's so nice to be such an enlightened people in the last century, that we finally see the moral error of capital punishment.

[[In my opinion]], you can make a much stronger case FOR capital punishment from Scripture than you can AGAINST capital punishment.
#493798
Purple Haize wrote:Jesus wasn't about punishment. He was about love and forgiveness.
Or how about all three. You have to ignore much of Scripture, including the "HIGHLY EXALTED" red letters, to be able to say Jesus wasn't about punishment.
#493799
ALUmnus wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:Jesus wasn't about punishment. He was about love and forgiveness.
Or how about all three. You have to ignore much of Scripture, including the "HIGHLY EXALTED" red letters, to be able to say Jesus wasn't about punishment.
Eternal punishment? Correction? Yep. But not how we should punish criminals.
#493800
I'm not entirely anti-death penalty. I think there are instances where its called for. Socio/psychopathic serial killers, terrorists/leaders of terrorist organizations, leaders/members of criminal gangs that have taken the lives of others, in my opinion, are appropriate uses.

In regards to the woman in Georgia, I was against the use of the death penalty. There is a case going on now in Oklahoma where a man is on death row about to be executed. His lawyers say they have new evidence showing he's innocent. That new evidence deserves a chance to be shown before an irreversible act of execution.

Jesus had opportunities to speak against the death penalty but didn't. Paul didn't speak out against the death penalty. God established the death penalty in the OT. In my view, it is pretty clear there is a time and a place for it.
#493804
Sly Fox wrote:
SuperJon wrote:In recent years, I've changed my opinion from being pro-death penalty to against it. In my mind, if I'm going to be pro-life, I'm going to be pro-life in all forms.
So if there was a draft, I assume you would be a contientious objector based on that position. Do you consider yourself a pacifist?
I honestly don't know. I'm still working through it all. I know I hate war and what comes of it but I also recognize the need for it at times.
#493808
thepostman wrote:But we don't live under Old Testament law which is why I struggle with it. This is not a simple issue. Kind of insane that you would try to paint it as such.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
#493812
Purple Haize wrote:Then why even put them in prison? If you want the fetus to be born with the will to free why not the adult? Actions have consequences. The fetus has no decision to make in an Abortion except to die. The Murderer has a decision to make. A decision that may cost him his life in Prison or on Death Row
Your logic is pretty faulty to me but I have no problem with sending someone to prison for life if they're committed a heinous crime. They're still living and breathing but they're having to pay for their decision. At the same time, because they're still living and breathing, they still have a chance to meet Jesus even in prison.
#493814
ATrain wrote:Jesus had opportunities to speak against the death penalty but didn't. Paul didn't speak out against the death penalty. God established the death penalty in the OT. In my view, it is pretty clear there is a time and a place for it.
Would Jesus with the woman caught in adultery count as him speaking against capital punishment? She was about to get stoned (likely to death) and he basically said it wasn't our place to take someone's life as a penalty. Would that be a fair interpretation of that story?
#493816
bluejacket wrote:
thepostman wrote:But we don't live under Old Testament law which is why I struggle with it. This is not a simple issue. Kind of insane that you would try to paint it as such.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
I believe Jesus was speaking of the religious/moral law in that context, not the civil/governmental or ceremonial laws.

With that said, did the commands that this debate center around fall under religious/moral law or civil/governmental law? That's where the sides split.
#493817
SuperJon wrote:
ATrain wrote:Jesus had opportunities to speak against the death penalty but didn't. Paul didn't speak out against the death penalty. God established the death penalty in the OT. In my view, it is pretty clear there is a time and a place for it.
Would Jesus with the woman caught in adultery count as him speaking against capital punishment? She was about to get stoned (likely to death) and he basically said it wasn't our place to take someone's life as a penalty. Would that be a fair interpretation of that story?
You could make that argument, but lets look at the context of that situation:
The woman was brought to him by the Pharisees, who the Bible makes pretty clear were self-righteous hypocrites but they weren't legal authorities. There was no trial, just a quick rush to judgment. He began writing in the sand, what exactly he was writing we do not know but common speculative theory states He was writing the sins of the Pharisees (and one may have been the man she was caught with) and then said, He who is without sin cast the first stone.

I would argue that using the woman brought to Him as an argument against the death penalty is taking that situation out of context.

It is also important to consider that Jesus did not condemn the Roman authority for executing Him or the thieves next to Him. Indeed, he could have spared the thieves, including one who repented, but rather chose to let the government carry out what was considered justice back in that day for their crimes.
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