[Kiwon]

Here's a very sad story.

The sin and shame we understand. The choice to commit suicide rather than self-forgiveness is more difficult. You've heard, "Don't judge a book by its cover." Likewise we see seemingly healthy people from the outside and never know what desperate struggles they are going through emotionally.

I appreciate this family telling their story.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.2352982

[Sly Fox]

Depression is one of the strongest tools of the enemy. I pushes logic completely out of the equation.

My hat is off to the family who chose to take this public even though they knew the consequences of the decision. That is sacrificial living.

[Purple Haize]

I don't think depression is any more a tool of the devil than a torn ACL is a tool of the Devil. It's that type of stigma that hinders mental health care IMO

[Sly Fox]

I guess I am missing the stigma. Depression is very real and needs to be treated. We have lost family members to suicide where depression and self-loathing were the primary drivers. Sadly when folks are in that state they are often less likely to seek help.

[Purple Haize]

I guess I am missing the stigma. Depression is very real and needs to be treated. We have lost family members to suicide where depression and self-loathing were the primary drivers. Sadly when folks are in that state they are often less likely to seek help.

The stigma being 'it's a tool of the Devil'. That phrase causes Christians or those influenced by Christians to become more confused etc. Deperession shouldn't be a stigma anymore than a sprained ankle but when people call it one of the Devils Tools it does nothing but add to it

[Sly Fox]

We are at odds only in semantics. I'm speaking theologically and you are speaking physically.

[Purple Haize]

We are at odds only in semantics. I'm speaking theologically and you are speaking physically.

How is depression a theological issue? It is a physical (brain chemistry) issue. Putting it in the realm of theology and God v Satan is not a good thing IMO. To be fair I don't think you are advocating self destruction and your heart is in the right place. But if I'm in the midst of a depression episode, hearing that Satan has his claws in me isn't helpful or truthful

[SuperJon]

Here's where Christians get in trouble:

We don't differentiate the lies that Satan whispers in our ear with the chemical imbalance of depression.

One is theological.

One is physical.

[thepostman]

I think they both are at play with mental illness and to minimize either is a mistake. I do get what purple is saying. If people feel they are so messed up and weak Satan is taking hold of them what is the use?? It's an age old battle many of us have dealt with, myself included.

[Purple Haize]

I think they both are at play with mental illness and to minimize either is a mistake. I do get what purple is saying. If people feel they are so messed up and weak Satan is taking hold of them what is the use?? It's an age old battle many of us have dealt with, myself included.

Did Satan cause me to have back surgery? No? Then why is it different with Mental Illness?

[thepostman]

Mental illness is different and much more complicated than back surgery. You are over simplifying it which is a mistake too. This is also an issue that is very hard to discuss on a message board without things being misunderstood. Especially with my terrible written communication skills.

[alabama24]

Did Satan cause me to have back surgery? No? Then why is it different with Mental Illness?

1. You assume the answer is "no."
2. You assume "satan" is the only force at work.

I am not "anti-science" by any means. I am, however, anti - "we know it all because we are smarter than people way back when."

[ALUmnus]

Here's where Christians get in trouble:

We don't differentiate the lies that Satan whispers in our ear with the chemical imbalance of depression.

One is theological.

One is physical.

It's okay to differentiate, but I think too often Christians want to separate the spiritual from the physical. Both of tremendously effect each other.

Purple, read Martyn Lloyd-Jones. One of the foremost pastor-theologians of the last century. He was also a physician, and dealt with severe depression. As did/do many great men of the faith, like Spurgeon.

Lloyd-Jones' book Spiritual Depression is a must-read for anyone in the ministry, or any Christian battling depression.
http://spiritualdepression.grantedministries.org/

Here's a good review of the book: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2012/02/bo ... n-its.html

[SuperJon]

Here's where Christians get in trouble:

We don't differentiate the lies that Satan whispers in our ear with the chemical imbalance of depression.

One is theological.

One is physical.

It's okay to differentiate, but I think too often Christians want to separate the spiritual from the physical. Both of tremendously effect each other.

I agree with this completely. It takes a both/and approach. If we don't acknowledge that we live in a spiritual world that is in the midst of war then we miss a large portion of what's going on. At the same time, if we don't acknowledge that part of the fallen world is broken bodies, we miss the portion that shows our bodies can turn on us.

[thepostman]

Exactly what I was trying to say Jon but couldn't quite articulate.

[Purple Haize]

Did Satan cause me to have back surgery? No? Then why is it different with Mental Illness?

1. You assume the answer is "no."
2. You assume "satan" is the only force at work.

I am not "anti-science" by any means. I am, however, anti - "we know it all because we are smarter than people way back when."

Fairly certain Satans demons did not reach into my spinal column and fracture parts of it. Pretty sure it was a result of an earlier injury. Not sure how Satan played a part other than it being a cheap play by a defender who may or may not be possessed by Satan.
It is that simple most of the time. Life situations and chemical imbalances do not make you a person under attack by Satan. (Yes he will attack you but let's not get sidetracked). Counseling and pharmaceuticals have come a long way in the last 100 years. People once thought 'Demon Possessed' are now leading normal lives because of it.
I do not deny the Spiritual around me. I just don't generally ascribe Depression to it. Too many Christians want to treat Mental Illness as some sort of Frank Peretti type illness when it simply is not the case. If you are not happy and joyful (as a certain referenced book posits) it does not mean you are not living the life God wants you too. Too often people are viewed as Spiritually flawed when dealing with depression. If people actually WOULD approach it like any other health issue it would remove the stigma especially in the Church.

[Purple Haize]

Here's where Christians get in trouble:

We don't differentiate the lies that Satan whispers in our ear with the chemical imbalance of depression.

One is theological.

One is physical.

It's okay to differentiate, but I think too often Christians want to separate the spiritual from the physical. Both of tremendously effect each other.

Purple, read Martyn Lloyd-Jones. One of the foremost pastor-theologians of the last century. He was also a physician, and dealt with severe depression. As did/do many great men of the faith, like Spurgeon.

Lloyd-Jones' book Spiritual Depression is a must-read for anyone in the ministry, or any Christian battling depression.
http://spiritualdepression.grantedministries.org/

Here's a good review of the book: http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2012/02/bo ... n-its.html

I'm familiar with it and read it long ago. Not really a fan.

[SuperJon]

I do not deny the Spiritual around me. I just don't generally ascribe Depression to it.

Here's where I do: many Christians feel "depressed" because they are believing lies that are being whispered in their ears. They don't know and/or don't understand their identity in Christ so they begin believing they aren't good enough, that they'll never amount to anything, or a number of other things. This leads them to feeling "down" about themselves. My battle with depression was and is totally on this side of the coin. Medication wouldn't help my battle except to maybe numb some of it. Christian counseling and daily reminders of who I am in Jesus are the only way for me to win.

Too many Christians want to treat Mental Illness as some sort of Frank Peretti type illness when it simply is not the case. If you are not happy and joyful (as a certain referenced book posits) it does not mean you are not living the life God wants you too.

I completely agree with this. I'm seven months into starting a business I felt God wanted me to start and three months into raising a baby he gave me, but happy and joyful are not two words I would use to describe my life right now. That doesn't mean I'm not living the life God wants me to. It just means life is hard and sometimes it's not fun.

Too often people are viewed as Spiritually flawed when dealing with depression. If people actually WOULD approach it like any other health issue it would remove the stigma especially in the Church.

Again, I agree with the premise of this. The Church doesn't do a great job with depression/mental illness. With that said, I think there's a difference is "mental illness" and "depression." We've tried to lump both of them into the same category for far too long. Some circles focus totally on the spiritual side of things while others think the only fix is medication. It's important that we distinguish the two so the individual can receive the proper care and treatment.

[Purple Haize]

The point you made about Counseling is huge. I'm not a proponent one way or the other as to whether they need to be Christian or not but rather someone you feel comfortable with I personally avoid them because too often in my experience it's 'because you aren't walking right with Christ' which IMO is the worst thing to say. You are basically being told that the depression is your fault and if you would only trust Jesus more everything will be better. Very much like those who say you would be healed from <cancer, high blood pressure etc> if you only believed strong enough in Jesus.
I have great friends who are Christian counsellors who I would have no issue with seeing. They understand that there is much more to Mental Health issues than saying 'Look to yourself and find where Satan is attacking you.' IMO we have greater hope in life because of who we have chosen to follow but also a greater depth to fall into because we can't live up to that standard every day.

Edit: I also agree about depression/mental health being lumped together and am doing so for sake of the conversation

[Purple Haize]

I do not deny the Spiritual around me. I just don't generally ascribe Depression to it.

Here's where I do: many Christians feel "depressed" because they are believing lies that are being whispered in their ears. They don't know and/or don't understand their identity in Christ so they begin believing they aren't good enough, that they'll never amount to anything, or a number of other things. This leads them to feeling "down" about themselves. My battle with depression was and is totally on this side of the coin. Medication wouldn't help my battle except to maybe numb some of it. Christian counseling and daily reminders of who I am in Jesus are the only way for me to win.

Too many Christians want to treat Mental Illness as some sort of Frank Peretti type illness when it simply is not the case. If you are not happy and joyful (as a certain referenced book posits) it does not mean you are not living the life God wants you too.

I completely agree with this. I'm seven months into starting a business I felt God wanted me to start and three months into raising a baby he gave me, but happy and joyful are not two words I would use to describe my life right now. That doesn't mean I'm not living the life God wants me to. It just means life is hard and sometimes it's not fun.

Too often people are viewed as Spiritually flawed when dealing with depression. If people actually WOULD approach it like any other health issue it would remove the stigma especially in the Church.

Again, I agree with the premise of this. The Church doesn't do a great job with depression/mental illness. With that said, I think there's a difference is "mental illness" and "depression." We've tried to lump both of them into the same category for far too long. Some circles focus totally on the spiritual side of things while others think the only fix is medication. It's important that we distinguish the two so the individual can receive the proper care and treatment.

Yeah. I edited my comment to address that. You can substitute 'Bi polar' 'eating disorder' etc for depression I. This convo. I am a huge proponent of Counseling and Medication if needed. If I have a temperature I go to the doctor. Sometimes he gives me medicine sometimes he does not. Same thing with Mental Illness

[ATrain]

I'm just going to put in that "depression," is a mental illness, however there is a difference between being clinically depressed due to chemical imbalances and just feeling sad. I see this daily in my line of work, and have to make judgment calls about their ability to function in a work environment as a result.

[Kiwon]

This book was recommended to me.

I have not completed it yet but so far I must say that the author's personal account of his mental health struggles has caused me to rethink my understanding of several issues. I have found it to strike a good balance between the spiritual and the physical aspects of depression, etc.



http://www.amazon.com/Broken-Minds-Heal ... oken+Minds