[fan00]

Haven't read through this entire thread, so I apologize if this has been said. However, a few weeks ago we were discussing this at church and someone mentioned praying that God would raise up a Saul/Paul in the ISIS camp. I believe he gave credit to The Gospel Coalition for that thought and prayer, but it has certainly stuck with me and changed the way I am praying for this entire situation . Just a thought.

[SuperJon]

Right after the Egyptian 21 were killed a lot of people started talking about that. The Gospel Coalition and Reach Record guys were the ones I heard it from the most.

Saul was essentially a member of ISIS. That's why they make that comparison.

[Purple Haize]

Beej - you need to seriously re-examine your view on this. And this time do it through the lens of a Christian worldview that says all of those innocent bystanders who would be killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time are made in the image of God and have done nothing wrong.

I'll defend Beej a little on this one. While he does seem to enjoy writing no Apocolyptic prose he's not really wrong. I am neither Mennonite nor Amish, so I am not a pacifist. It is the US, not the Baptist Church, that is fighting IS. We are not 'killing in the name of love" to quote an awesome Rage Against the Machine song. War is a nasty thing, something that a lot of people don't realize. If we were to unleash Arc Light on Mosul civilians will get killed. Just like I'm every other conflict in history. I'm sorry this will happen, but again it's not Christianity that is killing them.

He does bring up a great point about a 24-72 hour evacuation period. We did this in I believe Fallujah in the 2nd Gilf War. We allowed as many Covilians t leave that wanted to and then labeled all remaining as enemy targets. It worked very well, cut down civilian casualties and made the place safer for our guys

The U.S. is adamant about limiting civilian casualties We are the only country in History that takes the kinds of steps we do in order to limit them. That is a testament to the work that certain board member do on a daily basis. IS needs to be dealt with violently and swiftly. Under this Administration neither will happen.

[adam42381]

We are not 'killing in the name of love" to quote an awesome Rage Against the Machine song.

If you're going to quote Rage, at least get it right. There's no love there.

[Purple Haize]

We are not 'killing in the name of love" to quote an awesome Rage Against the Machine song.

If you're going to quote Rage, at least get it right. There's no love there.

I didn't say it was a direct quote! It was sort of a Rage/U2 mash up!

[SuperJon]

I'm going to break down Haize's post a little to try to describe the view I've been talking about. I'll fully admit that I haven't completely wrapped my head around the entire issue yet. In the past, I've been in the "let's just bomb them and get it over with camp." Recently though, I've been thinking more about the fact that everyone on this planet is made in the image of God and if they don't know Jesus, they're going to hell when they die. Actually seeing a little tiny baby that I helped create inside the womb opened me up more to how every life is a miracle, not just the straight, conservative Republican Christian lives. This has led me to reexamining what I think of a lot of things that most conservative Christians just accept at face value. With that said, I'm open to being told I'm wrong. I'm still in this process.

It is the US, not the Baptist Church, that is fighting IS.

Yes. It's the US fighting ISIS, not the Church. Agree completely on that. With that said, just because it's the US doing it doesn't mean that I, personally, should be thrilled that human lives are going to lost (on both sides).

War is a nasty thing, something that a lot of people don't realize.

War is horrible. That's why I don't get excited about the idea of it happening.

If we were to unleash Arc Light on Mosul civilians will get killed. Just like I'm every other conflict in history. I'm sorry this will happen, but again it's not Christianity that is killing them.

I know it's not Christianity killing the civilians. That's not my point at all. What I'm trying to say is that, as a Christian, I don't see how we can get excited or enjoy the idea of raining down hot metal or napalm judgment. I acknowledge that war is going to happen and that some things are inevitable. At some point, eliminating a threat to protect safety has to happen. My struggle has been in how lightly we take the fact that people die. I don't know if we've been desensitized to it because it's going on halfway around the world or what the issue is, but I don't like how many in the Church are so quick to drop bombs and sort the rest out later.

[ALUmnus]

but I don't like how many in the Church are so quick to drop bombs and sort the rest out later.

First step is to realize how many in the church aren't actually Christians. That will explain a lot of the unsavory opinions.

We get all up in arms when the Christians over there are executed, and we should, but it's actually the Muslims over there that are receiving the worst treatment. And while martyrdom and enslavement are terrible outcomes, at least the Christians have hope. Those Muslims are not only being slaughtered and oppressed by their own, but they have no hope. They need our prayer just as much as the persecuted church. We too often wait for a commonality with ourselves before we care (ie, they're Christians, they're Americans, etc). To our shame.

[BJWilliams]

The other thing I didn't get to completely hash out was what to do with all those refugees while hot metal and napalm judgement is raining down upon the enemy combatants...

These people, who are not out to fight American or French or Russian or whoever in the name of Allah or whoever these enemy combatants name...they are leaving their homes, their businesses, their livelihood to be roasted in the aforementioned destruction...having refugee camps ready to go with basic living facilities, food, fresh water, on site medical care, etc, is important. what is equally important, is being able to help them start a new life, whether it is in America, or Australia or China or Sweden or Argentina or wherever, as long as they are willing to follow the laws of their new country

[Purple Haize]

SJ what part of my post celebrated death?

[SuperJon]

I'm not saying yours did. I was simply responding to you. Beej is the type that has celebrated it routinely and he's very representative of a large group of Christians.

[bballfan84]

after creating two kids..i am more inclined to be aggressive against terrorists so that my kids can grow up in the great USA that I had the chance of growing up in..only good one is a dead terrorist I am with you on that Beej..just unleash our military for once..they have handcuffed these guys for decades...sure call me immature etc etc but i have a feeling if your husband or wife just had her head chopped off or your dad burned alive in the WTC you would feel differently..that mindset belongs in upward basketball

[thepostman]

I'm not against military action, for the record. I just despise the kind of mindset BJ spewed on here.

[Purple Haize]

I'm not saying yours did. I was simply responding to you. Beej is the type that has celebrated it routinely and he's very representative of a large group of Christians.

Gotcha. It's just one of those things that if you are going to DO it then DO it right. I don't celebrate it but think being more aggressive for a short period of time beats this passive aggressive thing we are doing now

[BJWilliams]

I will say this Jon, I do not celebrate death. It is the part of war that is the most disheartening. That is probably why I reconsidered the thought of being a sniper in the military, because I would have a hard time putting myself in the place mentally where I could pull the trigger and know that I personally shot a man, even if he was my enemy. Also, while I do talk about raining down "hot metal and napalm judgement" upon our enemies, I would still have to live with the fact that there would be families who lost husbands, wives, grandparents, children and other relatives. Would I have a hard time sleeping at night knowing that fact? Certainly. Would I make that call if it meant eliminating people who have a singular goal of eliminating me and the ones I hold most dear? Absolutely without question.

[Purple Haize]

I used to have a student who was a Recon Spotter. I told him he already had an A and could show up whenever he felt like it!

[SuperJon]

I'm not against military action, for the record. I just despise the kind of mindset BJ spewed on here.

I'm not against it either. I've just reconsidered what it meant.

[TH Spangler]

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/nato- ... cs-n312446

For the past two weeks large military aircraft have surrounded the maintenance facility near my work. They look like refuelers (kc-10's). They might be seeing more action or being scraped, you never know what this administrations up to?

[Humble_Opinion]

Let's get one thing straight... ISIS are kidnapping and selling young women and little girls into sexual slavery. They are pillaging through villages and chopping peoples heads off and selling their organs to further fund their cause. Their religion condones and even celebrates these actions by promising them rewards in the afterlife. These people are psychotic and hellbent on the destruction of everything we love and know about life, faith, freedom, etc. And make no mistake, their main goal is to bring these same scenes they've filmed and disseminated on the net to a street near YOU. So... yeah, Lord forgive me if I CELEBRATE the thought of them being bombed into oblivion courtesy of an American F-16 dropping 6,000 lb JDAMs on their head.

[Purple Haize]

You are forgiven. If I may, I think the question was how joyous we are over "Collateral Damage". How joyous are we if one of our pilots is shot down and captured?
I am as much a "Hawk" as anyone on this board but I also am aware that this is not a video game. Innocent people will die one way or another.

[Humble_Opinion]

PH - from what I've read, no one in this thread made any mention of celebrating the deaths of innocent bystanders, so I don't believe that was a part of the initial question. From what I saw, it seemed that SJ and postie took issue with BJ being so blatant with his comments about wishing death to rain down on the terrorists. I guess I'm confused as to why there is something wrong with this... Sure no one wants innocent bystanders to be injured or killed and as a Christian, I don't celebrate the thought of anyone spending eternity in hell.

But, don't think for a second that I won't celebrate victory and justice on behalf of the rest of the innocent bystanders whose lives will end, if not for us stepping in and putting a stop to this barbarism.

[Purple Haize]

Fair enough

[thepostman]

I took issue with just dropping bombs across a region just for the hell of it. Nowhere did I say we shouldn't help take these insane people out and bring them to justice. If that is what you thought I was saying then that is on you humble.

Of course this is much more complex than could ever really be explained on a message board.

[Humble_Opinion]

And here I am again, thinking that the only good way to handle these monsters is brute unending force starting with continuous bombing for a solid month, followed by boots on the ground to ferret out (and kill in the most graphic way possible) anyone of them that is left.

Wow been. I'm glad you're not running the world.

That was the sequence of posts I read. I don't know you, or know where you work, so I have no context other than what you write here. On face value, I took this as you not supporting action.

[thepostman]

I'm not against military action, for the record. I just despise the kind of mindset BJ spewed on here.

Which I then followed with this. I know it is easy to jump to conclusions when you're emotional about a topic but I am clearly not against action. There is just a huge difference between being responsible about it and whatever it is BJ wants us to do.

[SuperJon]

ISIS is pure evil. There's no getting around that. We have to do what we can to eliminate evil and protect our people. I'll celebrate the eradication of evil but I can't celebrate someone dying.