A Sea Of Red

An "Evangelical" leader attacked Glenn Beck for criticizing churches that preach Social Justice. Chancellor Falwell is quoted as another "prominent evangelical leader" who is suspicious of their motives:

Jerry Falwell Jr., president of Liberty University, a Christian college in Virginia, says Jesus wasn't interested in politics. He says that those pastors who preach economic and social justice "are trying to twist the gospel to say the gospel supported socialism."

"Jesus taught that we should give to the poor and support widows, but he never said that we should elect a government that would take money from our neighbor's hand and give it to the poor," Falwell says.

Falwell says that Jesus believed that individuals, not governments, should help the poor.

"If we all did as Jesus did when he helped the poor, we wouldn't need the government," says Falwell, the son of the late evangelical leader, the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Well said.

Full story here:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/LIVING/03/12/be ... tml?hpt=C1

It should also be noted that Jesus did say "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's."

Personally, I think Jesus was more concerned that the poor were getting taken care of than who was doing it. I'm no historian by any means, but I'm not aware of any Roman government welfare program.

flamehunter wrote:"If we all did as Jesus did when he helped the poor, we wouldn't need the government," says Falwell, the son of the late evangelical leader, the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Yes, I agree.

But we don't. And we won't.

I just had this discussion the other day. The church fails miserably at taking care of the poor.

So now what?

El Scorcho wrote:

flamehunter wrote:"If we all did as Jesus did when he helped the poor, we wouldn't need the government," says Falwell, the son of the late evangelical leader, the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Yes, I agree.

But we don't. And we won't.

I just had this discussion the other day. The church fails miserably at taking care of the poor.

So now what?

So now people turn to the government...and thats why I'm employed.

However, I do agree with JJ on that point.

There were actually multiple evangelical (note the lack of scare quotes) leaders who took Beck to task. If he wants to criticize the government for running a welfare state, then good on him. That's not what he did. He told people to leave their church if they heard the words "social justice" used. I'm not a fan of the words -- I'm a fan of the attitude, though.

Evangelical does not always mean political conservative. Evangelical is a theological standpoint -- one that Glenn Beck is far from a part of. Personally, I think he should look at leaving his own heretical church before he starts giving other people advice.

phoenix wrote:There were actually multiple evangelical (note the lack of scare quotes) leaders who took Beck to task. If he wants to criticize the government for running a welfare state, then good on him. That's not what he did. He told people to leave their church if they heard the words "social justice" used. I'm not a fan of the words -- I'm a fan of the attitude, though.

Evangelical does not always mean political conservative. Evangelical is a theological standpoint -- one that Glenn Beck is far from a part of. Personally, I think he should look at leaving his own heretical church before he starts giving other people advice.

"Evangelical" was CNN's term. They use it much more broadly than I would and I was trying to convey that. I doubt that would scare most of the mature readers of this forum.

flamehunter wrote:

phoenix wrote:There were actually multiple evangelical (note the lack of scare quotes) leaders who took Beck to task. If he wants to criticize the government for running a welfare state, then good on him. That's not what he did. He told people to leave their church if they heard the words "social justice" used. I'm not a fan of the words -- I'm a fan of the attitude, though.

Evangelical does not always mean political conservative. Evangelical is a theological standpoint -- one that Glenn Beck is far from a part of. Personally, I think he should look at leaving his own heretical church before he starts giving other people advice.

"Evangelical" was CNN's term. They use it much more broadly than I would and I was trying to convey that. I doubt that would scare most of the mature readers of this forum.

The quotes around it imply that the critic was really less than evangelical. The critics I read are completely evangelical, orthodox Christians; not folks who would normally be considered liberal (or even moderate).

phoenix wrote:The quotes around it imply that the critic was really less than evangelical. The critics I read are completely evangelical, orthodox Christians; not folks who would normally be considered liberal (or even moderate).

I was basing it on this:

The Rev. Jim Wallis, president of Sojourners, a network of progressive Christians

My fault for not researching Rev. Wallis more, but generally when a Media outlet uses the term Progressive, you can bet they are not what I would call traditional Evangelicals. I'm still not convinced he would fit my definition of one but that's not what I really think is important. My whole point for posting this was that I agreed strongly with what Jerry Jr said about the church's responsibility and that the government's role should be very limited.

flamehunter wrote: My whole point for posting this was that I agreed strongly with what Jerry Jr said about the church's responsibility and that the government's role should be very limited.

I agree, but that isn't what Beck was even talking about. He was talking about what CHURCHES were about doing, not about what the government was doing.

My real point, though, was that Beck's comments came out just after the Heritage Foundation released a video series about social justice, which included segments from Al Mohler and Chuck Colson, among others, talking about the meaning and importance of social justice. Conservative group, that Heritage Foundation, and not one to advocate government expansion into anything.

From the Times:

Religion scholars say the term “social justice” was probably coined in the 1800s, codified in encyclicals by successive popes and adopted widely by Protestant churches in the 1900s. The concept is that Christians should not merely give to the poor, but also work to correct unjust conditions that keep people poor. Many Christians consider it a recurring theme in Scripture.

Nothing about the government in that definition. Either Beck doesn't really know what he's talking about (imagine that!) or he's completely against churches being involved in social work. Either way, he's wrong.

No argument here. Beck is pretty much a loose cannon, sometimes good, sometimes awful. I hope it didn't seem I was defending him. However, I hope that churches that emphasize social justice do not do place greater emphasis on that than they do on spreading the gospel. They run the risk of replacing the best with good things. Social responsibility (love for fellow man) is a natural by-product of Christ's love in the human heart and we should do all we can to help the "widows and orphans". I also believe that verse that says a man shall not eat if he won't work. Too often the helped (in terms of government programs) become dependent on them and that is more of a condition to keep the poor where they are than what caused them to fall into poverty in the first place. Churches tend more to help people up out of their condition, especially if they can help change their spiritual condition. I think that's how God intended it to be.

flamehunter wrote:No argument here. Beck is pretty much a loose cannon, sometimes good, sometimes awful. I hope it didn't seem I was defending him. However, I hope that churches that emphasize social justice do not do place greater emphasis on that than they do on spreading the gospel. They run the risk of replacing the best with good things. Social responsibility (love for fellow man) is a natural by-product of Christ's love in the human heart and we should do all we can to help the "widows and orphans". I also believe that verse that says a man shall not eat if he won't work. Too often the helped (in terms of government programs) become dependent on them and that is more of a condition to keep the poor where they are than what caused them to fall into poverty in the first place. Churches tend more to help people up out of their condition, especially if they can help change their spiritual condition. I think that's how God intended it to be.

+1

i'm seeing alot of the Church of Ephesus here. Revelation chapter 2 stuff of "leaving your first love". That is the way I see churches delving into 'social justice'. The church's focus is to worship God and make disciples. The NT is pretty straightforward in that regard.

Sorry Barry, I'm not your puppet in this pulpit.

PastorZack wrote:i'm seeing alot of the Church of Ephesus here. Revelation chapter 2 stuff of "leaving your first love". That is the way I see churches delving into 'social justice'. The church's focus is to worship God and make disciples. The NT is pretty straightforward in that regard.

Sorry Barry, I'm not your puppet in this pulpit.

I'm seeing doing unto the least of these.

Nobody here is advocating big government. I'm wishing that churches would actually show some compassion for the people around them, and realize that if we don't care about their physical needs they won't care how much we are concerned about their spiritual needs.

From Al Mohler's commentary today:

The one who pleases the Lord is he who will “keep the way of the Lord by doing righteousness and justice” (Gen. 18:19). Israel is told to “do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness you shall judge your neighbor” (Lev. 19:15). God “has established his throne for justice” (Psalm 9:7) and “loves righteousness and justice” (Psalm 33:5). Princes are to “rule in justice” (Is. 32:1) even as the Lord “will fill Zion with justice and righteousness” (Is. 33:5). In the face of injustice, the prophet Amos thundered: “But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream” (Amos 5:18). In a classic statement, Micah reminded Israel: “He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” (Micah 6:8).

To assert that a call for social justice is reason for faithful Christians to flee their churches is nonsense, given the Bible’s overwhelming affirmation that justice is one of God’s own foremost concerns.

Yes, our primary focus must be on spreading the Gospel to the ends of the earth; the reason that the social Gospel movement led to liberalism is that they forgot that. But our problem today is that we've forgotten the other part of the equation.

i just want the government out of my church...when they tell me that I "should" preach about this and deal with people this way is when I have a problem.

El Scorcho wrote:

flamehunter wrote:"If we all did as Jesus did when he helped the poor, we wouldn't need the government," says Falwell, the son of the late evangelical leader, the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

Yes, I agree.

But we don't. And we won't.

I just had this discussion the other day. The church fails miserably at taking care of the poor.

So now what?

I disagree. The problem the church has now is that our government does a GREAT job taking care of the poor. We have an extremely obese poor population in the United States. As a church we have allowed the government to become the "hand of God" when it comes to taking care of the less fortunate. If we continue to allow the government to control and manipulate the poor, the church will have less and less influence in this area of our society.

I am definitely grateful that we have a country that takes care of its poor, but the government cannot solve the root of the problem. Only God can solve that problem. That is why the government spend billions of dollars more every year, and they never get ANYWHERE in the "war on poverty". Actually, it just seems to get worse.

Yeah, I don't know that I agree or disagree with Scorcho's statement of "the church failing miserably at taking care of the poor" but I am interested to know what you base that on. You're not normally the type to make such a broad statement without some sort of fact or stat to sway you that way. Most soup kitchens, special housing, etc. seems like they're church owned.

Also the amount of missionaries that receive church support are often unpublicized. I remember Doc saying at one point how many missionaries and ministries are on TRBC payroll but I dont remember the number he quoted. I would find it hard to believe that even as low as 5-10% of all existing churches dont support at least one ministry or missionary.

Not to mention a lot of non profits offering support.

I know that my church just sent a team to Haiti last week. They couldn't believe the number of churches that had sent people and supplies over there. It has been over a month since the devastating earthquake, the the churches are still coming in.

I'm sure you would find the same type help when Katrina hit. I think every church I knew of took up money/collected supplies to send to churches down in New Orleans to help with the poor and homeless down there.

From my short adult life, I've found that whenever there is a need, the churches usually step up most.

Hey folks, Glenn Beck, 90% of the time is 2 fries shy of a happy meal. The other 10% of the time is when he is making a trip to see his banker at which time he is totally lucid. Beck will say or do anything to enhance his ratings, increase his personal fortune, and elevate his station among the wackos of the world. Now I don't know if it is the place of the church or the government to help the needy but I do know that the separation of those that have and those that have not has increased in America over the last 30 years. Government policy or government inaction has been a major contributor to that chasm and I believe that ultimately it is a recipe for disaster. The Church cannot and should not formulate government policy and only the law makers can protect the masses and they apparently have not done a very good job over the last 30 years. Well anyways, Glen Beck appreciates ya'.

PastorZack wrote:i just want the government out of my church...when they tell me that I "should" preach about this and deal with people this way is when I have a problem.

When has that happened? Obama hasn't done that, that I've heard.

Maybe if the poor of our country spent less money on cable and McDonald's and itunes and rims and cigarettes and everything else, they could afford to purchase healthcare and all the other things our gvt hands out to them.

when they start caring, i might start caring a bit more.

RubberMallet wrote:Maybe if the poor of our country spent less money on cable and McDonald's and itunes and rims and cigarettes and everything else, they could afford to purchase healthcare and all the other things our gvt hands out to them.

when they start caring, i might start caring a bit more.

QFT

i have compassion for the poor and want to help them out. but i'm not going to enable these nitwits. and while i agree, its our job as a christian peoples to reach out to the poor and by and large we do a good job but we probably don't do enough. since that is the case, the gvt thinks it should take this on itself and it has since the 30's. the problem is the people who need it fall by the wayside and the people who've grown up with the system have learned to take advantage of it and see no reason to get off the teat of gvt support. the abuse runs rampant through these programs.

RubberMallet wrote:i have compassion for the poor and want to help them out. but i'm not going to enable these nitwits. and while i agree, its our job as a christian peoples to reach out to the poor and by and large we do a good job but we probably don't do enough. since that is the case, the gvt thinks it should take this on itself and it has since the 30's. the problem is the people who need it fall by the wayside and the people who've grown up with the system have learned to take advantage of it and see no reason to get off the teat of gvt support. the abuse runs rampant through these programs.

QFT again. lol

My church is very involved in helping the poor. They have sent people to Haiti, money to Haiti, fund many missionaries, and run a food pantry. These are just the things I know of from attending less than a year.

TRBC is very involved also, especially through ministries such as elim home. I'm sure others could elaborate more on how they are involved.

I do agree that many churches do not do enough to help poor, especially in their home town. However, i think the government has proven that it is not capable of successfully helping the poor and moving them into a better position in life. It is more of a reward for laziness and irresponsibility than an aid to poor people.