A Sea Of Red

Republican National Committee Chairman Michael Steele vowed Tuesday that the GOP will confront President Barack Obama more aggressively and directly, regardless of his popularity in the polls.

“We are going to take the president head-on. The honeymoon is over. The two-party system is making a comeback, and that comeback starts today,” Steele said in remarks to an RNC meeting in Maryland.

Anyone else not feeling very optimistic?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/200905 ... tico/22709

hooray. Remember when it was the reverse situation 5 or 6 years ago?

Haha, how can they fight back if they keep letting Neo-Con Rush Limbaugh dictate what their agenda is? Goodness sakes, its like he should be the party chairman.

I understand that Steele is hitting up matshark for scissor-kicking lessons.

NJLibertyboy wrote:Haha, how can they fight back if they keep letting Neo-Con Rush Limbaugh dictate what their agenda is? Goodness sakes, its like he should be the party chairman.

Did they hand you that talking points memo at the local NOW rally? I'm not necessarily a fan of the guy but that pat little line from the left got old years ago.

In other news, I have a great idea about what the RNC could do to be more agressive and directly confrontational of the president. Anything.

I'll believe all that noise when I see it

Wow, way to go out of your way to label me as something I am not. Have you followed this party recently? If you don't think the Republican Party kisses his butt and does whatever he says you don't pay attention. Remember that whole "Steele to Rush: I'm sorry". Or when Rush Limbaugh told the Republicans that their planned "Listening Tour" was stupid and that people need to be "taught" what they believe. Then Eric Cantor came out later and said "This isn't a listening tour." Rush Limbaugh is a neo-con and this party needs to seperate itself from that sort of thinking.


By the way, I am an angry member of the Republican Party who has seen the party go way off course. This party used to stand for a humblle foreign policy, conservative spending and limited government. Now, it seems like they only stand for those things when the Democrats are in charge. When Bush ran the show, it was spend spend spend, war war war, patriot act patriot act patriot act, waterboarding waterboarding waterboarding.

If the Republican Party needs to do anything, they need to stop being total hippocrites, clear house in leadership and get back to basic Republican Values! Humble foreign policy, conservative spending, limited government and preserving the constitution.

NJLibertyboy wrote: By the way, I am an angry member of the Republican Party who has seen the party go way off course. This party used to stand for a humblle foreign policy, conservative spending and limited government. Now, it seems like they only stand for those things when the Democrats are in charge. When Bush ran the show, it was spend spend spend, war war war, patriot act patriot act patriot act,waterboarding waterboarding waterboarding

If the Republican Party needs to do anything, they need to stop being total hippocrites, clear house in leadership and get back to basic Republican Values!

Can someone please explain to my why so many people are against this? I've seen it demonstrated and how the heck is that torture? If needed information that might save this country from another 9/11 I'd shoot the terrorist in the knee cap several times or breaking fingers.

I regretted mentioning it as soon as I posted it, not because I didn't think it was relevant but because it opened a can of worms that would drive this conversation off-topic. However, I will address the statement. At first, I was ok with this. However, what changed my mind was the information I found from former soldiers, as well as friends of mine who experienced this personally.

Former soldiers and officers are coming out in droves classifying it as torture not just because they have seen it, but because they were required to do it as part of training. In short doses, it technically may not be dangerous. However, if this technique is used on an unsuspecting prisoner who is being subjected to this despite never being convicted of a crime, it is a torture technique.

Malcolm Nance, former military officer wrote in an article in NY Daily News in 2007 it is torture. That works for me. This has also been supported by many friends of mine who serve or have served in the military. He said this technique, also called "simulated drowning" actually drowns the person. It actually fills your lungs up with water. That isn't simulated drowning, that is legit drowning.

"Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells."

We, as a nation are better than this. We are losing our soul for the sake of "percieved safety", even though waterboarding has been shown to be less than successful. In the end, I believe it is wrong because I was always tought that we provide basic rights in this country, even to our enemies. We are a shining light and an example to others. How can we demand fundamental basic human rights for people when we can't even offer the same?

Not only that, I was to reemphasize that the people being waterboarded have never been convicted of a crime. They have been sent to secret prisons where they have been tortured for years without charge. If that doesn't sound un-American to anyone, then I don't know what does.

This...

NJLibertyboy wrote:Wow, way to go out of your way to label me as something I am not.

...followed by this.

... Rush Limbaugh is a neo-con

Don't blame me. You just labelled yourself. There's only one group of people who drops that particular "N" word.

And the "Listening Tour" was stupid. If you want to flat out tell people that you have no ideas, go on a "Listening Tour".

Personally, I think Limbaugh's act went stale a long time ago but, currently, I think he's doing a lot better job of publicly communicating conservative ideals than Steele or anyone with an R next to their name. The left has been making a concerted effort to marginalize Limbaugh from the Republican cause, primarily by throwing the "neo-con" perjorative at him and quotes like the one you made earlier.

This party used to stand for... conservative spending and limited government.

No party, Republican or Democrat, has actually stood for those things when they were in power. There's really no point in even campaigning on that anymore because no one believes it. Also, a "humble foreign policy" is a good way to get run over on the international stage. President Carter established that axiom by example a while back and Obama appears to be attempting to reinforce its validity now.

Ok. I was gonna say some things but RTF seems to have said them all. And as far as the term neo-con goes, I'd say that REALLY refers to RHINO's like Arlen Specter and John McCain.

As far as waterboarding goes - really just a glorified swirly - they have a doctor present and they check the guys vital signs. Oh, and if the person isn't a U.S. citizen, or on U.S. soil, they really have no rights and are NOT protected by the U.S. Constitution, so I really don't care WHAT the government does with them. Heck, line the up and shoot them at dawn for all I care. The protections enumerated in the Constitution ONLY apply to persons on U.S. soil and U.S. citizens. Waterboard them all for all I care.

As far as effective interrogation techniques go, we could always try to General Pershing approach.

I.e. shoot the terrorists and bury them with pigs... let each terrorist watch and then ask them if there's any information they think we should know, or if they would like to be the next in line. their choice. nothing like seeing your shot at paradise go up in bacon smoke.

+1

+1

NJLibertyboy wrote:Rush Limbaugh is a neo-con and this party needs to seperate itself from that sort of thinking.


By the way, I am an angry member of the Republican Party who has seen the party go way off course. This party used to stand for a humblle foreign policy, conservative spending and limited government. Now, it seems like they only stand for those things when the Democrats are in charge.

I don't understand. Have you ever listened to Rush Limbaugh or know where he stands? He's trying to pull things back from the middle, which is exactly what you seem to agree with.

I watch only a little bit of the cable news shows but they seem to recommend the exact opposite for the GOP to succeed. Although it's a little difficult to believe a political writer for Rolling Stone saying that the Republicans need to be more like Democrats if they want to take power back. Gee, how convenient for democrats. It's funny because they always say the party is playing to some kind of "fringe". I can't tell if they're just clueless or lying.

I have listened to Rush Limbaugh. The point I was originally trying to make it that the party listens to Rush Limbaugh and cares what he thinks, and that scares me. I didn't necessarily say the listening tour wasn't dumb, but I found it quite funny that they changed their tune only after he said something about it. My point was that when conservatives kiss up to him, he becomes the de-facto representative of the Republican Party, meaning any possibly moronic thing that comes out of his mouth can be tagged to Republicans. For the sake of everyone, they need to seperate from him.

Humble foreign policy does not equal Jimmy Carter's foreign policy. Don't jump to conclusions. Jimmy Carter was a moron. A humble foreign policy, like I am discussing, leaves the door open to talk with countries. The more you threaten, the more you intervene, the more you invade, it hurts the cause for democracy around the world. "We're going to invade you and make you become democratic." Wow, sounds wonderful. Look at Vietnam. We fought them for years, lost so many soldiers, and look what happened. We got nowhere. Vietnam is now one of the most openly economic countries in Asia. That didn't happen because we invaded them, or told them what they were going to be. It happened because they realized that what they were doing wasn't working, and they needed a change. The more we isolate countries we do not agree with we throw fuel into the fire and make the problem worse.

Humble foreign policy also means we don't have soldiers in every country in the world. They don't need to be there, we are not running an empire, bring them home.

Back to the terrorist statements
They are not US Citizens, and they are not on US Soil, but that doesn't mean they don't have rights. Secret prisons are never right. Secret trials are never right, especially if those people have never been charged or convicted with a crime! What is wrong with us?! How does no one have a problem with this? We would have such a problem with this is some country arrested one of our people with no proof, did "enhanced interrogrations" and kept them in a secret prison for years. So, am I to understand that it is ok if we do it, but others can't?

And I agree with your assessment that cable news pundits and everyone and their grandmother are telling the Republicans to go more mainstream and surprise, liberal. I disagree with that as well. I just think the Republicans need to show they are real about this by canning all those who dragged this party into the ground and by bringing it fresh young faces that can put a fresh face behind real conservative values.

NJLibertyboy wrote:I have listened to Rush Limbaugh. The point I was originally trying to make it that the party listens to Rush Limbaugh and cares what he thinks, and that scares me. I didn't necessarily say the listening tour wasn't dumb, but I found it quite funny that they changed their tune only after he said something about it. My point was that when conservatives kiss up to him, he becomes the de-facto representative of the Republican Party, meaning any possibly moronic thing that comes out of his mouth can be tagged to Republicans. For the sake of everyone, they need to seperate from him.

You can only have a de-facto representative if there's no evident leadership, which is the case. And as far as a possibly moronic thing being said, what evidence do you have that this will or has happened? Maybe you disagree with something he's said, but most conservatives do not. But I guess with comments like this

When Bush ran the show, it was ..., war war war, patriot act patriot act patriot act, waterboarding waterboarding waterboarding.

there's probably a lot of what he says that you don't like.

Also, for every former soldier that doesn't like waterboarding, you can find exponentially more who disagree.

NJLibertyboy wrote:Look at Vietnam. We fought them for years, lost so many soldiers, and look what happened. We got nowhere. Vietnam is now one of the most openly economic countries in Asia. That didn't happen because we invaded them, or told them what they were going to be. It happened because they realized that what they were doing wasn't working, and they needed a change.

Are you kidding? Firstly, The US didn't "invade" Vietnam. The US was there at the behest of the South Vietnamese government to protect it against the aggression of the communist North Vietnamese. Secondly, at that time, Vietnam's economy was thriving -- partially due to the US military presence -- far more than it is today. When we abandoned Vietnam, their country and economy went into a 30-year nosedive that they are only beginning to come out of thanks to sweatshops and because they have no alternative whatsoever. It turns out that communism works even less well in southeast Asia than it did in eastern Europe.

Any foreign policy based on "humility" is the stuff of neophyte fairy dust dreams and is guaranteed to fail. If you want to talk, you must establish a reason for the other side to have to talk to you. This is not a world where everyone wants to just get along.

As for the military, like it or not, the US is a cultural and economic empire. Whether you believe that to be right or wrong is completely irrelevant; it's fact. Much like the Roman legions, where the US military goes, civilization follows and thank God for it. One look at history tells us that when the Roman legions went away, chaos and madmen took their place and the Dark Ages descended.

flamesfilmguy wrote:

NJLibertyboy wrote: By the way, I am an angry member of the Republican Party who has seen the party go way off course. This party used to stand for a humblle foreign policy, conservative spending and limited government. Now, it seems like they only stand for those things when the Democrats are in charge. When Bush ran the show, it was spend spend spend, war war war, patriot act patriot act patriot act,waterboarding waterboarding waterboarding

If the Republican Party needs to do anything, they need to stop being total hippocrites, clear house in leadership and get back to basic Republican Values!

Can someone please explain to my why so many people are against this? I've seen it demonstrated and how the heck is that torture? If needed information that might save this country from another 9/11 I'd shoot the terrorist in the knee cap several times or breaking fingers.

For starters, waterboarding violates current U.S. law, it can induce heart attacks, and seldom provides reliable information. The U.S. had condemned other nations for use of waterboarding.

U.S. law? What do you mean by that?

Covert Hawk wrote: For starters, waterboarding violates current U.S. law, it can induce heart attacks, and seldom provides reliable information. The U.S. had condemned other nations for use of waterboarding.

I've been scanning for anything factual in this statement, but am coming up empty. Links, maybe?

Next discussion : US using waterboarding on TERRORISTS vs TERRORISTS sawing off the heads of US citizens on video. Nuff Said. Waterboard away.

Also if I am not mistaken our armed forces put some of our recruits thru waterboarding. I believe special forces, pilot, just to let them know what can happen to them if captured. I have heard this from service people telling me that.

4everfsu wrote:Also if I am not mistaken our armed forces put some of our recruits thru waterboarding. I believe special forces, pilot, just to let them know what can happen to them if captured. I have heard this from service people telling me that.

This is correct. Perhaps when terrorists start having doctors present to determine when too much sawing off of captives heads on video is harmful to their health and that they should stop and let them recover, THEN you can ATTEMPT to make a moral equivalency claim. In the mean time, stop your whining. You should spend your time discovering how the world REALLY works instead of reading fairy tales on the Huffington Post website.

There are bad guys out there that want us dead and our civilization and its rules destroyed. They cannot be reasoned with or placated and will not stop this side of a dirt nap. You want to say "shame on us" for being something other than overly cordial with them when we ask them what they know. You try that with me and i'll laugh at you, spit in your face, throw my coffee on you then tell you it's not fixed properly b/c it needs extra cream and sugar, all while demanding my brand new lazy boy recliner with a massage therapist.

There's a way to deal with bad guys and what you're suggesting ISN'T IT! There are three things they understand: pain, force and death. If you want the information they have, you have to speak to them in a language they understand. When they start understanding other languages - i.e. civil discourse - then you can speak to them in those other languages. Until then, you're just wasting your time and making a fool out of yourself.

I prefer blowing them up. Maybe watching pieces of their comrades land a few hundred yards away might persuade them more than waterboarding

BJWilliams wrote:I prefer blowing them up. Maybe watching pieces of their comrades land a few hundred yards away might persuade them more than waterboarding

Really? Are you talking about the guys who are already blowing themselves up or the guys who send their friends out to blow themselves up?

flamesfilmguy wrote:

NJLibertyboy wrote: By the way, I am an angry member of the Republican Party who has seen the party go way off course. This party used to stand for a humblle foreign policy, conservative spending and limited government. Now, it seems like they only stand for those things when the Democrats are in charge. When Bush ran the show, it was spend spend spend, war war war, patriot act patriot act patriot act,waterboarding waterboarding waterboarding

If the Republican Party needs to do anything, they need to stop being total hippocrites, clear house in leadership and get back to basic Republican Values!

Can someone please explain to my why so many people are against this? I've seen it demonstrated and how the heck is that torture? If needed information that might save this country from another 9/11 I'd shoot the terrorist in the knee cap several times or breaking fingers.

my buddy went through seal training in which he was waterboarded...he said it is torture...he would give up any info if he was ever waterboarded and was sure he was going to die even though he knew it was training.....i was on the fence on this one until he described the act to me. i would say its torture....they have medic onsight in case of a mishap.

now, would i be fine with it in certain instances? i could probably be persuaded...the problem is we dont' know how many times its been used (its been speculated that less than a dozen times)

but i would tend to lean on it being torture...