[ALUmnus]

Where did all this stuff come from about the "old law"? What does it have to do with this particular conversation? And since when are Paul's letters not the inspired, holy Word of God?

[thepostman]

this is not a debate about whether homosexuality is a sin or not. The New Testament is also clear that it is a sin, its hard to even debate that and remain credible.

This debate, to me, is about the deceptive words used by the LC to sway people to be fearful of gay people in the military. That is what I find wrong.

There is a balance between being loving and sharing God's love with others and at the same time holding onto God's truth. We should allow our faith influence how we vote, it should influence everything we do, but we also need to remember that we need to love others and do it in a Christ-like way. Telling half-truths is still lying and not Christ-like at all.

I wish that these guys would respond to me instead of completely ignoring what I have to say. I am sure its because they realize what I say makes sense so its hard for them to defend themselves. A lot of stupidity has been spewed in this thread on both sides...stupidity seems to be spreading the longer this thread is open.

Bottom line is Homosexuality is a sin, it is clear, but we can not resort to the tactics of the world to get our point across. If we showed the love of Christ truly as He desires of us, then we wouldn't have to look to politics to "save us"

[ToTheLeft]

I like that idea but, how do you limit this freedom? Because in our fallen state unlimited freedom leads to sin(or murder, theft, etc).

...no, sin will happen if we're all held at gunpoint daily and told not to sin at the cost of our lives. No man is free from sin. More or less government WON'T IMPACT THE PRESENCE OF SIN.

A world completely free from homosexuals serving openly in the military won't stop sin. A bill stopping abortion won't stop sin. And heaven knows that allowing more people to have more guns isn't stopping sin, but that's something Liberty Counsel is probably 100% behind!

The government has nothing to do with the presence of sin in America, either positively or negatively. It is not possible to legislate sin our of a country. Sin will happen even if Jerry Jr. was elected president and made the US Law look like the Liberty Way.

[From the class of 09]

Bottom line is Homosexuality is a sin, it is clear, but we can not resort to the tactics of the world to get our point across. If we showed the love of Christ truly as He desires of us, then we wouldn't have to look to politics to "save us"

Agree but I'm not sure what stupidity I've been spewing?

[From the class of 09]

I like that idea but, how do you limit this freedom? Because in our fallen state unlimited freedom leads to sin(or murder, theft, etc).

...no, sin will happen if we're all held at gunpoint daily and told not to sin at the cost of our lives. No man is free from sin. More or less government WON'T IMPACT THE PRESENCE OF SIN.

A world completely free from homosexuals serving openly in the military won't stop sin. A bill stopping abortion won't stop sin. And heaven knows that allowing more people to have more guns isn't stopping sin, but that's something Liberty Counsel is probably 100% behind!

The government has nothing to do with the presence of sin in America, either positively or negatively. It is not possible to legislate sin our of a country. Sin will happen even if Jerry Jr. was elected president and made the US Law look like the Liberty Way.

You just missed the point (being that you have to have more of a foundation for government than freedom)

[ToTheLeft]

I like that idea but, how do you limit this freedom? Because in our fallen state unlimited freedom leads to sin(or murder, theft, etc).

...no, sin will happen if we're all held at gunpoint daily and told not to sin at the cost of our lives. No man is free from sin. More or less government WON'T IMPACT THE PRESENCE OF SIN.

A world completely free from homosexuals serving openly in the military won't stop sin. A bill stopping abortion won't stop sin. And heaven knows that allowing more people to have more guns isn't stopping sin, but that's something Liberty Counsel is probably 100% behind!

The government has nothing to do with the presence of sin in America, either positively or negatively. It is not possible to legislate sin our of a country. Sin will happen even if Jerry Jr. was elected president and made the US Law look like the Liberty Way.

You just missed the point (being that you have to have more of a foundation for government than freedom)

I missed what point?

You said with freedom comes sin. That's not true at all, in fact it's far from true.

There is no need to limit freedom.

[ToTheLeft]

Ugh, see, I can't stop.

I'm done... I wish there was a way to hide this thread.

[ValuesVoter]

I wish that these guys would respond to me instead of completely ignoring what I have to say. I am sure its because they realize what I say makes sense so its hard for them to defend themselves. A lot of stupidity has been spewed in this thread on both sides...stupidity seems to be spreading the longer this thread is open.

The problem, friend, is that you refuse to acknowledge that you have been addressed. In so doing, you've refused to disprove anything that Liberty Counsel has said. As I mentioned in adressing you before, just because you think it to be wrong does not make it so. Show us, in accordance with God's Word, how Liberty Counsel exhorting the body of LU (a body of mostly believers -- heaven help us if that's not the case) to express Biblical values to their Senators is wrong. Show us how the language that LC used is wrong, because in my opinion, it's very right, and yes, I do care about what current military service members think -- I know and have discussed this issue with many.

As for our freedoms, let’s look at Galatians 5:13-15: You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

This is a verse that our Founding Fathers understood. They understood that our liberties were not granted to us so we could do whatever we want, but so that we could do good. That is, from what I understand, Liberty Counsel’s mission: to secure liberties in order for people, Christians, to go out and do good; to enable people to share the Gospel.

I am curious about whether some of you even believe Christians should engage in political process to the extent of voting, and if so, what should we base our votes on… can we, in accordance with your thinking, base our votes on our Biblical values as thepostman has suggested (and I would agree) that we can?

As for the role of the law, as I mentioned, it’s a right/wrong message machine. It helps to govern our behavior and is especially important considering many people, as you say, will not heed the direction of the Holy Spirit and who thus, need consequences to direct their paths. I’d also like to (once again) direct you to I Timothy 1:8-11. This time, I’ll provide it for you since I doubt you took the time to look it up last time I referenced the verse. Here it is: We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

[From the class of 09]

Ugh, see, I can't stop.

I'm done... I wish there was a way to hide this thread.

I said unlimited freedom leads to sin not freedom leads to sin. Unlimited means we can both do whatever we want and when we want different things than unrestrained conflicts results. So this would be a bad form of government. Limited freedom I'm with because you have to limit my freedom (to an extent) in order to preserve yours.

[thepostman]

I wish that these guys would respond to me instead of completely ignoring what I have to say. I am sure its because they realize what I say makes sense so its hard for them to defend themselves. A lot of stupidity has been spewed in this thread on both sides...stupidity seems to be spreading the longer this thread is open.

The problem, friend, is that you refuse to acknowledge that you have been addressed. In so doing, you've refused to disprove anything that Liberty Counsel has said. As I mentioned in adressing you before, just because you think it to be wrong does not make it so. Show us, in accordance with God's Word, how Liberty Counsel exhorting the body of LU (a body of mostly believers -- heaven help us if that's not the case) to express Biblical values to their Senators is wrong. Show us how the language that LC used is wrong, because in my opinion, it's very right, and yes, I do care about what current military service members think -- I know and have discussed this issue with many.

As for our freedoms, let’s look at Galatians 5:13-15: You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

This is a verse that our Founding Fathers understood. They understood that our liberties were not granted to us so we could do whatever we want, but so that we could do good. That is, from what I understand, Liberty Counsel’s mission: to secure liberties in order for people, Christians, to go out and do good; to enable people to share the Gospel.

I am curious about whether some of you even believe Christians should engage in political process to the extent of voting, and if so, what should we base our votes on… can we, in accordance with your thinking, base our votes on our Biblical values as thepostman has suggested (and I would agree) that we can?

As for the role of the law, as I mentioned, it’s a right/wrong message machine. It helps to govern our behavior and is especially important considering many people, as you say, will not heed the direction of the Holy Spirit and who thus, need consequences to direct their paths. I’d also like to (once again) direct you to I Timothy 1:8-11. This time, I’ll provide it for you since I doubt you took the time to look it up last time I referenced the verse. Here it is: We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.

read my posts and I think you would clearly see where I stand on voting and how I feel about homosexuality.

A. If Don't Ask Don't Tell is overturned it WILL NOT cause people to leave the military and cause a draft. Stating things like this and sending it to college students is telling half truths which is half lies..Last I check we aren't suppose to be deceptive as Christians.

B. It will not cause chaos. Will it cause some issues? Of course it will, but it will not cause chaos.

Those are the major issues I have a problem with.

I don't disagree that don't ask, don't tell is fine. It was actually put into place FOR homosexuals, but I am not for scare tactics to get people to change their opinion. That is wrong.

It is what these groups do, but it does not make it right. I think you are confusing my beliefs with others on this thread. I agree its a sin, I agree Don't Ask Don't Tell is a good policy. I, however, do not agree with LC's tactics. It is simple as that.

So please read my posts before responding. I know what the scripture says so please do not belittle me. I have clearly laid out in this thread my beliefs on homosexuality, the policy, and Christians when it comes to voting. If you read those posts and didn't get that form that then maybe it is just impossible to have a true conversation about this issue with you as you are clearly connected to LC is some way. So there is no way you could take this issue on in a non-bias fashion

[Green Monkey]

The Liberty Counsel was definitely in the wrong with using fear mongering in that email. It provided no links to actual sources so students could look at the issues for themselves. There wasn't even a link provided to the survey they cited so people could make sure it was actually scientifically conducted. The main point of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell section was basically "Hey college students (especially males), contact your representative now or don't ask, don't tell will be repealed and you'll get drafted!"

I can hardly believe this. It's fear mongering because you didn't want to take the time to look up what they said? Must we be spoonfed everything? It really wasn't too difficult for me to get online and find the survey. And, if you're really interested in the issue, you can do your own research, especially if you're skeptical of what you're being told. Though I can form my own conclusions (and I happen to agree with Liberty Counsel), I appreciate being kept informed about what Congress is up to.

I've already cited Scripture about preserving our culture, and some other people did as well. I certainly agree that the church needs to be the church in sharing the Gospel and helping the widows and orphans, I, however, also understand that our culture needs to be preserved. That everyone will not come to know the Lord and that laws direct nonbeliever's behavior as well (I Tim. 1:8-9 -- no, I'm not going to type it out or provide a link). I agree, we need to focus on the Sanctity of Life issue as well. (I looked Liberty Counsel up -- they focuse on life issues, family issues, and religious liberty issues. So, this, homosexuals serving in the military, isn't the only thing they care about.)

As I said before, the law is a right/wrong message machine. Obviously there are perameters within which legislators must operate, but nonetheless, I see no problem with using Scripture as a basis for legislation. As I said, our Founding Fathers did.

No, I do not expect to be spoonfed the information. I am searching into it for myself to form my own opinion. For the record, I am a Christian and I believe that homosexuality is a sin.

With that said, here is why I call their tactics "fear mongering." They send me an unsolicited email giving me their opinion and a call to action. In the email, they talk about a situation that could be particularly pertinent to my life, namely being drafted if this was repealed. Keep in mind that this email was sent specifically to students. However, they do not provide any good evidence as to why this is a danger. They provided statistics from a poll which they did not even identify and nothing else. If you are going to try to scare me with something as life-changing as being drafted if I do not take action, then I would like for you to back up what you are actually claiming. All I want is some clear, concrete evidence that this is a danger. I don't go around telling people to call their representatives without providing good reasons why and I would like the Liberty Counsel to do the same.

Let me give you a hypothetical situation. If you received an email from a different group saying to call your representative to pass legislation that would prevent global warming or we will all die in ten years from environmental damages, you would expect some pretty good evidence showing that this is the case, wouldn't you? That is all I'm asking. That they treat the students as intelligent individuals who can look at the facts and decide for themselves.

[El Scorcho]

Values Voter: Do you believe that American citizens have the freedom to adopt whatever religion or faith they want? Or no faith at all?

[allourbase]

HIV can lay dormant for an extended period and not show up in tests.

Actually, your assertion that it can't be found while dormant is false. The dormancy of the virus has nothing to do with whether it is detected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_AI ... unreliable

[thepostman]

why are we talking about HIV in a don't ask don't tell thread? Military members, including myself, are tested regularly for HIV/AIDS. This should not even been part of this debate.

[LUconn]

people see something they disagree with and can't help themselves. It's how eArguing works

[El Scorcho]

This thread looks different than it did. That's because of me.

[ToTheLeft]

This thread looks different than it did. That's because of me.

What changed?

[El Scorcho]

This thread looks different than it did. That's because of me.

What changed?

Some content was removed. I removed it because I felt it was in the best interest of everyone here.

[ATrain]

We have one person who is apparently willing to strip down and sleep with men who may be sexually attracted to him,

It is this statement, right here, that bothers me about valuesvoter. The assumptions he makes about me does make that saying about assumptions (though in this case its just him) true.

Before you go making assumption about me and my "lifestyle," why don't you take the time to get to know me. Unless, of course, even talking to or hanging out with someone who identifies as gay other than "ministering," makes you uncomfortable...in which case the term homophobe definitely applies.

[allourbase]

A hands-off approach to sin-endorsing legislation and the political process will not help to spread the Word. All it does is legitimize and normalize sin.

Having the government remain neutral on an issue does not mean that they are condoning or endorsing. I don't condone or endorse mullets, but I think guys (and girls) that have them are silly, and I'll never have one myself. There are a lot of things that I don't like, some of which is sinful activity, but that doesn't mean I need the government to tell them not to do it.

Obviously the manipulation of Scripture to further political efforts is wrong, but Scripture is clear on the issue of homosexual conduct.

It's also clear about lying, gossip, and hate, but should we legislate that all lying, and all gossip, and all hate be illegal? I know there are statutes that protect consumers and businesses when it comes to disclosing false information (or lying), and that gossip (let's call it insider trading) is on some levels made illegal. But Scripture is clear that all gossip is a sin, so why do we stop there? Should the police break down your door when you and your friends talk about some of the things that go on in your group? An action that some would say is clearly gossip. Scripture is Scripture, and sin is sin. It just seems that many believers want to pick on the things that everyone else does when it comes to legislation. "I'm not a homosexual, so we should ban it. I gossip, let's not ban that." Pick any other sin if gossiping isn't your thing. Gluttony works just as well. Let's ban Thanksgiving, or at least fine people that eat more than one slice of pumpkin pie. It can't be healthy (and our bodies are a temple).

Why is it not okay to use Scripture as a basis for legislation? That's what our Founding Fathers did when they authored the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.

So why didn't they legislate against it when they wrote those documents. That was probably a great time to include it.

Despite what Obama is telling you, this is a Christian nation -- it was founded on Christian principles,

I'm a Christian, but I just don't get the Christian Nation thing. It seems like such a waste of time. How many homosexuals love Jesus now because Christian values triumphed on Capitol Hill? How many homosexual's lives have been truly transformed by His blood because the Senate delayed their vote? Jesus said very, very little about government while he was here on Earth, and there's absolutely a reason for that...it was, and still is, a waste of time when it comes to reaching people for Jesus. Also, we're not a Christian Nation. This isn't a theocracy. If God still needed a nation to do his business, he wouldn't have stopped what he was doing in the OT.

[LUconn]

my women bashing comment made the cut. yessssssssss



P.S. Atrain's post was gross

[allourbase]

May I remind you all that, as Christians, we have dual roles on earth. We are to be the salt and the light. (Matthew 5:13-16) As salt, we are called to have a preserving quality. We are called to preserve our culture. This doesn’t mean calling what’s wrong right and what’s right wrong. (Isaiah 5:20) This means standing up as Christ did and condemning sin. People cannot know they are in need of a Savior until they know they are sinful men and women. Our laws should help direct people to the understanding of where they have sinned. As one commentator put it, “the law is a right/wrong message machine.”

All of what you just said can be accomplished without the government. Did MTV change culture in the 80's and 90's (and I guess today still) with the government? No, they just used the available medium to communicate their message in a timely and relevant fashion.

The church has basically failed at showing Christ as who he really is - an all loving God that doesn't condone sin, but personally confronts it and then explains what can be done about it. Not once did Jesus appeal to anyone other than God and his followers (other believers, our brothers and sisters) to further his message. But now we are just looking to the government to fix everything, and the _only_ thing it does is drive people away. No, the ends don't justify the means (I'm sure someone will think that), but it does mean that we need to be intelligent about getting to the appropriate end (spreading the Gospel).

[ATrain]

my women bashing comment made the cut. yessssssssss



P.S. Atrain's post was gross

He brought it up...I just finally took the bait

[ATrain]

However, it was probably slightly more graphic than what is appropriate for THIS board...so I went back and took some of it out. Hopefully it still makes some sense.

[SuperJon]

I am saying that Jesus never indicates that we're to base anything off the old law, but rather to spread the gospel using the things he instructed. And that is the Greatest Commandment, the Great Commission, The Beautitudes, and all the other amazing, groundbreaking things that Jesus spoke while on Earth.

Haha, did you steal my notes for what I'm speaking on tomorrow night? Or what we're teaching through October and November?