[ATrain]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it now more expensive to kill someone via death penalty than it is to keep them in prison for life (i.e. attorney's fees through the appeals court process and all sorts of other things).

But expenses aside, personally I am for the death penalty for premeditated murder as well as those who kill b/c they were driving drunk.

[AZjonz]

So members of a minority of the overall population make up a minority of the population on death row while, at the same time, members of the majority of the overall population make up a majority of the population on death row. I fail to see how that constitutes institutional racism. If you've got better statistics to justify your statement, I'd be glad to hear them.
Meanwhile, I've got a statistic that I think bears some value: 100% of the people on death row have been convicted of murder.

If there is a racial bias in the system, then justice cannot be achieved; therefore, we should scrap it until it can be fixed - if ever.

If we could scrap murder at the same time, I'd be all for that.

Alright – well here goes. Black males make up 6% of the US population but 50% of death row. White males make up 37.5% of the population and 50% death row, also. I read stats like these (and other literature on the topic) and I find it disturbing. Do you not?

[whmatthews]

People will find anything to cry about racism. I doubt you'd ever hear anything about racism if people weren't always trying to find something to say is racist.

[AZjonz]

People will find anything to cry about racism. I doubt you'd ever hear anything about racism if people weren't always trying to find something to say is racist.

So you don't have a reply - other than I may be "crying racism". I understand that the race card is quite used and abused, but it’s the death penalty – I don’t think it’s a stretch to examine if there is institutional racism in this case. There are clear signs that this exists.

I very conservative by nature and am for punsihing the guilty, but if there is an appearance of applying the death penalty unfairly, I would think any reasonable person would want to at least examine that.

[LUconn]

you don't think this has anything to do with it?


(these are 1999 figures as they were the quickest to find, but it still illustrates my point)

Obviously poor and undereducated people are going to be more likely to commit these crimes.

[AZjonz]

you don't think this has anything to do with it?


(these are 1999 figures as they were the quickest to find, but it still illustrates my point)

Obviously poor and undereducated people are going to be more likely to commit these crimes.

Never said it didn't. I agree - income levels affect it. too. If anything you are proving more how flawed the application of the death penalty is. Shouldn't the whole thing be examined?

[LUconn]

but the death penalty isn't being applied to them because of their race, or income level, or education level attained. It's because of their crime. Now those last 2 attributes may make someone more or less inclined to commit the crime, but those stats show that a higher % of the black population is in the negative aspect of those traits than the white population. That's what I'm getting at.

[RagingTireFire]

Alright – well here goes. Black males make up 6% of the US population but 50% of death row. ... I read stats like these (and other literature on the topic) and I find it disturbing. Do you not?

Yes, I do find that statistic disturbing. Because it's wrong, misleading and completely irrelevant.
--- Black males make up a much more significant percentage of the US population than 6%.
--- Also, you can't make a comparison by taking one statistical subset (black males) from a large complex population (the overall US population) and then comparing that same subset to a limited population (the male population of death row). Of course, the numbers are going to skew higher. It's mathematically impossible for them not to. Using this logic I could make the argument that there is an institutional racism against white males since they represent a higher population on death row than they do in the overall population.
---In any event, however, black males are still the minority on death row. If there were "institutional racism", not just the majority but the vast majority of people on death row would be black.

Further, you're ignoring the fact that every single person on death row, regardless of skin color, has been convicted of murder.

[AZjonz]

but the death penalty isn't being applied to them because of their race, or income level, or education level attained. It's because of their crime. Now those last 2 attributes may make someone more or less inclined to commit the crime, but those stats show that a higher % of the black population is in the negative aspect of those traits than the white population. That's what I'm getting at.

Ignore my last post. I read through it quick as I was making some energy trades at the same time. I agree with your post, but I'll find the stats that show white murderers get the death penalty less. It will be a while befor I can get back to you.

[El Scorcho]

Alright – well here goes. Black males make up 6% of the US population but 50% of death row. White males make up 37.5% of the population and 50% death row, also. I read stats like these (and other literature on the topic) and I find it disturbing. Do you not?

I do not, especially when viewed against crime data. The number of crimes committed that "justify" the death penalty by black males in heavily populated areas is disproportionate to those committed by those of other races in all areas. What's even more unfortunate is that (almost always) these crimes are being perpetrated against other black males.

That's a problem that goes much deeper than capital punishment. There are major social and cultural issues among large minority populations in urban areas. There are a lot of reasons for them, but the bottom line is that the death penalty statistics you cite are just another symptom of those problems. America can't ignore these problems forever, and the justice system is failing to deal with them effectively. If we continue as we have been, the following article is just a preview of the future of every American city of any significant size...

http://www.laweekly.com/news/news/la-ga ... ing/17861/

[LUconn]

that article is 8 pages long

[Ed Dantes]

So members of a minority of the overall population make up a minority of the population on death row while, at the same time, members of the majority of the overall population make up a majority of the population on death row. I fail to see how that constitutes institutional racism. If you've got better statistics to justify your statement, I'd be glad to hear them.
Meanwhile, I've got a statistic that I think bears some value: 100% of the people on death row have been convicted of murder.

If there is a racial bias in the system, then justice cannot be achieved; therefore, we should scrap it until it can be fixed - if ever.

If we could scrap murder at the same time, I'd be all for that.

Alright – well here goes. Black males make up 6% of the US population but 50% of death row. White males make up 37.5% of the population and 50% death row, also. I read stats like these (and other literature on the topic) and I find it disturbing. Do you not?

Aren't black males seven times more likely to commit violent crimes than white people? If anything, if it is 50-50, that means that blacks are getting off quite easily.

[Ed Dantes]

we must wonder why whites represent 56% of those executed, and blacks 38% (NAACP LDF, Summer 1996) when blacks have committed 47% of all murders, and whites 38%. Whites are executed at rates nearly 50% above their involvement in murder, blacks are executed at rates 20% below their involvement in murder.

[whmatthews]

I just don't see any institutional racism... or any racism at all. If you commit a crime that warrants it, you get the death penalty - black, white, red, yellow, or blue. The only prejudice is the one against the criminal.

[whmatthews]

U.S. Bureau of Justice statistics:

Of the persons executed in 2007:
28 white, 14 black..... twice as many white people.

In 2006:
Of persons under sentence of death in 2006:
-- 1,802 were white
-- 1,352 were black
-- 28 were American Indian
-- 35 were Asian
-- 11 were of unknown race.

More than half of the people on death row are white...

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cp.htm

[RagingTireFire]

-- 11 were of unknown race.

?

[whmatthews]

That's what the website said...... I don't know. Maybe it should be "other"

[El Scorcho]

that article is 8 pages long

And I read all eight pages of it. It's worth it. Especially the parts where they specifically mention Virginia and North Carolina.

[LUconn]

Do hispanics not get executed?

[AZjonz]

Alright – well here goes. Black males make up 6% of the US population but 50% of death row. ... I read stats like these (and other literature on the topic) and I find it disturbing. Do you not?

Further, you're ignoring the fact that every single person on death row, regardless of skin color, has been convicted of murder.

I ignore it becasue it is not germane to the current discussion. I concede that every person on death row has been convicted. It's the penalty part I'm concerned with right now.

[MacGeek]

this whole race thing is retarded.

i wish more states were like texas.

[jmdickens]

when it comes to executions....everyone else has a waiting line....Texas has an express lane

[AZjonz]

Alright – well here goes. Black males make up 6% of the US population but 50% of death row. ... I read stats like these (and other literature on the topic) and I find it disturbing. Do you not?

Yes, I do find that statistic disturbing. Because it's wrong, misleading and completely irrelevant.
--- Black males make up a much more significant percentage of the US population than 6%.
--- Also, you can't make a comparison by taking one statistical subset (black males) from a large complex population (the overall US population) and then comparing that same subset to a limited population (the male population of death row). Of course, the numbers are going to skew higher. It's mathematically impossible for them not to. Using this logic I could make the argument that there is an institutional racism against white males since they represent a higher population on death row than they do in the overall population.
---In any event, however, black males are still the minority on death row. If there were "institutional racism", not just the majority but the vast majority of people on death row would be black.

Further, you're ignoring the fact that every single person on death row, regardless of skin color, has been convicted of murder.

1) Roughly 12% of the US population is black – I determined that 50% of that is male. I got the stats off the US census website.
2) , “you can't make a comparison by taking one statistical subset (black males) from a large complex population (the overall US population) and then comparing that same subset to a limited population (the male population of death row).” Yes you can. It’s an integrity check of the data set you are examining. I see an anomaly that should be explained. Some (yourself included) have made intelligent arguments as to why that is – I’m convinced based on other evidence it has racial problems. Others can’t grasp Critical Legal Theory and reduce it down to “retarded”. I guess we’ll have to type slower for them.
3) Blacks are barely the minority. They do almost represent half. I think it is splitting hairs when we try to go from "majority" to "vast majority".


I do appreciate your comments. I’m not naïve enough to think I will bust out some argument on a message board that will change people’s lives. Having this discussion is important – maybe a little heavy for message boards. This discussion can continue, but maybe it is becoming a moot point?

[mrmacphisto]

I'm wondering what the ratio is of caucasian babies to African-American babies aborted each year and what conclusions we might be able to draw from that.

[Rocketfan]

this whole race thing is retarded.

i wish more states were like texas.

Go to know Sly has now picked an alter ego......congrats.