[RubberMallet]

show me something that i've already made the forgone conclusion that i'm right on and won't change because then, GASP, i'd have to change something.

[RubberMallet]

There are lines that do get drawn, but you're missing the whole crux of the argument. Sexuality is built-in, something you're hardwired for. Other desires...such as the desire to murder, cheat, etc...are not naturally ingrained but must be brought out by circumstance or emotion.

whats hilarious is there is actually more proof for the latter than their is for the former.

[LUconn]

It's not a slippery slope. You're purposely being obtuse to the fact that all sexual sins between 2 consenting adults are equivalent. Based on your quote

"So God creates people with different brain structures so they can have a desire for a companion but then denies them the ability to have that desire fulfilled while allowing others to have it fulfilled? Sorry, He doesn't operate that way.

you're saying that there are no unrighteous desires. That's the most ridiculous thing any bible believing person could say.

[ATrain]

show me something that i've already made the forgone conclusion that i'm right on and won't change because then, GASP, i'd have to change something.

Thus why we go round and round on this board.

[ATrain]

It's not a slippery slope. You're purposely being obtuse to the fact that all sexual sins between 2 consenting adults are equivalent. Based on your quote

"So God creates people with different brain structures so they can have a desire for a companion but then denies them the ability to have that desire fulfilled while allowing others to have it fulfilled? Sorry, He doesn't operate that way.

you're saying that there are no unrighteous desires. That's the most ridiculous thing any bible believing person could say.

No, there are unrighteous desires...I'm not saying its ok for me to go sleep with every gay man I find appealing, just like its not ok for you to go sleep with every straight woman you find appealing. The difference is, you have a way to fulfill the natural desire for sex and companionship whereas - according to your interpretation of scripture - I do not.

[ALUmnus]

My initial request from when I first came out on this board still stands: show me how the Bible has not been misintrepreted by the modern church about homosexuality. I think the church throughout history has also proven itself to be untrustworthy with interpreting the Bible.

Just a couple quick ones, but scholarship (yes, even modern liberal scholarship) proves Biblical interpretation. It's the most scruitinized book in history, and also the most verified book in history. And outside of scholarship, Scripture is a witness to itself.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kev ... sexuality/

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/philosophi ... /#comments

Question, is the sinfulness of homosexuality the only bit that we've misinterpreted? If so, seems awfully convenient. How do we know we can trust any of it?

And it's terribly obvious that you have no interest in an actual discussion when you break into your insulting song of bleating sheep and backwards fundamentalists.

[RubberMallet]

It's not a slippery slope. You're purposely being obtuse to the fact that all sexual sins between 2 consenting adults are equivalent. Based on your quote

"So God creates people with different brain structures so they can have a desire for a companion but then denies them the ability to have that desire fulfilled while allowing others to have it fulfilled? Sorry, He doesn't operate that way.

you're saying that there are no unrighteous desires. That's the most ridiculous thing any bible believing person could say.

No, there are unrighteous desires...I'm not saying its ok for me to go sleep with every gay man I find appealing, just like its not ok for you to go sleep with every straight woman you find appealing. The difference is, you have a way to fulfill the natural desire for sex and companionship whereas - according to your interpretation of scripture - I do not.

the heart of the problem. God isn't being fair. How dare he.

[ALUmnus]

Atrain, I just want it to be clear that no one on here is saying that you can't be gay or that God made you messed up. We're not. We're all born in the image of Adam, and are therefore sin-bearers. And dealing with sin is HARD. But the answer is not to capitulate and pervert God's Word. And it's just going to cause further and further parting from the truth. That's already evident from your post about your summer reading (assuming it wasn't a joke).

Watch some of the videos from Chris Yuan (http://www.ChristopherYuan.com). Put 'Washed and Waiting' on your reading list (http://www.amazon.com/Washed-Waiting-Re ... nd+waiting). Daily repentence and sanctification is our charge, all of us who are born again, not believing the lies of the world, but clinging to the true Word of God.

[ALUmnus]

Also, with regards to fulfilling one's natural urges, from another believer who struggles with homosexual desire: http://www.thetwocities.com/practical-t ... ld-virgin/

[roadkingjim]

I'm going to chime in and give my personal thoughts on this as well... IMO and many others in my circle that being gay is something the world has had for 1000's of years. A few people will judge but the majority IMO won't and leave that duty to God. The bigger issue that hetro and gay people are debating is allowing a same sex marriage. Same sex couples should not be rewarded with the benefits of marriage, because immoral behavior should not be rewarded. It is not a matter of rights or fairness, if the act is immoral, why should that be praised or rewarded? Again the bible and in nature tells us that being homosexual is a deviant practice and "unnatural" if it weren't then God would have given us all the same "plumbing".

Now - is it my place to tell someone on who, what, how and when they want a homosexual relationship with - no, but when it affects the fabric of society it does become my business. It really upsets me when I see on public television acts of homosexuality, material in print such as magazines and newspaper, movies, etc... The gay "society" (that doesn't mean all gays) are wanting to push an agenda and educate that being gay is "okay" as an everyday event and to be considered as such; this is wrong and I don't want to associated with it nor do my friends that have young children. Remember that children and teenagers are a product of their environment and if they see more and more agenda pushing and "attempted education" they will in time think it's okay, which it is not! I can go on and on but won't. I'm hoping anyone reading this is catching my intent.

If a person feels as though they have to be gay, so be it - take those chances and roll the dice at the gates of heaven, but earthly and Godly benefits of marriage and all the spoils and rewards that come with it (because marriage is hard to be successful at as well) don't ask for. Also gays should keep to themselves, parades in south Florida are hard enough knowing they take place but to see gay acts on regular television, etc... is death by a 1000 cuts to society along with all the other B.S. that is happening!

In closing, in America at lease they can accept and practice being gay. In other parts of the world a gay person would be strung up and stoned to death... Isn't that a plus?

[jbock13]

Being gay is no different than any other sin, however.

[roadkingjim]

Being gay is no different than any other sin, however.

Your so right jbock!!

And all of those tear on the fabric of society as well... Some more than others!

[ALUmnus]

Back to the original topic, be sure to note that neither of the two decisions made by the court yesterday touch marriage as it currently stands.

The Prop 8 decision was about legal standing, and the decision has people on both sides unsure as to whether Prop 8 is still the law or not.

The DOMA decision does not kill DOMA, but only strikes down section 3, and addresses legal federal tax status to people in states where same-sex marriage is legal. That's it. The worrying part is the reasoning & logic behind the decision, which is not only murky and moralism at its finest, but invites future legal challenges.

The court did NOT determine if there is a constitutional right to marry, and it has never recognized homosexual relations as a "fundamental right".

[lynchburgwildcats]

I find some of this stuff on here absolutely hilarious. Unless it's written word for word without any leeway to interpret it differently, you don't know how God operates, what he wants, or why he created anything the way he created it. No matter what the religion is, it's the same old argument people have used throughout the course of human history to justify discrimination against females, non-whites, and anyone without the "normal" sexual preference. Hiding behind the shield of religion doesn't excuse hate, bigotry, bullying, and intimidation that people of all faiths have used to justify their sins. Am I accusing any of you of that? Nope, but some of the same arguments I am seeing are some of te same arguments I have heard personally or read was used to prevent equal rights for blacks and women, to prevent interracial marriage, to prevent the abolition of slavery, to justify the trail of tears, and etc.

[RubberMallet]

leave the important discussions for the adults.

[jbock13]

I find some of this stuff on here absolutely hilarious. Unless it's written word for word without any leeway to interpret it differently, you don't know how God operates, what he wants, or why he created anything the way he created it. No matter what the religion is, it's the same old argument people have used throughout the course of human history to justify discrimination against females, non-whites, and anyone without the "normal" sexual preference. Hiding behind the shield of religion doesn't excuse hate, bigotry, bullying, and intimidation that people of all faiths have used to justify their sins. Am I accusing any of you of that? Nope, but some of the same arguments I am seeing are some of te same arguments I have heard personally or read was used to prevent equal rights for blacks and women, to prevent interracial marriage, to prevent the abolition of slavery, to justify the trail of tears, and etc.

There's a ton of hay in that straw man you're building.

[RubberMallet]

he's wikipediaing that right now

[LUconn]

Sometimes shuck has me questioning my stance on eugenics.

[JK37]

Pretty sure I never chose to be attracted to men...

Possibly subconsciously?

Two very close frineds of mine are godly men who at one or more times in their lives greatly struggled with the sin of homosexual acts. While there are certainly differences in each of their stories, BOTH men claim they never made a conscious decision to pursue men. BOTH men said that their attractions to men felt as natural to them as breathing. As fa as they tell me, both of these men - now married and with children - do not act upon such desires but still struggle with the temptation if they do not guard against them. Example: one of them told me that though he does not commit homosexual acts any longer, simple TV commercials of half-clothed and muscular men that none of us would notice, tempt him strongly. He believes the temptation will never leave, just as my temptation toward women will never change. But he also believes, as I agree, that it is acting upon this temptation that is wrong.

ATrain, it confuses me that you make the distinction biblically that it would be wrong for either of us to sleep with any man or woman we want, but you do not dinstinguish between homosexual and heterosexual acts. You base your position on the former on the Bible, but not the latter. How can you do that?

We each have a sin nature. But the individual sins with which each of us struggle do vary. And those variances can certainly ebb and flow in response to nurturing circumstances and surroundings. Why could that ebb or flow not be subconscious?

We cannot make moral judgments based on feelings.

[JK37]

...show me how the Bible has not been misintrepreted by the modern church about homosexuality.

I'm not sure what that would prove, but all I will say is that the church has indeed mininterpreted the Bible in regards to homosexuality - if not in word, certainly in deed. But how the church interprets the Bible on the topic of homosexuality is irrelevant.

The responsibility of biblical interpretation is not given to the church; it is given to each individual believer. The church - with its pastoral leadership, council and fellowship - is one of many tools of which a believer may avail himself throughout the task of biblical interpretation.

[Yacht Rock]

The Prop 8 decision was about legal standing, and the decision has people on both sides unsure as to whether Prop 8 is still the law or not.

The legal standing issue is a huge one because basically it means that the state, through inaction, can override the will of the people. As I said earlier, when the government refuses to represent the people, what do you have left? Yes, you can elect new leaders, but, there needs to be a legal advocate system in place to protect voters when the state refuses to defend propositions voted in by the populace. Even Gavin Newsom, who set off the same sex marriage firestorm in California by allowing same sex marriage in San Francisco has admitted that there may be negative legal ramifications for the proposition system as a whole if we continue down a path like this.

[lynchburgwildcats]

leave the important discussions for the adults.

You mean the adults trying to argue that sexual preference is a choice? LOL.

[RubberMallet]

leave the important discussions for the adults.

You mean the adults trying to argue that sexual preference is a choice? I chortle audibly..

see, you aren't even paying attention...like a jr higher.

[lynchburgwildcats]

see, you aren't even paying attention...like a jr higher.

Oh really?

Pretty sure I never chose to be attracted to men...

Possibly subconsciously?

Looks like you aren't paying attention...

[LUconn]

I think we've pretty well established choice being unsettled and debatable yet completely irrelevant.