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#311102
JK37 wrote:
jmdickens wrote:I hope God can use him...just not at Liberty
Did you ever take a class taught by Ed Hindson? I did, and I learned a lot. I'm glad God continued using him at Liberty.
Ed Hindson left Liberty for a period of time. It was a very different situation.
#311105
SumItUp wrote:Ed Hindson left Liberty for a period of time. It was a very different situation.
Indeed, a VERY different one. But God was still able to use him. And, maybe a little selfishly, I'm glad God's using him coincided in part with my time at LU.
#311165
well what if Joshua Moon was rehired??? Would you be okay with that??? I think he is still a very capable teacher despite his shortcomings???

Dr. Caner even lied about his Ph.D. that is a big ethical issue with me. He lied about credentials, including his own background with the religion of Islam. He is even been discredited about his knowledge of Islam. I know we don't teach Islam, but its still the same to me. Its about principles. Academically he has tarnished the seminary. I still believe that LU is keeping him because of the numbers....We have to recognize LU is all about numbers. I am not saying that (the desire for numbers) is wrong, but we should atleast acknowledge that is what LU is after.
By thepostman
#311179
jmdickens wrote:well what if Joshua Moon was rehired??? Would you be okay with that??? I think he is still a very capable teacher despite his shortcomings???
wow...just wow...do you think about things before typing them out...this comparison is completely over the top....you have to see the difference..right??
#311186
come on...im just playing devil's advocate. I agree moon should not be rehired. But, I still believe LU is just covering for Caner. We are just trying to look past his mistakes because of his popularity
By thepostman
#311187
maybe so, but they did the investigation...and it is what it is...I just think its funny reading what you have to say and then I read some of the caner flock talk on facebook..its like 2 totally different worlds...

I still think the punishment fits the crime
#311189
jmdickens wrote:i know im the minority. I believe we all have the freedom to speak openly about how we feel, despite our oppositions to those feelings
Maybe you are in the minority here, but this is only FF- and there is plenty of kool-aid to go around.

jmdickens wrote:Dr. Caner even lied about his Ph.D. that is a big ethical issue with me. He lied about credentials, including his own background with the religion of Islam. He is even been discredited about his knowledge of Islam. I know we don't teach Islam, but its still the same to me. Its about principles. Academically he has tarnished the seminary.
It is unbelievable that folks can't see through the politics of this; at any normal school, Caner would be fighting for any job, even if he had tenure. Wow- good thing we are at a Christian school, where mercy is handed out readily (only to the popular, though)! I was excited about the possibility of LU really strengthening their academics, but this decision, along with some others this summer indicate that academics are on the back burner, for now.
#311191
If he lied about a PhD, or more importantly, a ThD, then I would support him not coming back. I've never heard of that happening and it was never mentioned until now in this whole debacle. The controversy has been his upbringing as a child. His doctorate degree has never been a point of issue. If that's the case, I'd like to see you give a little more detail on it because that changes it completely.
#311196
JK37 wrote:
jmdickens wrote:I believe we all have the freedom to speak openly about how we feel
You are only entitled to an opinion if you can defend it.
lets hear your defense?? ive given plenty for mine
#311197
SumItUp wrote:
JK37 wrote:
jmdickens wrote:I believe we all have the freedom to speak openly about how we feel
You are only entitled to an opinion if you can defend it.
Really?
Yes, absolutely! The whimps who spout whatever idea they please, and then take offence when challenged to answer to questions about it and cower to defend it! - they would do well to simply keep their pansy thoughts to themselves.

What good is any opinion if it can't be defended?!
#311201
jmdickens wrote:lets hear your defense?? ive given plenty for mine
There's two parts to this request: my defense, and yours (or lack thereof).

First, I defend the decision of Liberty's administration to demote (rather than terminate) Dr. Caner on the basis that while his documented offences do preclude him from leading other faculty members, they do not infringe upon his ability to teach students. He was wrong to allow the false presumptions of his past to continue uncorrected, and to in some cases aid in their propogation. Therefore, he should - and has - been demoted. But his offences do not limit his knowledge of and expertise within the subjects upon which he will continue to teach. You've yet to prove that his depth of knowledge was based on his presumed heritage - now known to be false at least in part. You also suggest that he was retained due at least in part to his popularity among the students. I counter that, if his popularity is due at least in part to his abilities as an orator and/or as a teacher, and if said popularity leads students to pay more attention to his teaching (which can be presumed to have at least some validity, considering he wouldn't be teaching at all otherwise), then does it not make sense to retain his services, since he still possesses academic value?

Secondly, your defense has yet to prove that Caner is no longer valuable to the University, and the students it serves (as I have shown otherwise above). It also included the ludicrous likening of Dr. Caner's proven offences to those sexually predatory ones committed by Moon. You also have failed to yet substantiate the claim that one or more of his doctorates was not legitimately earned, and have insinuated that his doctoral status is moot - all this despite requests to do so. One is left ponder why you've ignored these requests...

Academic crimes are far different than legal ones (such as those perpetrated by Moon). And you have yet to even prove academic ones occurred. (Untruths about his past are personal, not academic.) If you are assuming he reached his place in seminary academia on the basis of his past, the only crime here would be that the leaders of an academic institution only focused on his presumed heritage in his hiring process. This didn't happen, and you can't prove that it did. Yet again, you arr promoting a "good ol' boy" conspiracy theory, for which you have stated no proof. Opinions and feelings are not proof, and lack of substantiation renders them obsolete.

Lastly - and I repeat this as carefully as I can: I would not presume to question beyond reason the men whom God has entrusted to handle this delicate situation, who surely asked numerous times for God's wisdom in its handling (see James 1 for further explanation for how God "liberally" responds to such requests for understanding), and who have seen fit to handle it in the way they have.
#311202
jmdickens wrote:i hope you know...i have no problems expressing myself to higher ups...go ask randy dunton about that
Never in my life have I considered Randy Dunton a "higher up." You are not improving yourself by claiming such status on his behalf.
#311214
As I mentioned in the other thread, let's keep this focused on the facts and avoid getting personal. This is a opic that generates emotion on both sides. Let's keep it directed at the topic.

The questions over Dr. Caner's doctoral status came from a few in academic circles who consider a Th.D to be a step below a Ph.D even though both are considered terminal degrees. When some others referenced Caner as a Ph.D he didn't correct them. Frankly this really seems like a stretch. Since both are considered academic equals it would be nitpicking to make an issue out of this aspect of the discussion. No one has stated that Caner represented himself as having a degree he didn't possess.

This should be focused on the wrongs that can be attributed to the man. I feel this can be a really healthy discussion if it stays within those boundaries.
#311223
My only question moving forward is; "Is he qualified to be leading students?" From a academic perspective, absolutely. From a Christian heart perspective, currently, no. He has not formally apologized, and I feel he has not reasoned out why he said the things he did, the heart issue, if you will. He betrayed people's trust. It takes time to earn that trust back. He should start by apologizing and asking for forgiveness. Then, he should take some time away from LU to search his heart and God's heart, and spend time with Godly men and women in deep discussion to try to understand why he lied. That means being open and exposing of his heart's motives, both good and bad. Once he understands the consequences his lie had not only on his heart, but others, and has worked through the feelings, and built a stronger relationship with God because of it, then I believe he can return to teaching students.

He is obviously still quite capable of teaching students, but as of right now, he cannot lead them, nor should he be allowed to, in my opinion. At least not until the hard work of expsoing his heart is done and the feelings that will come from that. Unfortunately, I don't think that is going to happen.
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