[4everfsu]

I have to agree with Tally on this one. Standards? What academic or christians? LU was founded as a college to train christian workers to reach the world, pastors, youth majors were among the early majors. So starting out no one would ever have thought back then we would have a nursing major, engineering school in the future, division 1-AA program, etc. If you had told me back in the 1970s we would have a hockey ring or hockey team, I would have laughed at you. So we are growing as a University and will continue to.
As far as growing too fast, I would not worry about it the infrastructures will come.
If Jerry had not dreamed there would be no LU as we know it today, no liberty mtn, etc.
Standards, dont get too hung up on them, I remember another group in the Bible called the Pharisees had them when wanting to compare theirs to others, etc.

[El Scorcho]

Still waiting for clarification so I can finish my comment...

[TallyW]

Hoops... you're proving my point every time you post. Please take the time to read since you've asked for this discussion.

One of my biggest points is that you're lame for even trying to start this conversation. Not simply a question... but the way you answered the first few posts on this thread show your mindset.

None of us care that you chose Samford... I'm certain there are hundreds of kids who chose LU over Samford for various reasons. Also, you entered Samford on probation... it's safe to say you aren't one of the National Merit Scholars we spoke of earlier.

For the record you had 12 NMS for 2005 which is what your website lists here: http://www.samford.edu/groups/unirel/ca ... _Basic.pdf
Apparently 30 finalists attend LU according to a prior post.

LU has been around for all of 36 years while Samford has been around for 166 years. You really think your 2500 undergrad enrollment compares with Liberty's 10,000? You really think that our top 2,500 kids can't compete with your enrollment? I'm confident that our top 700 graduates a year are as equipped or more equipped for success than those at other small 'christian' schools.

According to your website, half of your total enrollment is at the graduate level. The average age of a student on your campus is 22. Ours is likely 20. As an institution making an impact, I doubt you can touch our DLP program and highly unlikely that in a few years we'd even mention or athletic programs in the same breath. You will educate far less people over the course of history than will a 25,000 student Liberty University.

As for questions about if we can keep academic integrity as a large institution, just ask UVA or VATech or any other Major school. Of course if we were a school of 1,000 and we didn't have to add in those pesky kids who didn't have the highest GPA, we'd 'rank' much better. But alas the vision of the University is to expand both deep and wide to make our reach vast and our impact meaningful. Students at LU believe they are a part of an institution here to serve the world and Christ's Kingdom, not the 700 best students who wish to enroll next year.

I'm not bothered by "facts". I'm bothered by ignorant people who come off arrogant. The 'facts' are that we're more diverse, much larger, much younger, already a D-1 institution that is growing every year b/c contrary to your opinion a lot of Christian students WANT to be here. We have an extremely good student life, we're located in a very safe city that is growing as a direct impact of our University, we offer programs in just about every area of study you can imagine... The climate of having the church and school so closely linked (although challenging at times) is very unique and allows for a built in spiritual thermostat for the entire University.

We don't hand out bibles at graduation, we hand out a spiritual foundation that is unmatched in this country. We hand out some of the best years of a students life and we hand out a sense of optimism that just a handful of people can still change the world (as evidenced by that entire mountain and the level of University that rests on it after just 36 years).

As for the Monday morning quarterbacking about the "best" way to do it... I'd say it's safe to say that nothing like Liberty has ever been done and we've exploded on the scene... at the end of the day it leaves people like you with insecurity about whether or not you made the right choice.

Our law school was accredited faster than any in HISTORY. I'm certain a few future governors will take some classes there as well.

You're on our board talking about how much better you think your school is. I love how you didn't answer my points. I suppose those weren't facts? The fact that our ratio of minorities doubles yours even though the city in which your school rests is a city of 77% AFRICAN AMERICAN... I bet that goes over well in your own "Jerusalem"...

The fact remains that Samford has been around for 166 years and the best you can name for graduates are the newly elected Governor? Wow. What a great school. Let's line them up against Harvard and Yale right away... Your standards for entry have proven to make a big difference in the product you're putting out.

[thepostman]

For the record Libety has raised its standards because they are getting so many applications every year they had to....its true Liberty once practiced "open enrollment" but no longer...I have heard of people getting rejected now because of grades....

Now are there standards as high as UVA or VTech or this Samford school(which by the way I have never even heard of until now)??? Well, no....but its a decent school...considering we have only been around since 1971 like Tally said, we're doing alright

Anyways..no need to make this into a bigger issue then it really is....

[hoopsmalone]

Tally, it just totally baffles me how you accuse me of being the arrogant Pharisee type, then you choose the route of a personal attack and you proceed to mock my intelligence with your comment about my conditional acceptance. I don't recall claming to be a merit scholar anywhere in my previous post. I'm blessed to be working as a journalist, which just so happens to be what I majored in. Only 11% of the population works in their desired career field.
I won't ever claim to be a genious, a national merit scholar, or anything more than an average joe. I was born three months pre-mature, suffered heart failure , a collapsed lung, and a brain stroke, and it's only by God's grace that I survived and progressed as far as I have. I know that I received a tremendous education that prepared me for the real world and provided me with vital tools for my career. I.E., we just hired a new reporter who graduated from uf, which has one of the best j schools in the country. She spent almost an entire week in training, while I was able to start from the moment I sat down at my desk.
The only reason I even started posting about samford's reputation is because its spirtual and academic integerity were questioned. If you're truly an example of the typical liberty product, you're simply re-enforcing a negative sterotype of the judgmental athmosphere that's often associated with certain christian colleges, and that's unfortunate, because I would like to think that your student population isn't that hard-headed.Did it ever occur to you that perhaps the reason our average age is 22 that since such a high percentage, nearly 40% of our students opt for law, divinity or pharmacy,it raises the overall average age. I guess you failed to actually consider that factor. You also cited our 12 NMS scholars to your 36, which is obviously three times as many, but you didn't account for the fact that your sample size of students is more than three times the size of ours.
The funniest part about your diatribe is when you say "The fact remains that Samford has been around for 166 years and the best you can name for graduates are the newly elected Governor? Wow. What a great school...." I chose gov. Crist as an example because he was one of the immediate grads who came to mind, and I'm a resident of Florida. I don't have the time to sort through our entire record book.
You also go on to slam our athletics, we produced the winningest coach in college football history (Bowden), we have the fourth-highest academic compliance/graduation record in the nation- (It was Yale, Princeton, Holy Cross, William & Mary, Samford and Ironically, we were followed by Stanford , we're in the process of constructing a new arena and we're on the brink of joining the southern conference- the premier 1-AA conference. In fact, you can expect that annoucnment to be made by this weekend.
Of course, all I'm doing is taking the bait you set for your trap. I don't need to sit here and waste the few extra minutes I have in my day to discuss hypotheticals and ideal situations about liberty with you. I can tell you that I'm a proud graduate of my college, I'm not slamming liberty (i think that's about the 10th time i've had to clarify that) and I'm simply wondering what all of your thoughts were about expansion, since we're doing a minature on our own. Somehow , that all evolved into this supposed personal vendetta against your university!

As for diversity, it's true that we don't have a high percentage of minorities on campus, but I don't see how that's even a related topic. We're not trying to please the Al Sharptons and Jesse Jacksons with an affirmative action-styled approach to our admissions process, and I certainly know Jerry isn't either, so I'm not sure why you even brought that up. What are you implying? Are you suggesting my college is racist? What was the purpose of that rant?

TW, for liberty's sake, I really hope that you're not a micrcosm of the student and alumni population.
I'm here to talk about the future of christian universities in America, and I used two colleges that i'm very familiar with as reference points. I'm so sorry to have offended you so deeply.
SO MUCH FOR THE HOPE OF A CIVILIZED CONVERSATION!

[hoopsmalone]

Still waiting for clarification so I can finish my comment...

I was actually referring to both, the christian environment, atmosphere, in and out of the classroom.

[TallyW]

Hoops. I wish you well. I really do.

I also hope you'll look at each of your posts on this thread to see how disingenuous you are. I wasn't the first to point out that it's nearly impossible to take your comments as anything but divisive and attacking Liberty.

I'm sorry about your past health problems. I'm glad you're doing well. I wish you continued success. Slamming Liberty however will not contribute to that success.

It appears you get insecure about aptitude. While on one hand you get frustrated with me calling you out on your probationary period... on the other hand you talk about how you're better than your co-worker from a good school??? Wow.

My point about the many issues I brought up INCLUDING race is that Liberty prepares you for far more than a job. Yes race should be brought up. The facts are that MOST Christian colleges are small and MOST treat minorities poorly. LU has been working towards improving and I'd say that 21% speaks for itself compared to Samford's 10%. I don't have to elaborate. I also wouldn't say that to be more diverse than 90% white means you're catering to Jessie Jackson.

To your point about age... YES I took into account your graduate program. You can name the departments to make it sound better but the point is the same, half of your enrollment is graduate. That equates to an average age of 22. Again, my point is that our student bodies are different... the Universities have different priorities. Remember the song "deep and wide"... LU has a desire to make a much larger footprint. Samford wants a small footprint with a lot of quality. LU is constantly improving the quality but a decision has been made to get to the size we need first and work on the quality as we go.

It doesnt' matter how many times you say you're not slamming Liberty... read your posts... you obviously were attempting to present two divergent tracks. By making references to us being Baylor and Samford being Furman... then sending a link to how great you are??? c'mon... you're not slamming us? You're right. You aren't slamming us. We have a great thing going. Enjoy the 'premier' 1-AA conference, the 5,000 total students, the 90% white, 166 year old, 280 million dollar endowed University. I'm glad to be a part of the school not settling for 1-AA, 10,000 on campus undergraduate and 15,000 DLP, 21% minority, 36 year old, broke University I'm apart of...

[jimflamesfan]

Hoops, are you worried about what college your kids will attend? (You said, "I fear that by the time I have kids and they're old enough to attend college, they won't be able to afford a quality, christian college education.")

I can understand that being a concern. Schools are getting more expensive...and private schools will probably always be more expensive than state schools. However, as an LU graduate that transferred from a branch campus of the University of Pittsburgh, I thought the two schools were comparable as far as academics.

But as far as your kids...I think it is best that you model your faith in front of them...and then give them the freedom to chose their own college. I think some of the kids that hated being at LU were there only because their parents forced them to go. I'm sure this happens at other Christian colleges as well.

I chose to go to LU, because I wanted the Christian atmosphere, not because my parents wanted me to go. There are other Christians that want to go to secular schools to be a witness. Don't worry about that decision...let your kids make that decision when it's time.

[hoopsmalone]

"It appears you get insecure about aptitude. While on one hand you get frustrated with me calling you out on your probationary period... on the other hand you talk about how you're better than your co-worker from a good school??? Wow."

You simply didn't understand my point because you failed to see the context. I'm not claiming to be smarter than my co-worker, I was using it as an example of how I was better prepared for certain aspects in my job. Samford equipped me with the tools for application, as any solid university should. I think a major problem with large and or state schools is that students miss-out on the hands on approach. As for the Furman-Samford and Liberty-Baylor analogy, I was using that as part of my overall question in all of this- can you expand to that size, without sacrificing certain moral and academic standards? None of these were loaded points or questions, but you persist and imply that they were. The only thing i'm trying to provoke is honest, open conversation about the future of christian college education.

[Sly Fox]

Wow, how did I miss this thread today?

Just take alook at the logo at the top of the screen and I think you will understand our passion and our defensive stance to your initial post, hoopsmalone. I realize it may not have been intended to attack our school, but it sure came across as such. As a young journalist, I like your willingness to be thought provoking even if your crafting could use some seasoning.

One of my uncles is head of the Art Department at Palm Beach Atlantic and another is head of biology department at Cedarville. So I have a great deal of familiarity with both of those schools as well as others such as Baylor & TCU here in Texas. Suffice it to say that we have very different missions than these other schools. All of them have purposes and may be perfect fits for many students. But none of them have taken Liberty's path which has seen umparalleled growth.

I take great umbrage at the complaints by many current students about an alleged inability of the school to maintain this constant growth. History has proven that mindset to be flawed. The school will continue to grow and the infrastructure will constantly be a halfstep behind. But somehow it adds to the excitement of the LU experience.

PS - Tell Jack he needs to get postingon this board and quit just lurking.

[El Scorcho]

I was actually referring to both, the christian environment, atmosphere, in and out of the classroom.

I see.

Well, to be quite honest, I'm of the preference that Liberty seek to train young champions for Christ, whether or not the already have a relationship with Him. As I previously stated, that topic has proven to be a divisive one in the past, but that just happens to be where I fall. What you think that means for Liberty or says about Liberty is entirely a matter of opinion. I don't think that it will have a great effect on the school one way or another as the teachings and mission of the school haven't changed over the last ten years that I've been here. Those ten years have seen the bulk of the growth that the school has experienced, and despite all of the cosmetic changes, it's still very much Liberty University. The stuff that makes the university what it is, is never going to change. In fact, I'd venture to say that when Liberty changes is when Liberty will see enrollment and success start to fall off.

We are where we are because we're different. I don't think anyone is looking to change that. Different is what's driving all of this growth, not lowered academic standards, contrary to what some may believe. This whole Red State/Blue State division in the country has really turned out to be beneficial for a school that's so obviously on one side. Everything I've seen says that the cultural shift in this country is what's driving our increased enrollment. Believe me, we had to turn away a lot more applications last Fall than we ever have before, and everyone here considers that a good thing. We're finally getting to be selective. So, if anything, we're much more selective now after the growth than we've ever been before, because we have more to choose from.

[SumItUp]

Obviously there is too much testosterone in this thread.

I received a very good education at LU. Liberty will remain a Christian univiersity because it is distinctly different from others. There are many great Christian colleges and/or universities across the US. One of the reasons that it is different is how The University protects itself from becoming another traditional academic institution with Christian roots is their staff. Liberty has men and women of God that want to minister through teaching. However, unlike other institutions, there is no tenure for teachers. Each teacher signs a one-year contract. During the course of the year, if their teaching counters the mission of the school, they will be dismissed, paid for the rest of their contract and not rehired. Any Christian school should consider this as a starting point if they want to remain Christian.

The VISION that God gave to Jerry Falwell was to build a campus to train "Champions for Christ". The goal was not to create the greatest academic institution with Christian influence, but to teach the Word of God and give the students a Christian worldview that allows them to impact the world for Christ in whatever they do. In the process, the school has continued to do amazing things.

Hoops, to answer your questions:

1/ Yes, a Chrisitan atmosphere is attainable with 10,000 or 25,000 or 100,000 students. The number of people does not create a Christian atmosphere. It is created when people who love Christ, read His Word daily, talk to Him regularly, and live their lives in a way that is honoring and pleasing to Him.

2/ Yes, Liberty can and will maintain high academic standards. However, it is important to remember that the ultimate purpose of Liberty is to train "Champions for Christ".

3/ Yes, there is a team of recruiters that I am sure wants every available tool to recruit the best students. My hope is that the nation's brightest Christian graduates will pray to God for wisdom that they choose the place where He wants them to be.

Hoops if I understand your statement correctly, you do not have any children yet. Do not fear about your future children's college education. When you do have children, enjoy them, teach them the ways of the Lord. Help them to understand how to find God's will in their life. If you can do that in the 18 years that they are in your home, you will have taught them more than they could ever receive with a degree at ANY University.

[Fumblerooskies]

Great stuff, sumitup...
...One great thing about LU is the interview process for the full-time on campus professors. All go through a theological committee interview to confirm the candidate is of the Liberty mindset and truely ascribes to the Christian World View. As long as the university continues along that path with the hiring process, it is quite possible to grow...and grow big...while maintaining our Christian education philosophy.

Yes...even at 5,000...or 25,000....there are going to be students who come to school as non-believers...but what better mission for the university? Some may ridicule the admission standards...but so what? Once here, the students must still do the work. I ask...was Jesus Christ concerned with standards? Nope...look whom He associated with...the common man, the working man...the working girl. No reason to be elitist...Christian education for all who wish.

[PAmedic]

I have to agree with Tally on this one. Standards? What academic or christians? LU was founded as a college to train christian workers to reach the world, pastors, youth majors were among the early majors. So starting out no one would ever have thought back then we would have a nursing major, engineering school in the future, division 1-AA program, etc. If you had told me back in the 1970s we would have a hockey ring or hockey team, I would have laughed at you. So we are growing as a University and will continue to.

arrghhh!!!!

c'mon now!

DI

as in, Division I

[PAmedic]

[belcherboy]

VERY interesting topic. By the way, congrats on beating Alabama last night. I have two of my basketball players that are freshman at Samford this year and they called me to tell me last night.

Anyhow, my personal observations of Samford is that they are: (This is just an observation from far away)

1) Very strong academically, but must be very exclusive to achieve this (high ACT/SAT).
2) Are quite a bit more liberal than Liberty (not in a non Biblical way, just MUCH looser on their rules)
3) They are very competitive athletically


My observations of Liberty since graduation (2000 graduate)

1) Have become more liberal (which is VERY good. No more ties, and other rules are starting to make a little more sense)
2) They have underachieved in several sports (Never made the playoffs in football?? That is pathetic) but had some great successes in others. They are dedicated to creating a world class athletic program. (at least financially)
3) Very open academically. They wish to give ANYONE a chance (of course this has changed somewhat because they don't have room to take everyone anymore). I like that they give people of weaker academic ability a chance, but it does hurt their overall scores. If Jerry gets his way, he will have a billion $ endowment and anyone who wishes to attend will be given enough scholarship money to attend. I think this creates an AWESOME mix of people to experience college with.
4) Spiritual requirements (classes, convo, among other things) really set them apart from the vast majority of schools half their size and bigger. The people that are brought in to speak at Liberty are AMAZING! Ranging from christian leaders, to political leaders, to those who lead in the business world. Because of Falwell's connections, I'm not sure ANY university can compete with this.
5) They will be 20,000+ one day, making their influence much broader. We will see if they can continue to raise the academic quality during this growth. I have been very pleased with the increase of the quality of education since I attended, in spite of the huge enrollment increases.

I'll talk to my boys a little bit more and post some more thoughts.

[LUconn]

I'm not trying to make this a liberty vs. Samford argument.

I know that almost every major publication that I've checked, from the princeton top 350, to Barrons guide and U.S. News and World Report (Which uses eight different factors into account, including graduation rate, % of freshman from top 25% of class, etc), all rank us among the best schools in the south region (Masters). US News and WR has included us in its top 15 each year for 15 or 16 consecutive years, and I've never found LU up there. Their latest one had had Liberty as fourth tier. We have an endowment of 280 million, a state of the art science center, Cumberland law school which has produced several governors, including current Fla gov Charlie Crist. We also have a great pharmacy school and our school of education (See Betsy Rodgers- named 2003 national the Teacher of the year by the whitehouse).

Just thought I'd point out that this is the post that got everybody riled up. And it was all in the same post.

[hoopsmalone]

LUCONN- That post you just copied was in response to cider jim, who was the first to start asking for comparisons.

[PAmedic]

more importantly- no one complimented me on the pit bull pic

[thesportscritic]

more importantly- no one complimented me on the pit bull pic

good job medic. does that make you feel better?

[mrich]

I have a question about Samford. We have been talking about PBA. I have a cousin and several friends that go there since I am from the West Palm Beach area, and I am almost positive that there profs do not have to be believers or sign a statement of faith. Is Samfor the same, or is there some sort of standard.

[bigsmooth]

the only things that needs to happen, is have a top notch facilities staff, that will maintain our buildings. LU has been famous for buliding something nice and letting it fall apart. i have zero problem with our growth if the facilities are maintianed and the growth is managed smart. as far as moving everything to the mountain...that was jerry's dream, so how can you fault him for acheving that?

[PAmedic]

good job medic. does that make you feel better?

I have been validated.

thank you

[Sly Fox]

I can tell you from direct knowledge that hiring believers is a priority at PBA. But I don't know whether or not they sign anything in such regard.

As for Samford, I had been under the impression that they were following the Furman path. I"m glad to hear they haven't thrown in the towel Biblically as of yet. Baylor has fought hard in recent years to right their ship. But its tough with tenured professors once you drift too far left.

[El Scorcho]

Booooooo tenure!