[alum82]

You are so entrenched in your anti-American theology that you resort to twisting the facts of every point I make to fit your world view. This scares me. You seem to be unable to understand the concept that a Christian can be a citizen and, as such, may have fiduciary duties to governments and to corporations and must honor those fiduciary responsibilities whether the actions of the government or the corporation are just or not the actions of the government or the corporation (a division of gov) are just or not. And I did not say that, if we are at war with another nation, it changes the way we treat civilians of the other nation. I said, if you were a soldier and you encounted another soldier on the battlefield, you can't just turn the other cheek -- DUHH -- whether you are a Christian or not. The rest of your first paragraph makes no sense and completely misunderstands my point. I am only saying Christians have to be good citizens, we have to serve in the military. We have to be real people, like everyone else. The difference is how we treat others in our personal relationships.

DeTocqueville meant good morally. He was referring to the way Americans treated others how they would want to be treated. Americans inherited slavery from European monarchs and, even though they had no idea how to assimilate slaves into their society, they began immediately attempting to make it happen as early as 1787 because they knew it was wrong. The legislation forbidding the importation of slaves that was proposed in 1787 was delayed by a treaty but was passed in 1807. Less than six decades later, European slavery was banned in North America. Southerners fought it because their economy depended on it and they thought their society would be thrown into a state of chaos if it ended (slaves outnumbered whites, I believe). They were wrong and most of them moved on and lived in racial harmony.

Americans have done more to help those in need around the world than any other people in history. They have made much better use of the land than the Indians before them and the Indians have benefitted. There is no way the world can afford to give up a land mass the size of America to allow a small number of people to hunt and fish. Give me a break.

You focus on the few "bad" things America has done and ignore the good which far outweighs the bad. You sound like the anti-American professors that teach at Harvard and Yale. Jesus did mean what he said about Caesar. He distanced himself from Caesar and acknowledged that governments must do certain things that we as Christians should never do in our private lives. Read the Old Testament and the history of the people of Israel. They fought wars in God's name. You confuse organized religion with the true Church. You have some real problems.

[jbock13]

I'm selling popcorn for $5 a box if anyone would like to purchase some while watching this

[kiltsareitchy07]

I'm not anti-American, and in my post I said that I'm not saying that we shouldn't be good citizens. I vote and I pay taxes just like you do, and in no way do I hate this country. That being said, I'm also not scared to look at it critically. And I'll tell you what, this country has done some pretty messed up stuff, just like every other country that has ever existed. On the flip side, Americans have done some great good here and around the world too, as many other countries have. That's why I asked what makes us so special or distinct that we, as opposed to anyone else, should be considered special. Second, I resent the idea that just because I'm hesitant to equate America's mission with God's mission that I'm "anti-American." From an historical perspective, it makes me really nervous when states use the principles of Christianity to justify all sorts of heinous stuff, and that applies across the board from Crusades to Inquisition to Indian Removal. So, once again, the attempt to have a rational discussion about politics turns into an invective, with accusations of anti-Americanism and the assertion that I "have problems." You've never met me, and I've only critiqued your ideas, never you personally. For the record, I'm also nothing like "those professors" at Harvard and Yale because I believe in the Living God. But I guess name calling and broad sweeping generalizations are the name of the game for political discussions now-a-days. I guess the point I was trying to raise, asking where Christ fits into this whole discourse of nationalism and self-congratulation, has gone totally by the boards. Peace.

[alum82]

I am not going to repeat myself so I will refer you back to my previous posts. I never equated America's mission with God's mission and I never said you were anti-American because you don't think the two missions are one and the same. Too nice outside to discuss further. Have a great weekend.

[4everfsu]

If I ever have to go to war, I will pick Alum82 to be on my side. Just saying ....

[4everfsu]

He was still in charge of operation from his villa. Like I said earlier, the snake had its head removed.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54508.html

[ToTheLeft]

Alum, you're getting a bit too personal there. Nothing kilts said was out of line, certainly nothing to indicate they have "problems".

I tend to agree with kilts. I feel like nationalism should not interfere with our relationship with Christ. America is no more "chosen" than any other nation.

[jbock13]

Alum, you're getting a bit too personal there. Nothing kilts said was out of line, certainly nothing to indicate they have "problems".

I tend to agree with kilts. I feel like nationalism should not interfere with our relationship with Christ. America is no more "chosen" than any other nation.

Agreed. I posted about this eallier but I decided not to get involved.

[thepostman]

There is a huge difference between being happy that your country finally was able to get a high level target and celebrating in the streets because a man is dead....I am so proud of our country for finally getting this guy. He did not deserve to continue the presuit of his mission. I think we did the right thing....however, celebrating the death of a man that will be spending eternity in hell is not something us as Christians should be doing. I highly doubt God is up in heaven saying, "finally! I get to send another man to hell!!"....if that is how you view the God of the Bible I question what Bible you are reading...

God does not take pleasure in sending his creation to hell, he is just so it happens, but nowhere in the scripture will you see Him celebrating over a man/woman dying and going to hell...

[Liberty Rules]

We celebrated the end of WWII, both in Europe and the Pacific, after the respective deaths of Hitler and the Atomic Bombs. Yes, that was the end of the war but this war is so different that there will likely not be a VE/VJ Day. This was years coming and long overdue. What did you honestly expect the American people to do?

For the naysaysers, I understand your heart but give a little here. There will be idiots in any crowd but the vast majority of Americans are good and decent people who celebrated because of the death of this SOB represented a victory for the most compassionate and decent nation in the history of the world.

Many Christian naysayers obviously do not understand war.

Your viewpoints are like saying that soldiers should not be trained to say "Kill, kill kill without mercy." What you don't understand is that in combat you need to have that mindset. It's war and if you fail, you will hesitate at the moment of truth and then you die, and then so does your buddy. Then bad people win and create oppression. It's ok to be motivated and even somewhat celebratory in war so that we can get back to living in the peace the God would PREFER us to live in.

You should also consider the affects of the "Jesus would never have anyone killed" comments have on our fighting men/women. No wonder our soldiers returning home would rather go to a bar than go to a church. Why would they go to church when there are so many people there who a-would never do what they do but then b-have the spiritual gall to question what they do and how they do it?

At least at the bar they get the affirmation they need, and likely meet other young men their age who have gone to war as opposed to the girly men infiltrating today's American church.

[Th3rd]

the girly men infiltrating today's American church.

favorite part of that whole long rant. I have mixed emotions on the whole situation. Am I relieved that Bin Laden is dead? Yes. But noticed I am not happy about it. No one should be happy about death. It does not matter whose death it is. We can be relieved over death, because yes that man was very evil in our eyes.

You know what gets me the most though. We as Americans are such flip floppers. We cry foul when the Arab world rejoiced at the fall of the towers on 9/11. Then we turn around and do the same, if not more, over the death of a man.

I greatly appreciate the men and women who serve our country (my dad is retired navy). I work on a military base. So yes I agree with war on a national level. But to say that Christians don't understand war is ridiculous. I understand war and I find it to be a necessary evil. But just because something is necessary does not make it any less evil.

Just my 2 cents on the matter

[jbock13]

No, we all can celebrate Bin Laden's death. End of conversation.

[Liberty Rules]

Many Christians....not all Christians was what I said. There is a reason that Christian soldiers often do not feel welcome in church.

Thanks for liking the girly men remark. I've been holding that one back for years now.

[Purple Haize]

Kilts is right about one thing: They ARE itchy!!!

As for American exceptionalism, I don't recall every bringing scriptural backing into the argument.
The Bible addresses a whole lot of things, but it does not address everything. (Math anyone?) The point being, I can look at America and see all of the good we have done and be proud of what happened. I can look at the 'bad' that America has done and be disappointed. However, when put on the balance of history, what America and American's have done outweighs BY FAR anything else. When compared with other nations with comparable power in history, America BY FAR is exceptional. Notice I did not excuse the 'bad' , America, like every other country in history, is imperfect. But when I look at the successful experiment in representative democracy, the charity of its people, the charity of its government, the people we have saved from tyranny and the advancements American's have made on all levels, how can you NOT be proud?
Biblical context? I would throw out that America's special relationship with Israel has helped that country continue is a pretty good thing. What other countries provide the support for Israel, even at HALF the level of America? The Old Testament is FULL of warfare. Roman generals are referenced in the New Testament. I do not recall Jesus telling the Roman general to resign his post, and I am fairly certain that Jesus knew what the guy did for a living before he saved his baby. Jesus DID get alll over the rich and religously self righteous though.
Finally, this is, IMO, becoming a scary tactic used by those who play the "God Card" when it comes to politics. Jesus is discussing personal conduct people who follow Jesus are to follow. So yes, we SHOULD give to the poor, we SHOULD be forgiving in our relationships etc. This does not follow that the GOVERNMENT should do the same. Why? Because not everyone IS a Christian and the whole theocracy thing hasn't really worked out that well in the past.
I love America, I think we are great. I love God and think he is pretty spectacular as well. I am glad that the SOB Bin Laden is dead. I am NOT sorry for his family, I AM sorry for the families of the men and women that died fighting his evil world view. If that makes me a heathen, so be it.

[4everfsu]

I would rather rejoice in the death of my enemies, then sorrow in the death of my fellow Americans.
Even the children of Israel sang and danced to the death of their enemies 1st Samuel 18.

[ALUmnus]

For the naysaysers, I understand your heart but give a little here. There will be idiots in any crowd but the vast majority of Americans are good and decent people who celebrated because of the death of this SOB represented a victory for the most compassionate and decent nation in the history of the world.

Yes! The world, especially the US, is full of extremely idiotic people. You can't avoid it. Anyone watch the NFL Draft a couple weeks ago? Ever see any type of political rally? Benny Hinn service? Dave Matthews concert? Any reality show on TV? Idiots, everywhere. So when you see these scenes of people celebrating like complete tools, that's pretty much the segment of the population you're seeing. I don't get why we're all being scolded because the predictable minority of people are acting like goobers. You just can't avoid that type of reaction.

[alum82]

Kilts is right about one thing: They ARE itchy!!!

As for American exceptionalism, I don't recall every bringing scriptural backing into the argument.
The Bible addresses a whole lot of things, but it does not address everything. (Math anyone?) The point being, I can look at America and see all of the good we have done and be proud of what happened. I can look at the 'bad' that America has done and be disappointed. However, when put on the balance of history, what America and American's have done outweighs BY FAR anything else. When compared with other nations with comparable power in history, America BY FAR is exceptional. Notice I did not excuse the 'bad' , America, like every other country in history, is imperfect. But when I look at the successful experiment in representative democracy, the charity of its people, the charity of its government, the people we have saved from tyranny and the advancements American's have made on all levels, how can you NOT be proud?
Biblical context? I would throw out that America's special relationship with Israel has helped that country continue is a pretty good thing. What other countries provide the support for Israel, even at HALF the level of America? The Old Testament is FULL of warfare. Roman generals are referenced in the New Testament. I do not recall Jesus telling the Roman general to resign his post, and I am fairly certain that Jesus knew what the guy did for a living before he saved his baby. Jesus DID get alll over the rich and religously self righteous though.
Finally, this is, IMO, becoming a scary tactic used by those who play the "God Card" when it comes to politics. Jesus is discussing personal conduct people who follow Jesus are to follow. So yes, we SHOULD give to the poor, we SHOULD be forgiving in our relationships etc. This does not follow that the GOVERNMENT should do the same. Why? Because not everyone IS a Christian and the whole theocracy thing hasn't really worked out that well in the past.
I love America, I think we are great. I love God and think he is pretty spectacular as well. I am glad that the SOB Bin Laden is dead. I am NOT sorry for his family, I AM sorry for the families of the men and women that died fighting his evil world view. If that makes me a heathen, so be it.

[01LUGrad]

This has to be one of the most entertaining threads on here since Liberty Couples.

One question for the lefties out there (not that too many of them read this stuff):
Waterboarding is terrible and those responsible should be prosecuted (some suggest they should be treated as the Nazi war criminals were), but breaking international laws by conducting a military operation within the borders of another nation without their consent and then shooting an unarmed guy in the head is fine and dandy with you guys? Really?

[jbock13]

This has to be one of the most entertaining threads on here since Liberty Couples.

One question for the lefties out there (not that too many of them read this stuff):
Waterboarding is terrible and those responsible should be prosecuted (some suggest they should be treated as the Nazi war criminals were), but breaking international laws by conducting a military operation within the borders of another nation without their consent and then shooting an unarmed guy in the head is fine and dandy with you guys? Really?

Well, you know 01LUGrad, the ends justify the means. If liberals use the intel to capture Bin Laden, their heroes. If conservatives use the intel, then they are evil war criminals.

But you didn't need me to tell you that

it's off topic, but we should do the liberty couples thread again. They are pretty bad. I thought the standing outside the hall together because you'll miss each other for 50 minutes was for high school... nope. And it's always the most ugly couples...

[Purple Haize]

This has to be one of the most entertaining threads on here since Liberty Couples.

One question for the lefties out there (not that too many of them read this stuff):
Waterboarding is terrible and those responsible should be prosecuted (some suggest they should be treated as the Nazi war criminals were), but breaking international laws by conducting a military operation within the borders of another nation without their consent and then shooting an unarmed guy in the head is fine and dandy with you guys? Really?

I'm not a lefty, but will tag on:
The short answer is: YES. Waterboarding IS terrible, but is no where NEAR what Nazi war criminals did. Have you ever even READ what happened in the Nazi concentration camps? I would dare say at least 6 million people would have much rather been waterboarded than gassed, experimented on, beaten, starved and other things. I mean you can't die or suffer permanent injury being waterboarded. OMG, they made them stand up for 24 hrs straight? Kept the lights on all the time? The horror! Adjusted room temp. to either very hot or very cold? Ruthless animals! Had scantily clad female interrogators question detainees? Barbarians!!!
I am tired of any perceived transgression bringing paralells to the Holocaust.

[BJWilliams]

That one is gonna be tough to top...the only reason Jon started this one is because the couple in question (which I believe later broke up anyway) was making it blatantly obvious and he was a captive audience to their over the top PDA. I know when I was in undergrad I didnt have that many couples in any of my classes, much less ones that partook in PDA in class

[RubberMallet]

a guy at work just whipped out the word "deathers"

yes. it happened.

Whoever is contributing to this type of labeling convention needs to be put out to pasture. Let's just add "ers" to the end of any word to describe a group of conspiracy people. Let just add "gate" to the end of any word to describe a scandal. Man I get so tired of this lazy, illogical jargon.

me and a coworker just got done making fun of people who say "birthers" and how they sounded more retarded than the people they were referring to. literally 10 seconds later, this numnuts walks in and is like "what the eff is up with all these stupid effing deathers!!!??""

and we laaaaauuuughed. it was good times.

[Old School]

I would be interested in knowing how many on this board served in our military.....God Bless our American military.

[bravo269er]

I'm currently in the Army, and i'm a infantryman. Served in Iraq and the Stan with the 101st Airborne Division.

[BJWilliams]

I think there is a thread for folks who are/were in the military somewhere...

ahh yes here it is: http://www.flamefans.com/forums/viewtop ... 14&t=15862