[PeterParker]

Interesting to start a thread on the comparison of how the two schools are approaching their growth commitment with their underlying faith-based structure.

While we know that Baylor has been around significantly longer, perhaps LU will look to borrow a page from the book of aesthetics concerning future building, campus layout etc. Not that the new construction on LU isn't a blessing, but from reading this board in various places, there seems to be a 'quality craftsmanship issue' concerning the projects. Interested to see others opinions and a rigorous discussion on this issue, and which university will actually be able to lay claim to the "Largest Christian University" in the world in the future.
http://www.baylor.edu/vision/index.php?id=9690
http://www.baylor.edu/physics/index.php?id=11345
http://www.baylor.edu/pr/news.php?actio ... story=4081

[LUconn]

We're going for a Jeffersonian UVA look. Get rid of the blacktop/gravel around campus and we're instantly 100% less of an eye sore.

[LUconn]

Also they're going to be better off for a while financially and possibly size wise due to a large alumni base. Some of them are bound to be wealthy and generous. Ours are not so much at the moment.

[SuperJon]

I'd love to have grass over the campus where you can just hang out and throw a football or something like that. I know we have the intramural fields but that's all. I agree with turning some parking lots into grass.

[ATrain]

SJ-Parking is a problem now...I hope you have some plan to replace those spots. Though I would like to see them put in that giant fountain that they used in artist renderings that was supposed to go in front of DeMoss after it was finished. Actually I think a few fountains, placed strategically, would be quite nice...as long as the freshmen don't throw soap into them.

And give the Vines a facelift as well...it just doesn't go with the brick structures of DeMoss and East Campus. And what are the plans for the Circle and Hill dorms?

[SuperJon]

The parking deck when it's built will take care of that.

[LUconn]

that vines center thing is a good idea. They could brick it up on the outside or even just paint it a faux brick color since it's already blocks. That would look snazzy.

[PeterParker]

I agree, more grassy knolls (and not of the second shooter variety) and how about something other than flatroofs to go along with the Jeffersonian attempt. A movement toward parking decks instead of sprawling blacktop...(the abolition of the circle dorms and the "70's style architecture wings" attached to DeMoss--I realize the space constraint is why they are still there, but...)

IMO they should take this juncture in the growth phase and move all living accomodations over to the other side of the highway, keep building up the side of the mountain (kind of like a really nice ski resort lodge layout.) Though it won't happen, they should use the current hill dorms spot for a new basketball/convocation Arena (someone on another thread hinted that there was a desire to build a new arena--if they did build a new arena, new use for Vines=East Coast's Largest Planetarium build some classes off the back and boom you've go a science center <---joking tone)

Also, interesting quotes:

Baylor

Chartered in 1845 by the Republic of Texas and affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, Baylor is the oldest institution of higher learning in the state and the largest Baptist university in the world.

While remaining true to its heritage, Baylor has grown to almost 14,000 students, and its nationally recognized academic divisions provide 146 baccalaureate degree programs at the undergraduate level. The University also offers 73 master's and 22 doctoral programs, two educational specialists, juris doctor, master of divinity and doctor of ministry. The 735-acre campus is located on the banks of the Brazos River in Waco, Texas, a metropolitan area of 200,000 people.

Liberty

Since its inception in 1971, it has been our dream to build a Christian university that is both academically excellent and spiritually vibrant. In just thirty years, Liberty has become the world’s largest distinctively Christian university. Today we are proud to be a part of this world-class Christian institution that is already making a difference across our nation and around the world.

Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia is an evangelical Christian university with about 8,700 on-campus students, and 12,000 in off-campus learning. Overall, Liberty offers thirty eight undergraduate majors and twenty-nine minors, as well as fifteen graduate programs, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary, a law school, the Liberty Bible Institute, and the English Language Institute. Even though it claims to be the largest Christian university in the world, it plans to continue expanding.

Liberty’s 4,400-acre campus is located in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia.
[/url]

[jcmanson]

The question is, is Baylor still a Christian university? Do their Prof's pray before class? Do they have all Christian professors? Does the administration push for spiritual growth? etc.

[krh44]

Interesting that this post was started this week. Has anyone heard about Baylor not letting some of their female students appear in Playboy. It is amazing how much grief they have taken because of it.

[PeterParker]

That is a valid point.

Here is an excerpt from their site explaining the gist of their goals:

Baylor 2012 Vision

Baylor's vision for 2012, though continuous with its cherished past, aspires to what few institutions, if any, have ever achieved. Within the course of a decade, Baylor intends to enter the top tier of American universities while reaffirming and deepening its distinctive Christian vision. Baylor will build a faculty and student body to provide leadership in a period of change and conflict. It will strengthen and expand its historic sense of community. It will strengthen and expand its focus on research. In doing all these things, it will take its place among the finest colleges and universities in the world.

[phoenix]

Baylor has some ... issues. They are still trying to figure out what kind of school they want to be.

Doesn't help that Texas is one of the biggest battlegrounds in the SBC. Half of them are old-fashioned Landmarkers and half are old-school moderates, and none of them get along with anyone else. ANd Baylor is stuck in the middle.

If Jerry can make sure that LU "stays the course" long term, I think Liberty can be the premier Baptist school. They are already the main destination for conservative Baptists (along with Cedarville).

[Brokeback Flamer]

Baylor has some ... issues. They are still trying to figure out what kind of school they want to be.

Doesn't help that Texas is one of the biggest battlegrounds in the SBC. Half of them are old-fashioned Landmarkers and half are old-school moderates, and none of them get along with anyone else. ANd Baylor is stuck in the middle.

If Jerry can make sure that LU "stays the course" long term, I think Liberty can be the premier Baptist school. They are already the main destination for conservative Baptists (along with Cedarville).

Riddle Me This Phoenix: Dont' you see LU going in the same direction soon? As in Who Are We? What happens as the Old Time Gospel Hour folks fade into the sunset and the DC Talk crowd comes into prominence? When the old man steps down or passes on, which direction will we take? This may even be a foreshadowing of LU's future, although not as severe I think.

BTW, Cedarville is a great school with an outstanding seminary!

[Sly Fox]

Based on how much time I have spent on the Baylor campus over the past decade and how many BU alumni I'm surrounded by down here, I feel I might have a little better perspective on the similarities and differences than most on this board.

First off, making comparisons is only natural. Frankly, these are the only two large & visible universities in America that Evangelicals can honestly make claim to. Sure there are plenty of "Baptist" schools particualrly in the Southeast. But Baylor & Liberty are the only ones making an effort to publically adhere to Evangelical principles. Frankly that wasn't the case that long ago. In the '70s & '80s Baylor slipped into the control of the Moderates in the Texas branch of the SBC. But in a very public battle in the '80s and '90s it was seized back by the conservative faction. The conservatives in Texas (who make the vast majority) were tired of having all of their SBC-funded schools going directly against their ideals.

Today the school remains very much in the grasp of the conservatives. But there remains a large number of the faculty who are tenured holdovers from the previous regime that challenge the administration at every move. The fight is far from over and the moderates in the state (including some very influential alumni) are continuing to fight back with some success. The school paper has been in the news a number of times with editorials that are completely opposed to the type of values we hold dear at LU.

Back a few years ago, the president of BU feeling confident after the conservatives had siezed complete control over the board of trustees, began making very public plans for the future. Part of this agenda was the aforementioned 2012 plan. If you've been around any of the LU boards for any period of time, you probably know how I feel about having a vision. This president certainly did and he began raising money from the Dr. Pepper folks and others to try and make Baylor competitive with just about any university in America.

But then came the problems ... the most damaging being the Dennehy murder. It exposed widespread corruption in the athletic department and gave ammunition to the moderates to call for his head. Bottom line, the 2012 initiative was pushed aside somewhat as the school has had to rebuild its reputation and try to grease the donors in order to keep the funds coming in.

With all of that as a background, I think I can make some observations that may be relevant. Baylor is considered the destination of choice for most Baptists in Texas. BU is considered an above average institution of higher learning alongside SMU and behind along Rice as far as privates in the state are concerned (TCU is considered by most as a slight notch back). Academically their reputation is stellar. On the negative side of things, Waco is considered a terrible college town and the rules are considered by most Texans as archaic (sound familiar?).

Athletically they are in great shape thanks to having two of their alumni in the Governor & Lt. Governor roles when the Big 8 came calling for expansion back in '95. If not for Ann Richards (yes, she is a Baylor alum) & Bob Bullock there is no chance BU would've been taken into the Big 12 (it would've been either Houston or TCU). But in a power conference they reside. Obviously they are in way over their heads in football. But they are generally competiive in everything else (especially the non-revenue sports) with Drew building a very nice foundation for the basketball program that was on life support int he wake of the tragedy/scandal.

Is Baylor known for having a campus on fire for God? Probably not. Do they go out of their way to use their status as a platform for Evangelical principles? Certainly not. But they do provide Evangelicals with an option where they can get a first rate education without feeling like they have to compromise anything.

They have a large and affluent alumni base that shoudl keep them strong for years to come. Eventually the same will be said for LU. In the meantime, we both are playing our different roles halfway across the continent from each other.

[PeterParker]

Thanks for the insight...that is very interesting information.

So it seems that the big three (maybe four?) are:
(Though each may have denominational differences, large christian universities.)

Liberty (East Coast)

Baylor (Texas--you guys were your own country once)

Pepperdine (West Coast)

Oral Roberts (Midwest)

Are there anymore that are a) large b) division 1 athletics c) distinctively faith based

[LUconn]

There are a bunch. should you throw in a C. baptist/evangelical? or else you get BYU, SMU, etc.

[El Scorcho]

Though it won't happen, they should use the current hill dorms spot for a new basketball/convocation Arena...

You must see a lot more land under those dorms than I do. Coming up with that kind of space up there would require the elimination of the Mansion and the Prayer Chapel. I could see the Prayer Chapel going away, but the Mansion is a national historic site. You can't just go bulldozing those sorts of things.

SJ-Parking is a problem now...I hope you have some plan to replace those spots.

I still disagree that parking is a problem, but I think the increased parking fees are a step in the right direction. Eliminating freshman parking or starting a lottery for parking decals (I know UNC does this) would be even better steps, I think.

Neither of these things are neither here nor there in regard to this thread though. So um, FLAMES RULE! Baylor sucks!

There. That's better.

[ATrain]

Though it won't happen, they should use the current hill dorms spot for a new basketball/convocation Arena...

You must see a lot more land under those dorms than I do. Coming up with that kind of space up there would require the elimination of the Mansion and the Prayer Chapel. I could see the Prayer Chapel going away, but the Mansion is a national historic site. You can't just go bulldozing those sorts of things.

.

Who said anything about bulldozing the mansion...it could just "fall" down in a hurricane or an earthquake felt nowhere but on Liberty's Campus

[AgVball]

I know this thread is old - but I couldn't help myself from chiming in.

I've been to Baylor's campus many times over the past 14 years (for sporting events) - and those kids act very unChristianlike. Just recently we've had them dropping f-bombs and other words at basketball games. I can expect that from the tsips (university of texas) and even txtech, but I certainly don't expect that from Baylor students. They certainly have a complex with trying to compete in the big 12. I agree, they have some good athletic programs, they certainly don't have to let their attitudes slide.

Waco practically shuts down @ 9:30pm - even gas stations shut down. We got out of a vball match one night @ 10pm - we were lucky to get a fastfood burger and get on the road. Although, I never got out much in Lynchburg to know whether it shuts down or not (i didn't have a car and I didn't have any free time to go out anyway).

That's a rather broad assessment - but that's what I see when I got on their campus a couple of times a year.
I will admit that their band is pretty good.
The best part of going to Waco is stopping in West to get Kolaches!!!

[Sly Fox]

AgVball - I don't think it is completely fair to judge an entire campus based ont he way its athletes act. Even at LU we've had some incidents of our own over the years. But I agree that their athletic department doesn't generally visibly exhibit many Christ-like attributes.

And yes, Waco does roll up the sidewalks early. Its not on anybody's lists of cities to go for a great time. I do enjoy a couple of the old restaurants on the circle. Otherwise ...

[phoenix]

Since this thread's back up ....

I think Brokeback made a good point, way back in April. Jerry's doing as much as he can to preserve the legacy, as it were. Good, solid trustees are the key, and I think LU has them. A lot of Baylor's problems are being exasperated by trustees and alumni. But the path that Baylor has been on is a path that many Christian schools travel -- Yale, Harvard, and Brown are good examples.