A Sea Of Red

When the following appeared in the TTU thread, I immediately thought it'd make an interesting topic here in the Chapel:

Cider Jim wrote:And, for the record, "Evangelical" was a bad word at Temple; we much preferred John R. Rice's term--Fundamentalist.

It may seem odd to some of the younger posters on the board, but LU used to pride itself on being "Fundamentalist". The National Liberty Journal originally was called the Fundamentalist Journal. Over the past couple of decades the left has done a terrific job of destroying the meaning of that term and making it into common perception today of religious extremism thanks to Muslim terrorists.

When I was a kid, we usually called ourselves Fundamentalists or Fundamental Evangelicals. The basic idea was that we were a specific brand of Evangelicals that adhered to five key fundamentals of faith:

• 1. Inerrancy of Scripture
  
  2. Virgin birth of Christ
  
  3. Christ substituting himself for the atonement of our sins
  
  4. The bodily resurrection of Christ
  
  5. Christ will return to earth

The theologically inclined scholars of the board can correct me if I'm wrong. Those who were generally considered Fundamentalists back in the day were Baptists, Pentecostals, Assemblies of God & Church of God. Of course many other denominations & affiliations also fell into the Fundamentalist category including Presbyterians, Methodists, Evangelical Free etc. But it was the Bible-thumping Baptists & Charismatics that primarily called themselves Fundies. Today you'd be hardpressed to find anyone other than hardcore IFBx (Independent Fundamental Baptists Extreme) & Pentecostals who would cop to the moniker.

The name of John R. Rice was brought up in the other thread. He was generally considered the point man for the IFB movement from the '50s-'70s. I know more than a bit about he man since my grandfather was his right hand man for many years and wrote his biography.

I'm curious to hear thoughts from others about how they feel when they hear the term 'Fundmanetalist'.

Sly, I agree with everything above.... how I feel about it is like you... It sucks that the term has become a pejorative. In reality it means exactly what you lay out... we believe these 5 fundamentals of the faith. I do think it's been very wise for LU and others to move away from that term but Christians in general could have done a better job describing what you've done here.

Another sign of a fundamentalist was the KJV bible, baby!

I think a major shift occured in the 50's and 60's. Bjuers and there friends started to create their own bubble, and did not want to associate with Fundies that associated with nonfundies. Thus the Evangelical is born. The fundementalist movement was initially created to "draw a line in the sand", and make a list of doctines that are essential to the gospel. Currenently ultra-conservatives "legalists" are using this term to describe themselves, and are calling us liberals, when in fact we hold to these "fundamentals". I think now that we would be considered Evangelicals. I know that the Evanglelical Theological Society has one criteria, that you believe the Bible is inspired and inerrant. If you believe that you would by default believe the 5 fundementals of the faith.

my grandad is an independ fundamental kjv version only foot stompin podium poundin baptist, and he'll tell you like it is. and according to him, Jerry Falwell has "moved". which i think he means that he has changed his beliefs/standards or something

Your Grand dad is probably saying that because Jerry moved away from the KJV. Your grand dad must me a good ole preacher. The kind I grew up, hell fire and brimstone

I think it'd be more accurate to say he's added other versions to his repertoire instead of "moving away". But it is true that many Fundies feel that way. Its not a new development that some have referred to us as Liberal University. I'm serious.

Next to LU and TRBC I think one of Jerry's greatest legacies will be that he led many IFB's out of the world of extremism hat Hyles and Bob Jones still remain in, although they can't get along with each other either. That wing of fundamentalism is known for "feudin, fussin, and fighin'", which is the title of a message Jerry gave back in the 70's. Sure wish I could hear it again now.

Thank God Jerry left all of that mess. Jones called Jerry "the most dangerous man in America". Of course that was when Jerry was making waves and becoming popular and LU was becoming a real college and it was obvious it would challenge BJU for the same students (then). Jones has had a pattern of such attacks with various ministries/colleges.

I heard a story of how in 1991 a group of IFB's sat in a meeting with Jerry and tried to come to some "agreement" and after awhile Falwell politely said, "It doesn't seem we are going in the same direction. You don't need me and I don't need you but let's depart as friends".

Years later a man who was at that meeting said Jerry was "half right". Jerry did not need them"

Sly, I've never seen a thread started from a quote of mine, so I feel honored, and I'm happy to chime in on your topic. Just as Bryson & JDUB (and 2000 others) lost Jerry their freshman year, I lost John R. Rice my freshman year at Tennessee Temple in 1979. He spoke to us just one in chapel and brought a tractor trailer load of his books published by the Sword of the Lord, and I remember buying one he wrote called I Am a Fundamentalist.

When JDUB's grandpa said that Jerry had "moved," he may have been referring to the Moral Majority, which also was formed in 1979. Many of the hyper-fundamentalists (from Temple, BJU, Hyles, & Pennsacola) refused to join because it would have caused them to associate with Catholics and Pentacostals. Jerry's philosophy he said he borrowed from BR Lakin: "He was friends with anyone who was friends with Christ." As good as that philosophy sounds now, many of the hyper fundies refused to side with any others who were not exactly like themselves: many independent Baptists won't even associate with other Baptists (Southern, American, General).

I was at John R. Rice's funeral in Murfreesboro (at Franklin Road and Bill Rice Ranch). His wife was one of the coolest women you would ever meet. She treated my sister and I as adopted grandkids even though she already had a slew of her own.

Even though my dad was a TTU grad and he was pastoring GARBC churches, after initially joking about the Jerry First pins he became a supporter of Jerry in some of the IFB circles. Shortly after 1979 the separation extremists began forcing issues among the IFB crowds and started pushing KJVO pretty hard. Thankfully my dad saw the trouble brewing and stayed clear of the mess. But it still raised eyebrows in many of our circles when I headed to Liberty instead of one of the accepted schools. But I'm thrilled he let me go where I wanted to go. When I look back at what a disaster it could've been otherwise I cringe.

All that said, I'm disappointed that we have been shamed into no longer using the Fundy label.

Cider Jim wrote:Sly, I've never seen a thread started from a quote of mine, so I feel honored, and I'm happy to chime in on your topic. Just as Bryson & JDUB (and 2000 others) lost Jerry their freshman year, I lost John R. Rice my freshman year at Tennessee Temple in 1979. He spoke to us just one in chapel and brought a tractor trailer load of his books published by the Sword of the Lord, and I remember buying one he wrote called I Am a Fundamentalist.

When JDUB's grandpa said that Jerry had "moved," he may have been referring to the Moral Majority, which also was formed in 1979. Many of the hyper-fundamentalists (from Temple, BJU, Hyles, & Pennsacola) refused to join because it would have caused them to associate with Catholics and Pentacostals. Jerry's philosophy he said he borrowed from BR Lakin: "He was friends with anyone who was friends with Christ." As good as that philosophy sounds now, many of the hyper fundies refused to side with any others who were not exactly like themselves: many independent Baptists won't even associate with other Baptists (Southern, American, General).

Heck, half of the Independents don't fellowship with the other half based on things like King James only, pants on woman, CCM, and some, I kid you not, computer screens and Power Point. Go figure. So glad Jerry did move..............away from those knuckleheads.

But you have to admit it is fun to poke those IFBx guys, JJ. I see your handiwork on the boards.

Sly Fox wrote:I was at John R. Rice's funeral in Murfreesboro (at Franklin Road and Bill Rice Ranch). His wife was one of the coolest women you would ever meet. She treated my sister and I as adopted grandkids even though she already had a slew of her own.

Even though my dad was a TTU grad and he was pastoring GARBC churches, after initially joking about the Jerry First pins he became a supporter of Jerry in some of the IFB circles. Shortly after 1979 the separation extremists began forcing issues among the IFB crowds and started pushing KJVO pretty hard. Thankfully my dad saw the trouble brewing and stayed clear of the mess. But it still raised eyebrows in many of our circles when I headed to Liberty instead of one of the accepted schools. But I'm thrilled he let me go where I wanted to go. When I look back at what a disaster it could've been otherwise I cringe.

All that said, I'm disappointed that we have been shamed into no longer using the Fundy label.

Hey Sly, I forgot your dad'd screen name on that "other" forum. But I don't think I have seen him around much lately.

Sly Fox wrote:But you have to admit it is fun to poke those IFBx guys, JJ. I see your handiwork on the boards.

Too much fun I spend too much time doing it.

i once saw my grandad pick up a piece of mail from a religious organiztion or something, look at the guy on the front, and throw it away. he said he could tell by the way the guy was dressed that he wasn't interested in supporting him. the guy had on a suit with no tie. i was like.. wow

i remember, i think it was last semester, Dr. Falwell said something in one of his sunday mornings at TRBC about wearing suits to church, and said that if people wear suits just because thats what was appropriate in the past, and don't want to change with the times, then they should be wearing robes, because thats what they wore in the old testament. (thats not exactly the way he said it but thats as close as i remember)

i wanted so bad to tell that to my grandad, but since he already doesn't like Dr. Falwell i figured it was pointless. people like my grandad will not even listen to the other side of an argument, all they care about is saying how right they are and how wrong you are. you can't even have a decent argument with them

jdub's grandpa, also my grandpa, attends a church that believes contemporary christian music is the reason for the fall of the church.

just a fun-fact. a little surprising to me... not to bash anyone that agrees. it's just difficult for me to grasp someone believing that.

in case any of you are slow and can't do the math, me and bryson are cousins. just thought i would clarify so no one gets confused

JDUB wrote:in case any of you are slow and can't do the math, me and bryson are cousins. just thought i would clarify so no one gets confused

Boy, Grandad can't be too happy with you guys! LOL

Just John wrote:

Sly Fox wrote:I was at John R. Rice's funeral in Murfreesboro (at Franklin Road and Bill Rice Ranch). His wife was one of the coolest women you would ever meet. She treated my sister and I as adopted grandkids even though she already had a slew of her own.

Even though my dad was a TTU grad and he was pastoring GARBC churches, after initially joking about the Jerry First pins he became a supporter of Jerry in some of the IFB circles. Shortly after 1979 the separation extremists began forcing issues among the IFB crowds and started pushing KJVO pretty hard. Thankfully my dad saw the trouble brewing and stayed clear of the mess. But it still raised eyebrows in many of our circles when I headed to Liberty instead of one of the accepted schools. But I'm thrilled he let me go where I wanted to go. When I look back at what a disaster it could've been otherwise I cringe.

All that said, I'm disappointed that we have been shamed into no longer using the Fundy label.

Hey Sly, I forgot your dad'd screen name on that "other" forum. But I don't think I have seen him around much lately.

Ahhh, I remember now. Have not seen him in a long time. Say hey to him.

Yeah my dad (GulfTX) tends to let pastoring a church get int he way of posting on boards. Clearly his priorities are all out of whack.

He posts on here from time as well ... just very infrequently to keep me in line.

Just John wrote:

JDUB wrote:in case any of you are slow and can't do the math, me and bryson are cousins. just thought i would clarify so no one gets confused

Boy, Grandad can't be too happy with you guys! LOL

yeah, he's not all that happy that we chose to become flames. you'd think he'd be thanking God we didn't go to UNC, Duke, radford (we'd have the ragin HIV then ), etc., where we might have a more difficult time keeping our testimony.

Take if from one who was raised IFB, and was indoctrinated with KJV(still my choice today) women cannot wear pants to church, that doesnt bother me at all , anyone divorced must be on their way to hell, these type of teaching from a IFB who said if you don't cross your t's and dot your i's the way he does, he or you cannot have fellowship with him.
In all fairness all the IFB preachers I knew growing up was not like him, he was the type of pastor I had during my high school years.
And roll into that my freshmen year was at BJU you can see how I was screwed up from a theological viewpoint.
Then thank God I heard of LBC thru the OTGH and once I attended, I saw another side of the Gospel, you can still believe and at the same time love people without sacrificing your beliefs. Thank God for LBC(LU) and a man called Jerry

My two favorite fundamentalist stories involve Jack Hyles & Jerry Falwell:

Story 1--Hyles was preaching at a church somewhere, but before the message a woman sang a song wearing slacks. The first thing Hyles said after the song was, "I thought this was a BAPTIST church?!? (it turns out the singer was the pastor's wife).

Story 2--Jerry was traveling with one of the LBC singing groups somewhere in the South, and when they arrived the pastor told them he had 3 rules--"no slacks, no tracks, & no blacks." Jerry said he promptly got back on the bus, skipped the service, and took the kids to McDonalds for dinner.

(disclaimer: neither of these stories is a joke--I heard both men tell the stories themselves from the pulpit).

I don't think we want to set the bad precedent of bringing up Hyles stories up unless we want to bring in Bob Gray. Personally I'd prefer neither were IFB leaders.

Sly, when Hyles died, there was a small article on the first page of the Champion about it, and I think there was even a quote in there from Jerry.