[Sly Fox]

Obviously Jerry Vines has had a big influence on our school over the past few decades. He still sits on the board and has a large edifice on campus named after him. Here's the story about how the transition is going in J-Vegas with his retirement and the current Texan likely coming to fill his shoes:

Mac Brunson of Dallas likely to follow Vines as pastor of Jacksonville church
By Greg Warner

Published February 9, 2006


Mac Brunson

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (ABP) -- Less than a week after bidding farewell to retiring pastor Jerry Vines, First Baptist Church of Jacksonville -- one of the country's largest congregations -- is expected to nominate Dallas pastor Mac Brunson as his successor.

The Jacksonville church posted a simple announcement on its website Feb. 9: "Please join us this Sunday, Feb. 12, for an announcement from the pulpit committee." Several well-placed Baptists in Jacksonville said Brunson will be announced as the candidate.

"That's what I've been told," state Sen. Stephen Wise, a prominent member of the church, told Associated Baptist Press Feb. 9. "It's pretty well known. I was told in an e-mail this morning."

Brunson already fills one of Christianity's most legendary pulpits -- First Baptist Church of Dallas -- where W.A. Criswell and George W. Truett rose to fame. But the Dallas church has lost some of its luster -- and membership -- in recent years. With about 10,000 total members, it is about a third the size of the Jacksonville church, which counts 28,000 members and occupies nine blocks of downtown.

Brunson has long been mentioned as a candidate for the Jacksonville pastorate. He asked the Dallas congregation Jan. 8 to pray for him concerning a major decision about his future. He declined to tell reporters any details at the time.

Brunson was one of the featured speakers at the Jacksonville church's pastors' school in early February. He could not be reached by phone or e-mail Feb. 9. No one was answering the phones at First Baptist of Jacksonville that evening either.

Brunson has been senior pastor of the Dallas congregation since 1999. He also serves as chancellor of Criswell College, the undergraduate school founded by members of the church.

Previously Brunson was pastor of Greenstreet Baptist Church in High Point, N.C. He holds degrees from Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas, and Furman University in Greenville, S.C. He and his wife, Debbie, have three children.

First Baptist has been a fixture in downtown Dallas since 1868. Its facilities now occupy six city blocks. It has an average Sunday school attendance of 3,103 and total annual receipts of $26 million.

Vines, 68, pastor of the Jacksonville church for 23 years, announced his retirement last May. It became official Feb. 7. Like Criswell, he was president of the Southern Baptist Convention and a pivotal figure in the conservative takeover of the SBC. He also was a trustee chairman at Jerry Falwell's Liberty University.

Paige Patterson, one of the architects of the SBC conservative movement, told the Florida Times-Union of Jacksonville: “I wouldn’t hesitate to say that Dr. Vines and [late Memphis pastor] Dr. Adrian Rogers were the two most important figures in the conservative movement.”

http://www.abpnews.com/828.article

[TIMSCAR20]

Jon Vines (his son) is a close friend of mine. I have been to the church. It is like a stadium. I always liked Rev Vines and I wish him well in his retirement. Jon sent me some Superbowl stuff when my beloved Eagles played there last year. BTW the Vines Center is NOT named for Jerry Vines but rather the mother in law of Bo Adams the guy that gave the money for the building in 89. We had a big 15 year celebration (ok not that big) during half time 2 seasons ago. I must admit I didn't realize that until a few years after the Vines was built.

[Sly Fox]

I stand corrected. But its still interesting nonetheless.

[TallyW]

Thanks for the info Scar... I knew it wasn't Jerry but I didn't know who it WAS.... they have their picture up as you leave the Vines... it goes unnoticed for the most part but it is there... It's easy to assume being that he's a big timer who sits on our board.

What do you guys think of Pastors jumping up the ladder so much? Not just this move (from 10k to 30k people) but even with most local Pastors staying for an average of 4-5 years and Youth Pastors moving on average every 18 months... (OR SHOULD I START ANOTHER THREAD?) honestly

[Sly Fox]

Very funny, Tally.

Really now, is there much difference for a teaching pastor between 10k & 30k? You have to figure there comes a point where the numbers starting sounding federal budget statistics. They don't seem real.

[PAmedic]

my only question would be re: "youth pastors moving on average every 18 months"

I'm not sure how you build relationships in that little amount of time. As a pre-teen/teen, my youth pastor was the same for over 10 years and knew all the kids and their families like, well- family.

[TallyW]

Sad but true medic... There is some debate over the 18 month figure but no debate that it's under 2.5.

Unfortunately many in the ministry look at the YP position as a stepping stone. The whole system is messed up. I could go on for a long time about how and why it happens and how it's always "God's Calling" but it's funny that God almost always calls to a bigger church or bigger salary...

I'll stop now... but yes medic... it's very problematic. Once the YP's bag of tricks runs out and he actually has to 'shepard'... he's gone... for one reason or another... not a healthy situation. There are many factors to this but I don't want to turn this post into a rant.

[Sly Fox]

Here's a story from the Dallas Morning News on the impending change:

FBC Dallas pastor may leave

09:55 PM CST on Friday, February 10, 2006
By SAM HODGES / The Dallas Morning News

First Baptist Church of Dallas, once widely considered the premier pulpit in the Southern Baptist Convention, may soon have the unfamiliar experience of losing its senior pastor to another church.

Mac Brunson, leader of the downtown Dallas congregation since 1999, is expected to be hired soon as senior pastor at First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Fla.


Dr. Mac Brunson could be the first pastor to leave First Baptist for another church since the 19th century.

Dr. Brunson did not return calls, and staff at both churches refused to comment. But the Jacksonville church posted a notice on its Web site saying its pulpit committee would make an announcement at a Sunday morning service.

Several people in Florida and Texas said they expected the committee to recommend hiring Dr. Brunson, 48. They also said they expected that he would accept the call, if the congregation votes to hire him.

"I knew that Mac had been approached by the pulpit committee," said Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, and former president of the Criswell College in Dallas, part of First Baptist Dallas. "I'm grieved to see him going. On the other hand, First Baptist Jacksonville is one of the greatest churches in the country." At 28,000 members, the Florida church is easily one of the largest Protestant congregations in the country.

The vacancy in Jacksonville was created by the recent retirement of the Rev. Jerry Vines, a former president of the 16.2 million-member Southern Baptist Convention.

First Baptist Dallas, on San Jacinto Street near St. Paul, has been home to long-tenured giants among Southern Baptist preachers. George Truett was senior pastor from 1897 until his death in 1944. Then came W.A. Criswell, a famous champion of biblical inerrancy, who served as senior pastor for 50 years and was pastor emeritus at his death in 2002.

Dr. Criswell's successor, Joel Gregory, had a brief, tumultuous tenure, after which he went into business (and wrote a candid memoir of his difficulties with his celebrated predecessor). O.S. Hawkins succeeded Dr. Gregory and left the church after five years to head an SBC financial board.

If he goes, Dr. Brunson – Dr. Hawkins' successor – would be the first pastor to leave First Baptist for another church since the 19th century.

But even in Dr. Criswell's last years, the church struggled to maintain attendance as members moved to the suburbs. Membership is now about 10,000, less than half that claimed in the Criswell era.

Attendance stabilized and even began to grow under Dr. Brunson, deacons of the church said. First Baptist Dallas averages about 3,500 worshippers for its Sunday services, according to Leadership Network, a church think tank based in Dallas.

Meanwhile, Prestonwood Baptist in Plano averages about 14,000 each weekend.

"First Dallas is a famous church, but the world moved out," Dr. Patterson said. "The world is in Prestonwood's back yard. It's much more difficult to get people to drive downtown now."

First Baptist Jacksonville, a downtown church, averages 7,500 for Sunday services. Its worship center holds about 10,000, compared with the 2,000 seats in First Baptist Dallas' 19th-century, red brick sanctuary.

Mark Lovvorn, a First Baptist Dallas deacon, said he could understand why Dr. Brunson would be interested in the Jacksonville position.

"Mac Brunson has made it known for quite some time that he feels strongly that God has called him to preach," Mr. Lovvorn said. "This will be a great fit for him. This is a 10,000-seat auditorium. Even though we have a large congregation, they have even more that attend Sunday morning services."

First Baptist Dallas remains a major force in the Dallas area, owning the First Baptist Academy, a private school; Criswell College, a Bible school on the eastern edge of downtown; and KCBI-FM (90.9), a Christian radio station. The church is building a $48 million multipurpose building, to be called the Criswell Center.

Dr. Brunson would be leaving with about $38 million of that total raised, and the building not due to be finished until June.

Dr. Brunson has been "genuinely loved" by the congregation, said Paul Madeley, a deacon. But he added that the pastor's departure would cause "some frustration, maybe some anger, particularly because of the building project – a $48 million building project which is by no means paid for."

Another deacon, Ken Stohner Jr., said he expected few, if any, hard feelings toward Dr. Brunson.

"The church has grown spiritually under his preaching; it's grown in its mission involvement; it's grown in its overall giving; and it's grown in its physical facilities," he said.

"I'm confident that if he does in fact leave, God will have a new man to become our pastor that will pick up the work."

Dr. Brunson is the author of The God You've Been Searching For and other books, and is a popular guest preacher. His style, colleagues say, is both down-home and scholarly.

"Mac is recognized as one of the outstanding pulpiteers in the country," Dr. Hawkins said.

Dr. Brunson has been aligned with the conservatives who have dominated the Southern Baptist Convention in recent years, and he led his church to loosened ties with the moderate Baptist General Convention of Texas and new ties with the more conservative Southern Baptists of Texas Convention.

Florida State Sen. Stephen Wise, a member of First Baptist Jacksonville, said he had heard from a church deacon that Dr. Brunson was the pulpit committee's pick.

Mike Hogan, Duval County tax collector in Florida and a member of First Baptist Jacksonville, said, "I know he has been in town, looking for a house."

Staff writers Paul Meyer and Jeffrey Weiss contributed to this report.

E-mail samhodges@dallasnews.com

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 0d3dc.html

And here is a story from the Fort Worth Star-Telegram:

First Baptist of Dallas pastor moves on

By JIM JONES
Special to the Star-Telegram

FORT WORTH – The Rev. Mac Brunson is expected to step down from the legendary pulpit of the First Baptist Church of Dallas to succeed the Rev. Jerry Vines as pastor of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Fla., a leading member of the Dallas church said Friday.

“Dr. Brunson is a terrific preacher, and we hate to lose him,” Jack Pogue said. “If they like good preaching in Jacksonville, they have picked a wonderful man for the job.”

Pogue, founder of the Criswell Foundation, which gives financial support to First Baptist’s Criswell College and other ministries of the downtown Dallas church, said Brunson is expected to announce his decision to go to Jacksonville during the 11 a.m. worship service Sunday.

“I understand the Jacksonville church will make the announcement of the choice of Dr. Brunson on Sunday also,” Pogue said.

The Jacksonville church‘s Web site carried this notice Friday: “Please join us this Sunday, Feb. 12, for an announcement from our pulpit committee.”

Pogue, who was a close friend and associate of the late Rev. W.A. Criswell, First Baptist’s pastor for almost a half-century, said Brunson has done an excellent job.

“We hate to start looking for a new pastor,” said Pogue. “But we believe First Baptist has great opportunities in the years ahead with all the new residents coming into downtown Dallas.”

Under Criswell, First Baptist became the largest congregation in the Southern Baptist Convention, and at one time claimed 26,000 members. The church and its private school occupy six city blocks of downtown Dallas. The total membership is now listed at about 10,000, according to Associated Baptist Press.

Brunson also serves as chancellor Criswell College.

Vines, who retired this month after 23 years as pastor, is a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention and helped conservatives gain dominance in the denomination during the 1980s. Associated Baptist Press reported the church has a membership of 28,000 and covers nine blocks of downtown Jacksonville.

Under Baptist polity, the pulpit committee would nominate Brunson and then a majority of church members present must vote to approve him.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/13846137.htm

[PAmedic]

Its ironic and somewhat sad that this seems more like a coaching situation here- what with recruiting, talk of bigger and nicer facilities, attendance records, and I'm sure the bejamins are a factor.

Makes ya wish for the old days of small churches and covered dish dinners- but I guess time change

[TallyW]

I suppose at this level there aren't Tons of Pastors who could actually handle the demands of a small city for a church. I guess to be fair to JAX you would want someone who has major church experience. To get that, you won't find that man in the unemployment line. Mac is only 48 so he should have a pretty nice ministry for the next 20+ years at JAX.

[PastorZack]

Being that I'm the "Minister to Youth" and Associate Pastor of our church, I have a unique insight in these circumstances. From the very first youth ministry class i had at Lu, Doug Randlett hammered into us was that youth ministry is not a "stepping stone" in the ministry. Ministry is ministry, no matter to whom it is done. I would love to just be called pastor, rather than "here's our youth pastor". sure, i do minister to youth, but I also counsel with adults, my children, my wife, other younger married couples, but I'm known as the "youth pastor". when i left seminary at LU, I just wanted to minister somewhere, but no church in their right mind would hire me as a full-time minister...it just doesn't happen up here in PA. I had to become bi-vocational. So, sure I would have to look around at a church that offered me "full-time" money to move there. this is not to say that it is some kind of stepping stone, but a way that I could "minister" full time and not have to waste the 55 hours a week at the other job.

[TallyW]

No church in their right mind would hire you full time? Why not? Are you looking for a church?

I'm not a big fan of divided ministry until a church is several hundred in size. I've searched and I can't find youth ministry in the bible
When I got hired at my last church (I've since planted a chruch), I was in a staff meeting after about a month on the job and I said "guys... you shouldn't have hired me.... you don't NEED a Youth Pastor here." They didn't care... the parents "wanted something for the kids".

I honestly think churches should go to a 'Family Pastor' format where the role is more of family development and lay people lead the divisions under that family Pastor. okay, I'll shutup... that's not what this thread is for and no one asked about my ministry philosophy

[Jasmen]

I'll try again and make it shorter. Youth min. @ church I grew up in still there after almost 20 yrs. Before that, man from
BJU didn't keep it secret that youth group was stepping-stone; that didn't help relationships- I think they lost respect for him.
Saw him few yrs. ago and he was working for BJU. (He had also b'n choir direct., played trumpet....)
I loved Doug Randlett, BTW. Only took one class but dated someone he mentored. A guy in my class called Doug "Rambling Randlett" but I admired him- and JF, of course, and Dr. Fink....

[Sly Fox]

Here's another update:

FBC Jacksonville to vote on Dallas' Mac Brunson as new pastor

Feb 13, 2006
By James A. Smith Sr., Florida Baptist Witness
Baptist Press

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (BP)--Members of First Baptist Church of Jacksonville will vote on a new pastor for the first time in more than 65 years Feb. 19 when "Mac" Brunson, pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas, will preach in view of a call, the Jacksonville congregation’s pulpit committee chairman announced Feb. 12.

The announcement comes only five days after Jerry Vines –- pastor of First Baptist Jacksonville for more than 23 years -– preached his final sermon to the congregation, which has been led by a series of co-pastors, starting with Homer Lindsay Sr., and continuing with Homer Lindsay Jr. and Vines.

Brunson, 48, has been senior pastor of First Baptist Dallas since 1999, and also serves as chancellor of the church’s Criswell College. He made announcements about the call of the Jacksonville church in each of the church’s three morning worship services Feb. 12.

Brunson expressed “great grief” that “the press and certain people have robbed me of a sacred obligation I have of talking to my congregation.”

Speaking to his congregation about the initial reports based on rumor, Brunson said, “That’s the press. That’s the mouth of people. You’re going to have that ‘til Jesus comes and then Jesus is going to clear that up,” Brunson stated in the final morning service Sunday.

“Instead of grieving about the press or gossips,” Brunson asked his congregation to turn their attention to John 21 to discover that God “has a plan or purpose for your life individually, my life personally, and this congregation collectively. It centers around two words -– follow me.”

Brunson told the Dallas congregation that he had declined an offer in 2004 to become co-pastor of a prominent church, without naming the church, and then explained that when the First Baptist Jacksonville pulpit committee contacted him, he initially declined to be considered, but began reconsidering later in 2005 because of the persistence of the committee. He decided he would not make a decision until after Christmas.

During a trip to the Holy Land, Brunson said he became convinced that God was leading him to Jacksonville. While traveling at night on the back of a camel up Mount Sinai, Brunson said he prayed for two hours that the God who spoke to Moses through a burning bush would offer him so much as a matchstick of light to direct his path.

“There were these two great congregations, the convention looking on and watching and I’ve got my family. I’ve got to know what your will is for my life,” Brunson said he told God. “Some of you folks think I’ve been plotting and planning this for the last five years –- that it’s some great devious scheme of some kind. The fact is you’re just mistaken. You’re looking at a man who has wrestled and struggled with this and sought godly wisdom, godly counsel.”

Brunson was pastor of Green Street Baptist Church in High Point, N.C., from 1992-1999, and served previously in churches in Virginia and South Carolina. He was president of the Southern Baptist Pastors’ Conference in 2003 and president of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina from 1997-1999.

He was one of the featured speakers at this year’s Pastors’ Conference at First Baptist Jacksonville, and Vines called him out of the audience to pray at the beginning of the Feb. 7 service in which Vines preached his last sermon. While never mentioning any future plans, some viewed the act as an implicit signal of Brunson’s future call to Jacksonville after months of speculation in Florida and Texas that he would be Vines’ successor.

“These are exciting times in our church and next Sunday is going to be an historical day in the life of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville,” Judson Whorton, chairman of the pulpit committee, told the congregation. “This will be the first time that our members will have the opportunity to vote on a new pastor, and this has not been done in more than 65 years. So it truly will be historical.”

Whorton told the congregation the Dallas pastor would be “preaching in view of a call” in both morning and evening services and the church would hold a special business meeting following the morning service to vote on him.

“We want you to be much in prayer for that service, we want you to invite people and we want you to be here,” he said.

The recommendation of Brunson had the unanimous approval of the pulpit committee, according to a statement posted Feb. 12 to the Jacksonville church’s website.

No timetable was given for when Brunson would begin his ministry in Jacksonville, although Rodney Brooks, assistant pastor for worship, followed Whorton’s announcement by telling the congregation: “From here until the time the Lord calls our new pastor ... we have some wonderful Bible preachers and teachers lined up for us every Sunday.” Brooks named some of the guest preachers –- O.S. Hawkins, Paige Patterson, Jimmy Scroggins, Anthony George and David Allen.

“Dr. Brunson is a terrific preacher, and we hate to lose him,” longtime First Baptist Dallas leader Jack Pogue told the Fort Worth Star Telegram Feb. 11. “If they like good preaching in Jacksonville, they have picked a wonderful man for the job.”

Brunson and his wife, Debbie, have three children. He is a graduate of Furman University and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary.

[WinthropGrad]

Dr. Vines is actually moving up here to North Georgia. He is going to join our church staff (First Baptist Woodstock) and preach on occassions when Pastor Johnny is out of town. I am very excited about this.

[Sly Fox]

Interesting, you don't generally see people move AWAY from Florida when they retire.

[jvegas14]

Interesting, you don't generally see people move AWAY from Florida when they retire.

1. Hurricanes
1a. Climate

2. His home state

[Sly Fox]

I can think of a million reasons not to live in Florida. Its just against the grain to retire from the Sunshine State.