Our Christian foundation is what makes our university unique. This is the place to bring prayer requests, discuss theological issues and how to become better Champions for Christ.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

#623499
There is a range of beliefs among SBC members, in my experience, concerning free will and TULIP/5-point Calvinism.

A local teacher in my local district started a private school, and in reading the statement of faith, this jumped out at me:

"We believe that salvation is by God alone as He sovereignly chooses those He will save. We believe His choice is based on His grace, not on any human individual merit or unforeseen faith."

https://www.maricopachristianacademy.co ... t-of-faith

The school will be housed at the First Baptist Church, which is SBC and is quite old in our community. If you look around the link, you may get sticker shock with the tuition, but in Arizona, there are generous ESA grants that enable families to afford private schools, even if they aren't wealthy. This is very controversial among those who don't want tax dollars funding school choice. :)

I was wondering what the relative prevalence of views on free will vs. TULIP are among Southern Baptists. Does one view kind of predominate? Is this a controversial or contentious issue within congregations? Is there a wide range of views on this from congregation to congregation? Most Southern Baptists I know seem to believe in free will in practice, and I don't know if this is in technical conflict with their creedal beliefs. I'm sure outside of the SBC, with other Baptists, the range of beliefs grows.

Thanks in advance for insight into this!
#623501
Rubicon wrote: March 15th, 2021, 8:59 am Is this a controversial or contentious issue within congregations? Is there a wide range of views on this from congregation to congregation?

Thanks in advance for insight into this!
Yes and yes.

Some of my favorite teachers don't agree.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvinism- ... anism.html
Rubicon liked this
#623507
It is a source of continued controversy in theological circles. I hear SBC pastors lament the influence of reformed theology all the time. But it seems most of the Big Six seminaries aree at least indulging if not outright endorsing predestination these days.

My issue always becomes when churches/pastors focus so much on election that it cripples outreach and evangelism. Sadly that is becoming a prevalent issue these days.

Back in the day, the name of a church often told you a great deal about its theological positions. Today the Free Wills & Reformeds have disappeared from names. But honestly most attendees don't care as much about these positions as paid clergy would assume.
JK37 liked this
#623638
There has been division among Baptists for as long as there have been organized Baptists.

The OG Baptist organizations in England were named by their view of redemption - the General Baptists and the Particular Baptists. The Particular Baptists were the ones who ended up becoming the driving missionary force in England (William Carey for one) - though there was no insignificant controversy when Andrew Fuller published his Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation which started the Particular Baptist emphasis on missions back in 1785.

In the US you had the Sandy Creek Baptists and the (I think - my Baptist History class was a long time ago, and my notes burned when the house burned) Charleston Baptists. Charleston were more Calvinistic, and Sandy Creek were more revivalistic -- and of course you've got mixes and combinations of both influences in American churches through to today.
#623647
Glad this was brought up. I almost mentioned it the other day, when I spoke about the way I have streamlined my personal beliefs and what things are important.
I am a 100% TULIP boy. I could go on and on about this subject, but hopefully can make it very short.
1. Calvinism has become more prevalent today than it was 50 years ago. And a lot less prevalent than 150 years ago.
2. Most Calvinist are more educated and smarter than those, who despise the doctrines of grace. (not me of course). There are exceptions or course, but in general that is true.
3. The people who don't believe or hate Calvinism, are much more adamant in their beliefs and much more apt to break fellowship with those who believe. (My FIL was a Baptist pastor for over 50 years and I saw it many, many times). Hyle's cult is another good example. (The stories I could tell about that place and how man-worship has enabled sexual abuses beyond belief).
4. Personally, even though I am a firm believer, I don't get worked up over it. Not a mountain to die on.
5. Tulip does not have anything to do with minimizing evangelism or foreign missions. (lots of personal experiences).
6. Believing has made me much more thankful for my salvation and ultimately a better christian witness.
7. People's beliefs evolve. I have somewhere in my belongings, a hand-written letter from Jerry Sr. proclaiming his firm belief in the 5 points of Calvinism. It was written in the early 60's as I recall. Later in his life, he would occasionally take veiled shots at Calvinism and veiled agreements. In private he would proclaim his beliefs for grace, more than in public.
8. The "Prince of Preachers," C.H. Spurgeon, was a hard-core Calvinist as well as one of the most evangelistic men in history. (He was also just a human, like the rest of us, filthy rags.).
Might be interesting to see where this goes. I am going to TRY and stay out of it, because in the end, it is not a major deal ie. virgin birth.
ALUmnus, Rubicon, Dalegarz1 liked this
#623655
viewtopic.php?p=619887#p619887

Predestined, elect? I think it has something to do with God's story being played out on earth. God is watching His story play out and knows every scene in advance beginning to end and everyone's role in it. So do we have choice and freewill? I think yes. God just knows who's coming and who's rejecting before they do. The video linked above helps me wrap my mind around it.
Last edited by TH Spangler on March 28th, 2021, 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
#623673
JK37 wrote: March 19th, 2021, 5:17 am I think the Mormon came over to us Baptists knowing full-well what this debate does to us, and just wanted to stir the pot for an easy chuckle. :lol:
No, not at all. I like discussions, and I know from experience that there is a range of thought on this. I just don't know enough about it firsthand (like in my immediate circle or congregation).
#623674
flameshaw wrote: March 18th, 2021, 8:20 pm Glad this was brought up. I almost mentioned it the other day, when I spoke about the way I have streamlined my personal beliefs and what things are important.
I am a 100% TULIP boy. I could go on and on about this subject, but hopefully can make it very short.
1. Calvinism has become more prevalent today than it was 50 years ago. And a lot less prevalent than 150 years ago.
2. Most Calvinist are more educated and smarter than those, who despise the doctrines of grace. (not me of course). There are exceptions or course, but in general that is true.
3. The people who don't believe or hate Calvinism, are much more adamant in their beliefs and much more apt to break fellowship with those who believe. (My FIL was a Baptist pastor for over 50 years and I saw it many, many times). Hyle's cult is another good example. (The stories I could tell about that place and how man-worship has enabled sexual abuses beyond belief).
4. Personally, even though I am a firm believer, I don't get worked up over it. Not a mountain to die on.
5. Tulip does not have anything to do with minimizing evangelism or foreign missions. (lots of personal experiences).
6. Believing has made me much more thankful for my salvation and ultimately a better christian witness.
7. People's beliefs evolve. I have somewhere in my belongings, a hand-written letter from Jerry Sr. proclaiming his firm belief in the 5 points of Calvinism. It was written in the early 60's as I recall. Later in his life, he would occasionally take veiled shots at Calvinism and veiled agreements. In private he would proclaim his beliefs for grace, more than in public.
8. The "Prince of Preachers," C.H. Spurgeon, was a hard-core Calvinist as well as one of the most evangelistic men in history. (He was also just a human, like the rest of us, filthy rags.).
Might be interesting to see where this goes. I am going to TRY and stay out of it, because in the end, it is not a major deal ie. virgin birth.
Interesting thoughts, and I love the conviction (we all have our things that "get us out of bed in the morning" more than other things --- they differ by person).

Regarding #5 above, I've seen cheap shots along these lines (i.e., "If it's all predestined, then what's the point of missionary work? I'm just going to choose what God already willed me to choose, anyway," etc.) But, in practice, it doesn't manifest this way to those who are convinced of it, as you point out.

From what I can see, it boils down to the ultimate importance one puts on God's sovereignty.
flameshaw, Dalegarz1 liked this
#623679
Rubicon wrote: March 19th, 2021, 4:26 pm
flameshaw wrote: March 18th, 2021, 8:20 pm Glad this was brought up. I almost mentioned it the other day, when I spoke about the way I have streamlined my personal beliefs and what things are important.
I am a 100% TULIP boy. I could go on and on about this subject, but hopefully can make it very short.
1. Calvinism has become more prevalent today than it was 50 years ago. And a lot less prevalent than 150 years ago.
2. Most Calvinist are more educated and smarter than those, who despise the doctrines of grace. (not me of course). There are exceptions or course, but in general that is true.
3. The people who don't believe or hate Calvinism, are much more adamant in their beliefs and much more apt to break fellowship with those who believe. (My FIL was a Baptist pastor for over 50 years and I saw it many, many times). Hyle's cult is another good example. (The stories I could tell about that place and how man-worship has enabled sexual abuses beyond belief).
4. Personally, even though I am a firm believer, I don't get worked up over it. Not a mountain to die on.
5. Tulip does not have anything to do with minimizing evangelism or foreign missions. (lots of personal experiences).
6. Believing has made me much more thankful for my salvation and ultimately a better christian witness.
7. People's beliefs evolve. I have somewhere in my belongings, a hand-written letter from Jerry Sr. proclaiming his firm belief in the 5 points of Calvinism. It was written in the early 60's as I recall. Later in his life, he would occasionally take veiled shots at Calvinism and veiled agreements. In private he would proclaim his beliefs for grace, more than in public.
8. The "Prince of Preachers," C.H. Spurgeon, was a hard-core Calvinist as well as one of the most evangelistic men in history. (He was also just a human, like the rest of us, filthy rags.).
Might be interesting to see where this goes. I am going to TRY and stay out of it, because in the end, it is not a major deal ie. virgin birth.
Interesting thoughts, and I love the conviction (we all have our things that "get us out of bed in the morning" more than other things --- they differ by person).

Regarding #5 above, I've seen cheap shots along these lines (i.e., "If it's all predestined, then what's the point of missionary work? I'm just going to choose what God already willed me to choose, anyway," etc.) But, in practice, it doesn't manifest this way to those who are convinced of it, as you point out.

From what I can see, it boils down to the ultimate importance one puts on God's sovereignty.
I agree. Have heard it said that "if God is sovereign at all, he is all sovereign". Kinda makes sense to me. There is no such thing as being a "little pregnant." 8)
#624157
That was the reason that Fuller wrote The Gospel Worthy of All Acceptation. He was trying to persuade the "hyper Calvinists" in Britain that they DID in fact have an Evangelistic Responsibility. There was a definite attitude that "If God wants them to be saved, young man, then He will save them and He doesn't need your help."
#624336
That's a good point. Baptists have a tendency to take themselves a little too seriously when it comes to evangelism. On the other hand, some interpretations on predestination can be excessive. Denying the existence of the will, undermines all the admonitions of scripture. There' seems to be a mystery there, but it doesn't seem to be fully comprehensible within the bounds of time and space.
Dondi Costin - LU President

Ive gone there a few times since moving to texas[…]

NCAA Realignment Megathread

Duke Gonzaga B12? https://larrybrownsports.com/co[…]

FlameFans Fantasy Baseball

We are on!!! Hope to see everyone tonight at 9:30[…]

Another player that most people who post on here[…]