[ATrain]

1. Living together doesn't equal having sex. You just proved what happens when you assume things.

2. Statistics are not in the favor of those that do it and I even said it wasn't the recommended route. However, b/c we did end up going that route when he got a detail with his job down here for a month, it confirmed that we did want to be together (thus why we got engaged) and taught that there wasn't much to learn on how to live together. No one has any specifically assigned chore that's expected, things just get done as time and energy allows. There have been no fights over doing the dishes, laundry, etc. It also helped that we lived like we were practically married anything (again...take sex out of the equation...I'm talking finances, time together, etc...)

[SuperJon]

Of course, someone who is, you know, born-again, brought from death to life, made a new creation, adopted by the Father, filled with the Spirit, daily repentant, being sanctified to the image of Christ, been saved by grace to go and sin no more, they would never even consider that route. That's because sin is serious and bad, always a no-no. So anyone considering marriage, I'd avoid doing that, not good advice.

That's a bit much. Even Christians make bad decisions. I know plenty of Christians who have lived together and are actually following Jesus. It was a place that they withheld from him, but that doesn't disqualify them from being a Christian.

[PAmedic]

Yeah, that's a pretty common approach among non-Christians. Typically doesn't bode well for an actual marriage. Sad, really.

Of course, someone who is, you know, born-again, brought from death to life, made a new creation, adopted by the Father, filled with the Spirit, daily repentant, being sanctified to the image of Christ, been saved by grace to go and sin no more, they would never even consider that route. That's because sin is serious and bad, always a no-no. So anyone considering marriage, I'd avoid doing that, not good advice.

maybe the most sanctimonious, arrogant post I've read on here in what, 8 years now?

and thats saying something. congrats

you win the newly minted "DB of the century award"*

can't imagine why people hate Christians

for the record- my wife and I lived together for 6 yrs before getting married. We've been together 15 years now, going stronger than ever, great kids, great life.

*(technically not a personal attack- all here are eligible)

[adam42381]

Yeah, that's a pretty common approach among non-Christians. Typically doesn't bode well for an actual marriage. Sad, really.

Of course, someone who is, you know, born-again, brought from death to life, made a new creation, adopted by the Father, filled with the Spirit, daily repentant, being sanctified to the image of Christ, been saved by grace to go and sin no more, they would never even consider that route. That's because sin is serious and bad, always a no-no. So anyone considering marriage, I'd avoid doing that, not good advice.

maybe the most sanctimonious, arrogant post I've read on here in what, 8 years now?

and thats saying something. congrats

you win the newly minted "DB of the century award"*

can't imagine why people hate Christians

[JakeP50]

Yeah, that's a pretty common approach among non-Christians. Typically doesn't bode well for an actual marriage. Sad, really.

Of course, someone who is, you know, born-again, brought from death to life, made a new creation, adopted by the Father, filled with the Spirit, daily repentant, being sanctified to the image of Christ, been saved by grace to go and sin no more, they would never even consider that route. That's because sin is serious and bad, always a no-no. So anyone considering marriage, I'd avoid doing that, not good advice.

maybe the most sanctimonious, arrogant post I've read on here in what, 8 years now?

and thats saying something. congrats

you win the newly minted "DB of the century award"*

can't imagine why people hate Christians

+1

[ATrain]

Its ok guys, he just wants to take every opportunity to jump on me about how I'm not really a Christian, not really married, etc...its cool, he has every right to speak his mind just as I have every right to speak mine, although I definitely do appreciate the support.

And of course, DB = dingbat, right Medic? (and BTW...I agree with you).

Finally, here are the circumstances surrounding my living with my husband prior to getting married.

1/2013 - We meet at the Gay Christian Network conference in Phoenix, AZ. We're roommates with two other guys. We start hanging out by ourselves, we get to like each other. We have a lot of things in common. We leave conference for our respective homes in Buffalo (him) and VA Beach (me).
2/2013 - We spend President's Day weekend together in DC. We share a hotel room, hang out with other GCN folk at our annual President's Day gathering, decide we want to start dating.
7/2013 - After flights and drives between Virginia Beach and Norfolk, he has an opportunity to spend a month in VA on detail as a supervisor for his agency. We live together in an extended stay hotel room for a month, get engaged.
10/2013 - FDA grants his transfer request to VA. We get an apartment together.
4/5/2014 - Legally married in DC.

Yes, we did spend the night together many nights before getting married. Considering the distance, it was just a pragmatic thing to do. Do that stats show that those who live together before marriage have a higher divorce rate? Yes. Is it the recommended route? No. Are there exceptions? Yes. Myself and Medic being 2 of them, SJ knowing some as well. Life isn't all black and white, our various experiences show that.

[Purple Haize]

I believe that if you break out the stats for those already engaged or intending on marriage before they move in together have better odds than the other way around

[ALUmnus]

[maybe the most sanctimonious, arrogant post I've read on here in what, 8 years now?

You must not be reading any of Paul's letters.

Hey, I knew some on here would take it this way. And, predictably, it's the usual characters taking the same sorry stances. Shocking. Nothing new, I'm just more disappointed in the people who say nothing.

[ATrain]

I believe that if you break out the stats for those already engaged or intending on marriage before they move in together have better odds than the other way around

Probably true, but I haven't seen those stats.

[Purple Haize]

[maybe the most sanctimonious, arrogant post I've read on here in what, 8 years now?

You must not be reading any of Paul's letters.

Hey, I knew some on here would take it this way. And, predictably, it's the usual characters taking the same sorry stances. Shocking. Nothing new, I'm just more disappointed in the people who say nothing.

Good thing most people look at me as a rather unusual character

[Purple Haize]

I believe that if you break out the stats for those already engaged or intending on marriage before they move in together have better odds than the other way around

Probably true, but I haven't seen those stats.

I said it, how can it not be true?

This was something I was reading in a doctors office. The decline had to do with several things. First being there was a finite period of time before they would be married, generally only a few months at most. It gave the couple a sense of purpose in working together to get some of the day to day stuff squared away without the 'pressure'. Sort of a dry run at life after 'I do'
The other reason was similar to yours in that one member of the couple was going to 'homeless' do to a lease running out or a house sold etc.

As was said earlier, it's more important to understand the day to day operations of your life moving forward than anything else. Unfortunately, lots of people spend more time planning their wedding and honeymoon than they do preparing for the day after the honeymoon moving forward

[ATrain]

[maybe the most sanctimonious, arrogant post I've read on here in what, 8 years now?

You must not be reading any of Paul's letters.

Hey, I knew some on here would take it this way. And, predictably, it's the usual characters taking the same sorry stances. Shocking. Nothing new, I'm just more disappointed in the people who say nothing.

And you continue to belittle those who disagree with you. Nothing new there either.

This thread was/is about pre-marital counseling. Obviously when marriages start off, there are bumps, others shared about their experiences, I shared mine...and then you had to jump on it from the standpoint that I'm "not actually married," and "not a Christian." I'm sorry if you don't see my marriage as valid or think God doesn't see it as valid...last time I checked I didn't ask your opinion or for your counsel of what God may or may not think, but that is irrelevant. The truth is, I am married...to another man...and if we're going to talk about marriage, I should be able to mention mine and share my experiences. Just because you may not agree with it because my spouse has the same anatomical features I do, doesn't mean that there aren't things that can't be learned from it.

[BJWilliams]

You two...if youre gonna go after each other like cats and dogs, could you do it offline or in PMs or something?

[Kolzilla41]

Don't make BJ get Jr involved. It is incredible to read this thread and see how blurred the lines are. I understand we're in a different day and age but it doesn't make it okay just because it happened/is happening.

[Purple Haize]

You two...if youre gonna go after each other like cats and dogs, could you do it offline or in PMs or something?

Why? I think this is a perfect place for it. If you don't like it......wait for it......don't read it

[SuperJon]

Don't make BJ get Jr involved. It is incredible to read this thread and see how blurred the lines are. I understand we're in a different day and age but it doesn't make it okay just because it happened/is happening.

It's one thing to call a sin a sin and tell people they're wrong for what they're doing. It's a whole different ballgame to say there's no chance someone is a Christian if they move in with their boyfriend/girlfriend before they're married.

[flamesfilmguy]

You must not be reading any of Paul's letters.

Have YOU read Pauls letters?

Romans 2
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Seriously man? I was just married. my wife and I chose not to live with each other before we got married. one of the main reasons is because i made a bone headed mistake 8 years ago before i dated my wife and lost the most important gift I could have given her. She however waited. we chose not to move in together because I knew the temptation would be very bad for me. For others it may work. For me it did not. Do I judge those who do? no. of course not. Do you judge me because i made a mistake when i was a senior in high school and say that I am not a Christian? I would hope not.

My point is YOU cannot judge based on your human discernment whether or not someone is a christian. The Bible EXPLICITLY talks about that. I believe when I get to go hang out with Jesus, based on what I know about him, that I'll see Atrain when i get there. does that mean I agree with his choices? no but it doesn't stop me from loving him, being his friend, etc. Love God Love people.

*Steps off second soap box of the day*

[BJWilliams]

You two...if youre gonna go after each other like cats and dogs, could you do it offline or in PMs or something?

Why? I think this is a perfect place for it. If you don't like it......wait for it......don't read it

Its fine when you can have a civil discussion. this is quickly devolving from that point.

[JK37]

Passing by the homo-argument, is the Bible explicitly clear on the topic of a couple living together? I get no sex. But the closest I can come is the "no stumblingblock" angle. Which is fine.

Also, at what moment does God believe marriage begins. Because while the institution of marriage is from God, the ceremony of it is - to my knowledge - a creation of man's. So at what moment does marriage begin? Living together, sex, ceremony, or something else?

[Purple Haize]

You two...if youre gonna go after each other like cats and dogs, could you do it offline or in PMs or something?

Why? I think this is a perfect place for it. If you don't like it......wait for it......don't read it

Its fine when you can have a civil discussion. this is quickly devolving from that point.

I don't see a problem with it. If you do.....you know it's coming........don't read it

[Purple Haize]

Passing by the homo-argument, is the Bible explicitly clear on the topic of a couple living together? I get no sex. But the closest I can come is the "no stumblingblock" angle. Which is fine.

Also, at what moment does God believe marriage begins. Because while the institution of marriage is from God, the ceremony of it is - to my knowledge - a creation of man's. So at what moment does marriage begin? Living together, sex, ceremony, or something else?

Great questions.

[ALUmnus]

You must not be reading any of Paul's letters.

Have YOU read Pauls letters?

Romans 2
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Seriously man? I was just married. my wife and I chose not to live with each other before we got married. one of the main reasons is because i made a bone headed mistake 8 years ago before i dated my wife and lost the most important gift I could have given her. She however waited. we chose not to move in together because I knew the temptation would be very bad for me. For others it may work. For me it did not. Do I judge those who do? no. of course not. Do you judge me because i made a mistake when i was a senior in high school and say that I am not a Christian? I would hope not.

My point is YOU cannot judge based on your human discernment whether or not someone is a christian. The Bible EXPLICITLY talks about that. I believe when I get to go hang out with Jesus, based on what I know about him, that I'll see Atrain when i get there. does that mean I agree with his choices? no but it doesn't stop me from loving him, being his friend, etc. Love God Love people.

*Steps off second soap box of the day*

It's funny, you quoted all four verses, which is great! But it seems like the only concept you got out of that is "don't judge". Read those verses carefully, there's tremendous context there. And the biggest thing people love to throw away is that last word, repentance. Can there be faith without repentance?

And secondly, are we now to act like living together before marriage is an okay choice? Even for those who claim Christ as their saviour? A board member came to us, asking for advice on pre-marital counseling. Atrain had no reason to bring on his co-habitation into the discussion as being a viable option. And, as is typical, I get blasted for bringing a truth claim to dispute horrible, sinful advice. And, as is typical, I get "judged" for being "judgemental". Classic flamefans.

I get that you guys like Atrain as a friend, but you are being no friend to him by supporting his behaviour, even if it is with silence.

[Purple Haize]

I'm pretty sure ATrain knows how most of us feel. I don't see how ostracizing him is profitable for anyone. I'm also not sure how this quote does anything of value
Of course, someone who is, you know, born-again, brought from death to life, made a new creation, adopted by the Father, filled with the Spirit, daily repentant, being sanctified to the image of Christ, been saved by grace to go and sin no more, they would never even consider that route. That's because sin is serious and bad, always a no-no. So anyone considering marriage, I'd avoid doing that, not good advice.

If it makes you feel better to talk down to everyone that's fine. But to not expect reaction to it is naive. Also, PA prefaced his statement by saying Non Christians and JK brought up a couple of great points.

[Kolzilla41]

Don't make BJ get Jr involved. It is incredible to read this thread and see how blurred the lines are. I understand we're in a different day and age but it doesn't make it okay just because it happened/is happening.

It's one thing to call a sin a sin and tell people they're wrong for what they're doing. It's a whole different ballgame to say there's no chance someone is a Christian if they move in with their boyfriend/girlfriend before they're married.

I was more referencing the justification that it happen and "we're okay" or "we've done better than the statistics because we moved in before marriage". I understand where ALUmnus is coming from and think that people are missing the overall point here. There is no magical or correct way to do pre-marital counseling. When you have two self-centered people come together to give of themselves for the benefit of the other, it's not a natural thing. Christians at least have an example in Christ as someone who gave selflessly and never allowed an "you owe me" mindset to rule His relationships. It takes work to make this work and a HUGE amount of grace from Jesus. I can tell you from experience it only gets harder when children come in the family as well. The other issue I see is in reference to FFG "don't judge" post. If I have a brother or sister in Christ continually living in a life that is contrary to what they confess to "believe", we are actually accountable to God to speak out against this. I do not understand what is wrong with this. Granted it should be done with humility, grace, and love but it still needs to be done. I am not defending or condemning anyone but when I've seen some pretty contrary views given a platform on here and to me, it is a head scratcher. And I do not consider myself a super conservative when it comes to issues like these.

[ATrain]

To confirm PH, I do know how the vast majority of the board feels about homosexuality. FFG also said he didn't agree with it. He said it when I first came out on this board. Flamerbob, your views are read and acknowledged.

JK's questions are also valid.

As for pre-marital counseling, every couple is different. Some want it/need it, others don't. Assuming that the man is going to cheat and that its the woman's job to prevent it sounds strange.

Peace out