Our Christian foundation is what makes our university unique. This is the place to bring prayer requests, discuss theological issues and how to become better Champions for Christ.

Moderators: jcmanson, Sly Fox, BuryYourDuke

By belcherboy
Registration Days Posts
#290407
I love Newspring and Perry Noble. I know he has a pretty "rough" way of preaching, but I really enjoy his messages. I noticed this announcement on their website this weekend, so decided to follow up on it:

http://www.newspring.cc/blog/an-announc ... ch-family/
An Announcement to the NewSpring Church Family

Recently, certain events occurred that Pastor Perry and the Church’s leadership feel the NewSpring Church family needs to know about.

Earlier this year, a critic of the church from the Anderson community created a critical blog site and posted numerous blogs disagreeing with the methods of NewSpring Church and the messages that Pastor Perry has preached, including basic theological doctrine.

In February an employee of the church met with this individual in an attempt to resolve any misunderstandings and listen to his concerns. Since that meeting, the frequency and intensity of the critical blogs have increased.

In the summer of 2009, one NewSpring employee and two volunteers, acting on their own accord and unbeknownst to the Church, began a wholly inappropriate campaign directed at the author of the blog site. None of their actions were known to, or condoned by, the Church or its leadership in any way.

When the Church’s leadership was contacted by the author of the blog site regarding the activities of these three individuals, the Church requested proof substantiating his claims. None was provided. However, he claimed he felt there was a conspiracy by the church’s leadership causing and encouraging this harassment.

When the church later found out that inappropriate activity had taken place by an employee and two volunteers, the employee was immediately terminated and the two volunteers were removed from service to the Church.

Around the same time, a NewSpring executive pastor and his wife adopted a child that, coincidentally, the author of the blog site and his wife were also seeking to adopt. The decision with whom to place the child was made solely by the birth mother and was what she considered to be in the best interest of the child. Adoption is a legal process and it is a matter of public record that the Church was not a party to this adoption nor did the Church attempt to influence its outcome in any way.

On October 31st, the author of the blog site emailed the Church broadly outlining complaints of harassment and interference with his adoption efforts, and asking to meet with a Church representative. On November 17th, counsel for the Church met with the blog site author in an effort to resolve any conflicts he had with Pastor Perry or the Church. In the course of that meeting, the blog site author outlined a detailed list of grievances against the Church and his contention that there was a conspiracy by the Church to interfere with the adoption of a child.

Those grievances also included his belief that the church knowingly and willingly allowed this harassment and even encouraged it.

The blog site author ended the meeting with NewSpring’s counsel with a demand for payment of one and a half million dollars ($1,500,000.00) if he was allowed to share the pulpit with Pastor Perry during the Church’s weekend services or through various other “public options” in order to denounce the Church, its leadership, and its “culture of hatred.” Alternatively, the blog site author demanded payment of three million dollars ($3,000,000.00) from the Church in exchange for him to not reveal his complaints against the Church to the public. The Church, of course, rejected both offers.

NewSpring Church will not be subjected to hollow and exaggerated threats by critics of the Church seeking outrageous sums of money.

The Church is offering ministerial counseling to its former employee and two volunteers and is hopeful that it will, over time, result in their complete repentance and spiritual restoration. Pastor Perry and NewSpring continue to pray for all involved in this unfortunate situation.
Knowing there is always two sides to every story, here is a description of what brought on this mess. It is a long read, but VERY disturbing account. I really do hope this can be resolved. All I can envision is a 20/20 or Nightline story on this whole incident. This is the type of stuff churches should be FAR away from. Here is the other side of the story:

http://www.pajamapages.com/?p=3780
User avatar
By rueful
Registration Days Posts
#290412
I think the guys story makes a whole lot more sense than the churches. Also, I find some of the stuff that church does/says ridiculous
#290416
well this certainly sounds disturbing. the fact that anyone at any church would choose to harass someone like that, whether connected to church leadership or not, is wrong. when even regular volunteers do this then is fairly obvious that the church is NOT preaching to love your neighbors and your enemies.
#290435
SuperJon wrote:I'm only halfway through this thing and wow, this is ugly. This church will die if this stuff is true. I've talked to some people from the area that aren't surprised either.
I don't think this will affect the church much at all. It will definitely give it's enemies some more fuel, but the church is busting at the seams, and it is because Perry is a pretty dynamic preacher. Even if all of it is true, the only way this could cause the church to "die" is if it hurts Perry directly, and it seems he had nothing to do with any of these issues (outside of being the leader of the organization). I feel pretty sure he didn't let the "over the line" stuff happen with his knowledge (i.e. pornographic magazine subscription, stalking, harassing phone calls, homosexual statements, etc.)

In the end, I think this will cost Newspring some money, and reputation, but will probably wake up church leadership a little bit to this type of problem. I could see this costing them hundreds of thousands of dollars once legal fees and payments are made to the offended parties. I can guarantee that Perry will not like the cost of this lesson.
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#290443
Tony Morgan left that church in April.

All of this started happening in March.

If those two things happen to be related, then this could get ugly fast. Yeah, I probably used the wrong word in saying that the church would die, but this could affect them big time.
By pcguy09
Registration Days Posts
#290459
i'll throw this out at you, i am from anderson, but don't attend newspring b/c i really don't agree with the way they do things. and i've talked with some ppl who are high up there in the newspring chain and they are shocked, and agree with Dr. Duncan (the one suing newspring), alot has to do with the adoption stuff, the gay slurs, and threats against his family. I know Dr. Duncan pretty well, and never heard anything about it from him, or any grumblings about this around anderson. Apparently everything about the lawsuit and all that has been kept tightly underwraps for a while. I haven't read the whole blog post b/c its too long, and i really don't feel like getting into all of it.

But superjon, you are right. if this stuff turns out to be true, Newspring is in a lot of crap. Anderson has become mesmorized by newspring. Who knows where this thing will go, but it is pretty interesting
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By El Scorcho
Registration Days Posts
#290478
I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I've been waiting to see what would happen with Perry Noble. I didn't see how someone who speaks the way he does could stay out of trouble for very long. I don't particularly care for him, nor the people who idolize him. I do, however, hope that this situation can get resolved without too much of a mess. For better or for worse, it's this kind of stuff that the world pays attention to and remembers most about the church.
By belcherboy
Registration Days Posts
#290517
El Scorcho wrote:I don't want to sound like a jerk, but I've been waiting to see what would happen with Perry Noble. I didn't see how someone who speaks the way he does could stay out of trouble for very long. I don't particularly care for him, nor the people who idolize him. I do, however, hope that this situation can get resolved without too much of a mess. For better or for worse, it's this kind of stuff that the world pays attention to and remembers most about the church.

He is definitely a different type of speaker. I'm a children's pastor for a fairly large church in Georgia, and have heard Perry speak at several conferences the past two years, and watch most his sermons online. His language makes many people blush, but his content is GREAT IMO. I work with singles and college aged kids at my church as well, and him and Andy Stanley are the two guys I use most when deciding what series I want to use with them. If you want to see an AWESOME message, go to http://www.newspring.cc/series/dontgetmarried and watch the first sermon in the series (start it about 38:00 into the stream, unless you want to watch music and announcements). It is a series on being single and how to look for a partner, and speaks volumes about the crowd he deals with (large college and singles crowd).

I think this situation is simply a lack of leadership, and I hope he learns from it. He needs to know what his staff is doing, and understand the dire consequences of not knowing. I really don't think this will affect NS growth much, as he is a great communicator, but I think it will cost them a large chunk of money and will put a bull's eye on Perry's back. So far, I think NS has not handled this well at ALL. There are always two sides to every story, so hopefully, for NS sake, the whole story has not been told. Although, this guys account is pretty convincing to me.
#290519
What. A. Nightmare. This is my take:

I find NewSpring distasteful, personally. I went there for a service in 2007, the "Cars" segment, when NewSpring's auditorium was filled with expensive [rented?] cars on display, and there was no prayer for the world or for those who suffer from poverty and injustice. That really rubbed me the wrong way. I have a really good friend who is all about this church, and the way he talks about it, it comes off really cultish. "Oh, and Perry said this" and "Perry said that." I've also heard that Perry routinely swears in his sermons for the sake of being hip or "culturally relevant" but you don't need to do that to achieve that goal. I'm not going to bash Perry Noble personally because that's not Christian, but I do take issue with his comment about "Reformed a-holes." This Reformed a-hole is just a bit skeptical of this church, especially because my friend, who is gaga for this place, essentially sets NewSpring as the standard for what the Christian Church should be. Every other church, in his opinion, does not preach the real gospel, because if they did, they of course, would look like NewSpring. He also told me that my baptism wasn't legitimate and that tradition and 2,000 years Church history is meaningless. Perry seems to be drawing even more lines in the body of Christ, consciously divorcing himself and his movement from the witness and faith of the martyrs, and the guidance of the Holy Spirt over the last two millennia. Is that the sort of thing that is taught at NewSpring?

Regardless, this is a problem that is taking place within the body of Christ, and as such, needs prayer from all of us, forgiveness, repentance, and reconciliation.
User avatar
By Sly Fox
Registration Days Posts
#290524
I think there seems to be exaggeration coming from multiple fronts in this situation. I'm not down with Noble (or Driscoll or others being profane for the sake of shock value) and I'm certainly not cool with what those idiots did to the Anderson prof.

That said, I don't think Perry is dismissing 2000 years of church tradition. And it wasn't until the middle ages that sprinkling became a recognized form of baptism. But I digress into an area that is not particularly germane to the topic.

I do enjoy some of Perry's insights and I actually am starting to really appreciate some of Furtick's writings recently. But the hero worship concerns me greatly. We were very fortunate that Doc never had a major stumble but the record shows that many who receive hero-type worship aren't always as successful in overcoming temptation. And the damage that comes from placing man on such a pedestal instead of Christ can be significant in and of itself.

As for Mr. Cockroaches bolting just before this thing blew up, it could be stated that it was his absence on the staff that allowed things to spiral out of control. By all accounts, Tony is doing well working for my fellow LU COMS buddy in Atlanta. Unless the dots are connected between Morgan and this mess then I don't think it is fair to drag him into this.

belcherboy - Where are you in Atlanta?
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#290526
By mentioning Morgan, I was implying he may have left because he knew this was going on and didn't agree with it. The timeline matches up. His resignation from NewSpring was so open ended that it very well could've been that. I'm not saying it definitely happened, but it's a pretty big coincidence.
User avatar
By Kolzilla41
Registration Days Posts
#290536
As was said before, this whole situation is just bizarre. I pray for the communities sake and all of the surrounding churches that the allegations are not true. It would be very sad to see the church kill their witness to the community.
#290557
Sly Fox wrote:
belcherboy - Where are you in Atlanta?

I'm south of Atlanta in Warner Robins, GA. The church I work for is Southside Baptist Church. I work with SEVERAL Liberty guys that I went to school with. We average around 2,300 a week. We've been talking about this whole Perry Noble thing since they posted their statement this last weekend.

I've got a question for some of the guys that aren't really fans of Noble. How does Noble compare with Dr. Falwell? Noble's ministry has been around for about 10 years now, and seems to have a similar beginning to Falwell (grew a church quickly, and has become a national celebrity preacher). Anyone who attended Liberty from 1980-2005 knows how controversial Falwell was. Although Falwell's controversy was over differing things, I remember hearing some crazy things and people that Falwell was associated with throughout my lifetime (I graduated from Liberty in 2000, a year before before the 9/11 statements were made). Falwell was known for making some bold, even outlandish, statements. Many in Lynchburg and surrounding communities did not like Thomas Road or Falwell. I can't tell you how many times I heard people reference the "Falwell worship" they felt that those associated with Thomas Road and Liberty University had. Knowing Falwell first hand as a student at LU, I simply adored the guy, but not just because of his celebrity status, more so because he was truly a man of God. A man of God that would sometimes suffer from "foot in mouth" syndrome. I think I view Noble in a similar way.
By SuperJon
Registration Days Posts
#290563
I'm not a fan of shock and awe, and from what little I've read about him and his church, it seems like that's used a lot. It's the Driscoll Effect. I'm not dissing the guy personally cause I know nothing about him and don't know him, but I'm not a huge fan of his methodology.
User avatar
By rueful
Registration Days Posts
#290578
from what ive read of perry noble he makes driscolls tongue look like my grandmas. driscoll doesnt outright swear, he just doesnt tip toe around sensitive words
#290587
rueful wrote:from what ive read of perry noble he makes driscolls tongue look like my grandmas. driscoll doesnt outright swear, he just doesnt tip toe around sensitive words
Definitely have heard Driscoll swear in person.
By JK37
Registration Days Posts
#290605
kiltsareitchy07 wrote:I've also heard that Perry routinely swears in his sermons for the sake of being hip or "culturally relevant" but you don't need to do that to achieve that goal. I'm not going to bash Perry Noble personally because that's not Christian, but I do take issue with his comment about "Reformed a-holes."
A swearing mouth is nothing more than an incompetent mind attempting to express itself.

If Noble lacks the ability to successfully cummunicate his thoughts in any better way than this, than his goal is not to communicate, but rather to shock. I counter that those who appreciate his method - calling it "culturally relevant" - simply use him as an excuse for what is at least questionable behavior, and at worst a public and popular misrepresentation of the Christian life.

Very cultish.

The difference between Noble and Dr. Falwell is that while Noble shocks listeners in order to make the truth more appealing, Dr. Falwell wasn't afraid to state what he believed to be true, even if it happened to shock listeners.
#290615
belcherboy wrote:I've got a question for some of the guys that aren't really fans of Noble. How does Noble compare with Dr. Falwell?
In my opinion, it doesn't. The types of controversial comments they both uttered were entirely different in their nature. Noble shocks for shock value. Dr. Falwell shocked a certain type of American because they couldn't believe someone had the audacity to connect politics and faith so directly and with boldness. Very different things, IMHO.

I didn't say a lot about why I don't like Noble, but I've seen him speak a few times via satellite sermons and I haven't come away impressed. He sure tries hard to be funny, but most of what he does came across as lame to me and seemed to lack substance. I think the phrase "trying too hard" is what comes to mind. I dunno. I'm not going to discount the opinions of others, especially those who've had more direct contact with him than I have. I also take LU alums a little more seriously when they talk about churches and pastors as we have all typically experienced more than our fair share of them. I just never felt like the content I got from Noble lived up to the hype I'd heard.

But the real problem for me comes from the cult of personality which has already been discussed in this thread. Churches so strongly driven by a single personality are (in my experience), more often than not, headed for one or more train wrecks. TRBC and LU actually avoided this for the most part and amazingly enough even survived the transition after the loss of the driving personality in the ministry. I think most of us have always seen that as another sign that LU truly is something special. It's just not the case for most churches. Further, I personally think "the big personality" does more harm than good. I've been privy to far too many behind the scenes details of those guys at those churches and it just doesn't sit well with me anymore.

Just my $0.02 and I'm sure plenty of others would disagree.
By JK37
Registration Days Posts
#290618
Well put, Scorchy.

I don't prefer Noble's method, but he does preach the gospel. His critics simply don't prefer his method, but they take it too far when they judge him to be wrong. As long as he's preaching the Gospel, who can say?

What is so discouraging to me is that Christians waste energy fighting over whose method is "right." Its the Gospel. People are being led to Christ. These fractions only accomplish one thing: inhibition of the spread of the Gospel. Let every man study and choose, and let God be the judge.
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By Kolzilla41
Registration Days Posts
#290619
I agree with you Scorch. I have been getting to know the Church Planting crowd here lately and there is the same type of issue. There are guys that are admired and studied like Piper and Chandler but then there are other guys that are idolized. Its sad to see people truly take their eyes off what really is important (Loving Christ and those around them).
By belcherboy
Registration Days Posts
#290648
Thanks for the responses. I only compared Dr. Falwell to Noble because many of the same things said about Noble and NS, were said about Falwell and TRBC. I can't tell you how often I heard how TRBC and LU were cult like places. How worshiped Falwell was. How Falwell speaks a language of hate. There were always rumors of Falwell being a dirty businessman. Defaulting on loans, not handling problems within his organization correctly, basically Falwell being a renegade and running roughshod over people. Noble has the same reputation. Obviously we have over 50 years of ministry to look back on with Falwell and judge him appropriately. We can see Falwell for what he truly was, and how great a leader he was by how his ministries continue to thrive in his absence. Noble doesn't have that same luxury with only 10 years of ministry. I wonder if we will be saying similar things about Noble after 30+ years of ministry?
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