[bbrothers224]

maybe you may have known one of my uncles who went there back then. His name is John Brothers. He's a pastor of an independent baptist church in chester, va. now back to your question. yes, trbc had alter calls for every service, but the alter callls that i witnessed in those services that were just for students after any form of break...were not alter calls for salvation (at least not promoted that way). nope, these alter calls were promoted in a manner where it was a given that the students blew it while away from liberty and they needed to repent.

[4everfsu]

I looked up your Uncle in the 75 annual, and I remember his face, don't remember talking to him. He was two years behind me. BTW I am glad he is still in the ministry preaching and being used by God. All christian schools have the type of sermon after student break, even BJU did the same. Me I would give an alter call always for salvation first, now as far as getting someone under conviction for straying during break. Let me just say casting the net for salvation first, will bring in alot more overall I believe.

[bbrothers224]

what's funny (to me anyway) was that he sent his 4 kids to http://www.pcci.edu/ Pensacola Christian in the early 90s and later because he thought that Liberty was getting a bit more liberal for his tastes.

[4everfsu]

We used to call PCC BJU South. Nice conversation with you Bbrother

[FlamingYalieWahoo]

I'm not sure if this altar call discussion should continue here or under another thread - suggestions, comments?? I can say that in the 80s as a LBC/LU student altar calls were frequent at TRBC - but I don't remember any of them being directed at student indiscretions during breaks (I'm getting old so I might just be forgetting). I do remember those folks we referred to as "aisle athletes" who made their way down the aisle at every opportunity. I also know that the counseling center hated it when there were revival services because they usually were flooded for weeks after the meetings with students in spiritual crisis.

I'm a firm believer in offering times of "altar call" for salvation, rededication, prayer, etc. but wouldn't it make more sense (and be more like the biblical model) if evangelism and conversions took place outside of the church so that new converts were acknowledging their new relationship with Christ and taking their place among the saints at the altar? It seems likely that for churches that offer frequent evangelistic altar calls there's a potential for over dependence on them (and the church staff) to be the primary means of evangelism which doesn't seem quite right. Thoughts, comments???

[alabama24]

I believe that the Sunday morning service should not be for informational purposes, but rather to change hearts and lives. Part of that may include an alter call but I believe that "coming forward" is one of the least effective ways to change lives. Often people come forward to ease their guilt and then they stop feeling guilty when they do. A good sermon should, though, give an exhortation to action.

I also believe that churches need to be stronger in accountability and that is accomplished only through relationships, i.e. small groups.

alabama24

[El Scorcho]

It seems likely that for churches that offer frequent evangelistic altar calls there's a potential for over dependence on them (and the church staff) to be the primary means of evangelism which doesn't seem quite right.

Agreed. I also don't know how the rest of you feel, but when I was at LU there were no less than 5 scheduled altar calls per week. There were only 4,700 of us on campus, and usually a lot less than that were present for those altar calls. It got to the point where I saw people questioning their salvation over and over and over because they were hearing heavy evangelism messages several times a week. I am not against evangelizing by any means, but I think you have to know your crowd as well. It was too much, and the repetitive altar calls just served to foster an emotionalism that rarely improved the spiritual life/condition of those who were responding. My point: I think altar calls are functional and useful, when used judiciously and appropriately. I just don't think they're always appropriate.

I also think altar calls have a tendency to make the make public recognition process enter the picture too early. Not to say that anyone should be ashamed of what they're doing when they respond, but just because a sinner is answering the call doesn't mean they're ready to publicly profess that. My understanding has always been that this was the point of baptism later. So, in the typical service, I much prefer for a church to say "come talk to us after the service one on one" than "come down here right now in front of everyone". I differ when it comes to services meant for the general public or a secular audience. That's a different environment entirely.

[JDUB]

i think that there should be an invitation at the end of the service. that isn't necessarily the same thing as an alter call. i think the pastor should invite people to make a decision (get saved, change something in their lives, etc), but not call them down front. i mean, alter calls aren't bad by any means, but i think that like someone above said, it can be a way for people to call attention to themselves. but there should be an invitation to make a decision, and i think they can open up the alter for people to come fowards who want to but not act like they have to go the alter to make a decision, because they can do that just fine. and also they should always mention that they can come talk to the pastor/staff after the service
mine main thing is like bryson said, something needs to happen at the end of the service. not just end. there needs to be a challenge made

[TallyW]

I see good on both sides of this coin... I'm not sure it's an either/or.

I've also seen the bad as mentioned here but what I will say is that I had several guys on my hall and even one relative who honestly came to Christ for the first time because of one of these routine alter calls. So while it sends some people into a spiritual balancing act, for others it provides a time and place to anchor their faith. They know for sure for certain. Truth is that the alter call is simply a milepost. If a person wants to accept Christ they are saved before they say a prayer or get to the bottom of the Vines Center. Their heart and attitude have been changed... they've already acknowledged Jesus as Savior... so most (in my book as far we can get from Romans 10) already saved by the time they get there. The act of the call helped them nudge over the edge of decision.

Being a Pastor this is one of the things we've discussed in our own services. We don't do alter calls. We do ask people to lift their hands and communicate with us via connection card or in person. We do urge them to share their decision with others. Like some have said... I do believe what's most important isn't what that person did at a call... but rather what they do after.

Do they 'acknowledge Jesus before men'? Do they seek out guidance? Do they present themselves for baptism?

Andy Stanley was asked this question once. I heard him speak at Big Stuf Youth Camp and they had an informal lunch. One of the YP's asked Andy about the previous night's service. The YP asked "Andy... last night it seemed as though the Spirit was moving... I was a little disappointed there wasn't an alter call to wrap it all up." Andy responded with what I think is a great understanding. He said "Yes, you're right... I chose not to do an alter call last night. I did one a few nights back and may do them in the future this week but I think we have a problem when we feel like we should always program a response to the Holy Spirit. The last thing I want is for these kids to think that when God speaks to them that they need a song and a preacher to tell them to respond by coming forward." He continued "We have to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. When we program the response for every service and every sermon... we get people away from the Spirit and onto man-made programming. So no... we didn't do an alter call and a lot of kids had to wrestle with God last night about what it means to respond. They couldn't just leave it at the alter... they had to take it to bed with them and I'm okay with that." (my quotes are paraphrases as I recall the conversation)

[givemethemic]

I am new to this thread and this is a very interesting one to say the least.....I have been at TRBC my whole life....I normally sit with Smoothie and SCAR....The point was made earlier about not going to TRBC when you attended Liberty...I felt that way my freshmen year because I had gone to LCA and when school is at the same place you go to church that can get kinda old....I don't feel the same way now and I really like TRBC..I like having the altar call....You never know who is in the seats...I will say this the last two weeks Jonathan's messages have been awesome!!!!

[Libertine]

As far as altar calls go, I would say that it depends on A). the church and B). the message that's been presented.
For instance, in a church the size of TR, there are going to be anywhere from a few to a thousand visitors during any given service and the odds that someone unsaved is in attendance are pretty high. For a church like that, a salvation altar call should be automatic.
For a smaller church like mine (40-100 people), everyone knows everyone and the pastors usually know where every person in the congregation stands spiritually. When there are visitors, they're easily identifiable and it only takes a few seconds to find out who they are and where they come from. In a church like this, a lot more time, effort and ministry can be channelled into instructing and building up the believer as opposed to reaching the lost. In this smaller environment, it's also more effective to ditch the salvation altar call entirely in favor of inviting the lost person to simply step out of the service with a "counselor". At our church, the altar is opened up a couple of times during any given service but hardly ever specifically for salvation.

[jcmanson]

I understand what you are saying Lib, and that makes sense. I have always gone to larger churches (1,000+ in attendance weekly), and at churches like that, I believe it is best that there is an altar call the high majority of the time.

[4everfsu]

Tally, I have to disagree. Just because someone leaves their seat to go down front may not mean they are already saved. I think some people may know they are lost but not sure what they have to do or should do. As I read your response first thing that came to my mind was of the Ethopian enuch, even as he read the Word, he need to talk to someone and someone right then, lol. So to me an alter call is not taking up a lot of our time when compared to someone making a decision that could affect his or her lifetime.
I hope I didn't misread or misunderstood your intent.

[BrysOn_G]

i agree with lib and jc on their last two posts. if it is a church like lib was describing, where there is a small congregation, i guess i don't necessarily see the need to automatically have an altar call if visitors are not present or if the sermon was not specific to "coming to Christ" or something like it.

jc, i agree with you also. honestly, if they sang verse after verse after verse of a hymn there at the end... people would just keep on coming. at TRBC do you notice that EVERY sunday, during EVERY verse of whichever song at the end, at least one person comes forward? shoot, keep singing charles.... they'll keep coming. i think it's great.

after reading what everyone has to say about the issue, it's undoubtedly a situational issue.

[TallyW]

I hope I didn't misread or misunderstood your intent.

You did. But you sure sounded good doing it.

I think you have a bad analogy. In my illustration I speak of people responding to needing Jesus as their Savior. In the story of the Ethiopian Eunich Philip was explaining who Jesus was in light of the book of Isaiah. I would call that the sermon.

So yeah... I think you misrepresented what I said by applying a false analogy. Show me the "sinners prayer" in the bible. In fact in that story we don't even see that... It just says "Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." The next verse they pick up with his baptism. There wasn't an alter call there either.

But again please read my comments... I explain both sides of my thought pattern.

[Ed Dantes]

I live in Virginia Beach, and for the longest time I didn't attend any church. Then, one of my buddies took me to a place called "Virginia Beach Christian Life Center", which is an off-shoot of Hillsong Church in Australia. At first, I thought it was kinda crazy, but I really liked it. My friend wound up moving out to D.C., and I still dodged church, but eventually I started going by myself. Now, I've been there for pretty much two years (and the name has since changed to "Wave Church" but I find myself wishing that I had been going there for longer. The pastor, Steve Kelly, is great, the p&w is awesome (although I do get a little annoyed when they do a song that I heard just a week earlier, and I still haven't done "How Great is our God" in months). In any event, if you're Assemblies of God and you like a fine church in Hampton Roads, check out "Wave".

[Ed Dantes]

I live in Virginia Beach, and for the longest time I didn't attend any church. Then, one of my buddies took me to a place called "Virginia Beach Christian Life Center", which is an off-shoot of Hillsong Church in Australia. At first, I thought it was kinda crazy, but I really liked it. My friend wound up moving out to D.C., and I still dodged church, but eventually I started going by myself. Now, I've been there for pretty much two years (and the name has since changed to "Wave Church" but I find myself wishing that I had been going there for longer. The pastor, Steve Kelly, is great, the p&w is awesome (although I do get a little annoyed when they do a song that I heard just a week earlier, and I still haven't done "How Great is our God" in months). In any event, if you're Assemblies of God and you like a fine church in Hampton Roads, check out "Wave".

Okay, so they just did "How Great is our God" on Sunday, and I'm not kidding, it had been MONTHS since I heard that one. I doubt I heard it in 2007. So, thanks to the anonymous FlameFans member who whispered in Pastor Steve's ear on my behalf for that one.