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By Just John
#525981 Today Jonathan Cain spoke in convo. He is known for 2 things...ex band member of Journey and third husband of prosperity preacherette and former girlfriend of Benny Hinn, Paula WhIte. It's the latter I find quite concerning, and frankly embarrassing that my beloved alma mater would have this guy. This follows up having another prosperity pimp, Darrel Scott, speaking several weeks ago.

Both of these we're connections Jr. made through the Trump campaign. I'm not a big Pres Trump fan but that has NO bearing here. These two are way off theologically, at best. Paula White selling prayer cloths on TV...please! Jerry Sr. was pragmatic and reached beyond his fundamental Baptist roots, a trait I admired immensely. But I think he would have considered this a bridge too far.
By ALUmnus
#525986 It's not a word to throw around lightly, but Paula White is a clear heretic. I can't believe the school would do this.
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By adam42381
#525987
ALUmnus wrote:It's not a word to throw around lightly, but Paula White is a clear heretic. I can't believe the school would do this.

Jr. does what he wants.
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By ECUnited
#525988 Actually he is still a member of Journey. Although he did release a 'Christian' CD recently. Haven't heard it, but I don't expect it to be very 'deep' theologically, considered who he's married to :roll:
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By Purple Haize
#525990
adam42381 wrote:
ALUmnus wrote:It's not a word to throw around lightly, but Paula White is a clear heretic. I can't believe the school would do this.

Jr. does what he wants.


I don't follow 'National Religous Leaders' like I used to Why do you say she is a heretic? Generally interested in what her heretical teachings are
Selling Holy Cloth is a tried and true Charasmatic/Televangelist fund raiser. I don't see an issue with having all sorts of different voices coming to speak at LU Convocation that's what it is there for. I do have to smile ruefully that he was playing an abbreviated Journey set! THAT should get the Old Guard rilled up ha.
By ALUmnus
#525996 Well the prosperity gospel is a heresy. The Word-Faith movement is pretty close (with many of the leaders and founders espousing heretical teachings). And she denies the Trinity, which automatically places you in the heretic category. And these aren't just personal, private beliefs...she teaches this to thousands, maybe millions, as pastor.

Oh, and that's contra to LU's long-held position about women pastors, yet from what I hear, Nasser referred to her as a pastor in his prayer.

LU's spiritual leadership is an absolute mess right now.
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By Purple Haize
#526000
ALUmnus wrote:Well the prosperity gospel is a heresy. The Word-Faith movement is pretty close (with many of the leaders and founders espousing heretical teachings). And she denies the Trinity, which automatically places you in the heretic category. And these aren't just personal, private beliefs...she teaches this to thousands, maybe millions, as pastor.

Oh, and that's contra to LU's long-held position about women pastors, yet from what I hear, Nasser referred to her as a pastor in his prayer.

LU's spiritual leadership is an absolute mess right now.


Thanks for the run down! I don't know much about her so it was helpful and I was too lazy to Google. Ha
The first part tells me you must not have spent a lot of time around Pentecostals or if you have you toss most of them in the Heretic bucket as well. The Prosperity Gospel is part of the Word of Faith movement along with a host of other interesting things. I would hesitate to call it heretical. But it is certainly ripe for Charlatans to take advantage of, I've certainly seen it
I have 0 issue with Women Evangelists / Pastors / Preachers but am certainly aware of contrarian views and respect the case for it
The Trinity thing is certainly troubling and if I really cared what she said or she was a candidate for the pulpit at the church I attend would bear very close scrutiny The Divinity of Christ is sort the Foundation of Christianity. Not a lot of wiggle room on that
Thanks again !
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By adam42381
#526006
ALUmnus wrote:And she denies the Trinity, which automatically places you in the heretic category. And these aren't just personal, private beliefs...she teaches this to thousands, maybe millions, as pastor.

Maybe she recently changed her views?

http://paulawhite.org/what-we-believe/
By ATrain
#526007 I wouldn't mind if LU changed its position on women being pastors, but the prosperity gospel foolishness is of grave concern. Will Joel Osteen be next?

That said, what was the message her husband gave to the student body?
By ALUmnus
#526009
Purple Haize wrote:The first part tells me you must not have spent a lot of time around Pentecostals or if you have you toss most of them in the Heretic bucket as well. The Prosperity Gospel is part of the Word of Faith movement along with a host of other interesting things. I would hesitate to call it heretical.


I would not ever call Pentecostals heretics, but their theology and teaching make them very susceptible to heretical pastors and teaching. The prosperity gospel is not the gospel, and is heretical as it preaches something that's not the gospel. The Word-Faith movement is founded and based on heresy. Now, does this mean that all churches and people who attend churches in this movement are heretics. Absolutely not. I would say most have no idea what's going on, and are led by pastors with very poor (if any) theological training. So, yeah, big mixed bag. But the "leaders", big problems. I would also add IHOP and NAR to this.
By ALUmnus
#526010 Here is something Dr. Michael Horton wrote before the inauguration that highlights some of what I've said and gives some background.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... 468b593bb0
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By Purple Haize
#526011
ALUmnus wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:The first part tells me you must not have spent a lot of time around Pentecostals or if you have you toss most of them in the Heretic bucket as well. The Prosperity Gospel is part of the Word of Faith movement along with a host of other interesting things. I would hesitate to call it heretical.


I would not ever call Pentecostals heretics, but their theology and teaching make them very susceptible to heretical pastors and teaching. The prosperity gospel is not the gospel, and is heretical as it preaches something that's not the gospel. The Word-Faith movement is founded and based on heresy. Now, does this mean that all churches and people who attend churches in this movement are heretics. Absolutely not. I would say most have no idea what's going on, and are led by pastors with very poor (if any) theological training. So, yeah, big mixed bag. But the "leaders", big problems. I would also add IHOP and NAR to this.


I haven't been to IHOP in forever. I prefer Cracker Barrel :pbjtime
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By BJWilliams
#526012
ATrain wrote:I wouldn't mind if LU changed its position on women being pastors, but the prosperity gospel foolishness is of grave concern. Will Joel Osteen be next?

That said, what was the message her husband gave to the student body?

Your third sentence is my only point on this matter.
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By prototype
#526020 For many on this board that push us to be open to alternative lifestyles, and open to different point of views - there are many on here that have no problem continuing to judge people they don't know personally or know their heart.
By ALUmnus
#526021 Well that was an unfortunate reply. Stop judging our hearts, Proto.


Okay, seriously, who would it take for LU to associate themselves with or give a platform for you to finally say "well, you know what, I think they may have too far this time"? I'd love to know the answer to that.
Do you think it's even in the realm of all possibilities that Jerry Jr makes mistakes and may have poor judgment? Can we say it's at least possible?
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By VAGolf
#526029
ALUmnus wrote:Well that was an unfortunate reply. Stop judging our hearts, Proto.


Okay, seriously, who would it take for LU to associate themselves with or give a platform for you to finally say "well, you know what, I think they may have too far this time"? I'd love to know the answer to that.
Do you think it's even in the realm of all possibilities that Jerry Jr makes mistakes and may have poor judgment? Can we say it's at least possible?


I don't have any issue with acknowledging that JFJR makes mistakes but I don't think you can ever argue that convo is one of them. Convo is not a church service and Liberty is not a church. Liberty is a school, and convocation is an opportunity. I'm not a fan of Steven Furtick, and I have little respect for the Osteen's. However, the purpose of convocation is not for students to be led in their religious beliefs. Maybe that was the purpose 20 years ago, but it's not that way any more and hasn't been for many years. They could bring in Bill Maher and I wouldn't care. In fact, I would appreciate it if they started bringing in even more diverse guests that do not align with what we hope every LU student believes. You don't learn anything by only listening to those who agree with you.
By ALUmnus
#526030
VAGolf wrote:I don't have any issue with acknowledging that JFJR makes mistakes but I don't think you can ever argue that convo is one of them. Convo is not a church service and Liberty is not a church. Liberty is a school, and convocation is an opportunity. I'm not a fan of Steven Furtick, and I have little respect for the Osteen's. However, the purpose of convocation is not for students to be led in their religious beliefs. Maybe that was the purpose 20 years ago, but it's not that way any more and hasn't been for many years. They could bring in Bill Maher and I wouldn't care. In fact, I would appreciate it if they started bringing in even more diverse guests that do not align with what we hope every LU student believes. You don't learn anything by only listening to those who agree with you.


Nobody has said or suggested that a diversity of opinion at convo is bad. But at least try to think through the significance of normalizing and approving of heretics at a Christian school.
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By VAGolf
#526031
ALUmnus wrote:
VAGolf wrote:I don't have any issue with acknowledging that JFJR makes mistakes but I don't think you can ever argue that convo is one of them. Convo is not a church service and Liberty is not a church. Liberty is a school, and convocation is an opportunity. I'm not a fan of Steven Furtick, and I have little respect for the Osteen's. However, the purpose of convocation is not for students to be led in their religious beliefs. Maybe that was the purpose 20 years ago, but it's not that way any more and hasn't been for many years. They could bring in Bill Maher and I wouldn't care. In fact, I would appreciate it if they started bringing in even more diverse guests that do not align with what we hope every LU student believes. You don't learn anything by only listening to those who agree with you.


Nobody has said or suggested that a diversity of opinion at convo is bad. But at least try to think through the significance of normalizing and approving of heretics at a Christian school.


Allowing someone to speak at convocation is not normalizing or approving of anything.
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By BJWilliams
#526035
VAGolf wrote:
ALUmnus wrote:
VAGolf wrote:I don't have any issue with acknowledging that JFJR makes mistakes but I don't think you can ever argue that convo is one of them. Convo is not a church service and Liberty is not a church. Liberty is a school, and convocation is an opportunity. I'm not a fan of Steven Furtick, and I have little respect for the Osteen's. However, the purpose of convocation is not for students to be led in their religious beliefs. Maybe that was the purpose 20 years ago, but it's not that way any more and hasn't been for many years. They could bring in Bill Maher and I wouldn't care. In fact, I would appreciate it if they started bringing in even more diverse guests that do not align with what we hope every LU student believes. You don't learn anything by only listening to those who agree with you.


Nobody has said or suggested that a diversity of opinion at convo is bad. But at least try to think through the significance of normalizing and approving of heretics at a Christian school.


Allowing someone to speak at convocation is not normalizing or approving of anything.


Yes yes a thousand times yes to both your points Sweat
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By Purple Haize
#526039
ALUmnus wrote:Well that was an unfortunate reply. Stop judging our hearts, Proto.


Okay, seriously, who would it take for LU to associate themselves with or give a platform for you to finally say "well, you know what, I think they may have too far this time"? I'd love to know the answer to that.
Do you think it's even in the realm of all possibilities that Jerry Jr makes mistakes and may have poor judgment? Can we say it's at least possible?


Is that a trick question?
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By adam42381
#526062
TH Spangler wrote:Superstar from the hardwood on the way!!

http://www..edu/news/index.cfm?PID=18495&MID=219537

Broken link.

http://www.liberty.edu/news/index.cfm?P ... MID=219537
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By Sly Fox
#526082 And in case some of you old school were wondering, yes, that is manger that he is speaking alongside of him that day. Love seeing our old posters in the spotlight.
By Just John
#526121
VAGolf wrote:
ALUmnus wrote:Well that was an unfortunate reply. Stop judging our hearts, Proto.


Okay, seriously, who would it take for LU to associate themselves with or give a platform for you to finally say "well, you know what, I think they may have too far this time"? I'd love to know the answer to that.
Do you think it's even in the realm of all possibilities that Jerry Jr makes mistakes and may have poor judgment? Can we say it's at least possible?


I don't have any issue with acknowledging that JFJR makes mistakes but I don't think you can ever argue that convo is one of them. Convo is not a church service and Liberty is not a church. Liberty is a school, and convocation is an opportunity. I'm not a fan of Steven Furtick, and I have little respect for the Osteen's. However, the purpose of convocation is not for students to be led in their religious beliefs. Maybe that was the purpose 20 years ago, but it's not that way any more and hasn't been for many years. They could bring in Bill Maher and I wouldn't care. In fact, I would appreciate it if they started bringing in even more diverse guests that do not align with what we hope every LU student believes. You don't learn anything by only listening to those who agree with you.


I have been very supportive of LU bringing in non-Christians such as Ben Stein or a Mormon politician for convo. I defended LU for bringing Trump in several years ago as a non-Christian businessman. (Sorry, you HAVE to ask for forgivenesss to be considered a Christian per the Bible). I had no problem with those because they are non-religious speakers. I am not charismatic but was very appreciative Jerry Sr was open to fellowship and giving a voice to those Christian brothers and sisters.

However, I do have a problem with inviting and yes, normalizing IMO, religious speakers who preach an aberrant form of Christianity that preys most on the poor. There should be a line somewhere. Paula White crosses it. Is Benny Hinn next? Or maybe the faith-healer guy who kicks people as he prays over them for healing? Mike Murdoch maybe? Or perhaps Jim Bakker's son?

(Disclaimer: Paula White was a client of my company and I had first-hand exposure to her organization and the product she offered on her program daily. I am glad that is no longer the case).
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By Purple Haize
#526122 Jerry Sr was often accused of preying on the poor as well. Not sure that's a good standard to have. In fact any national Minister would be accused of that.
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By BJWilliams
#526127 What does that have to do with Cain's message though...remember, White wasn't the one who spoke to the students this week. Im not saying that I agree with White's theology (or anyone who preaches that way), but I don't think that the fact that she happens to be married to the speaker means that they are normalizing the message.
By Just John
#526144
Purple Haize wrote:Jerry Sr was often accused of preying on the poor as well. Not sure that's a good standard to have. In fact any national Minister would be accused of that.


Apples and oranges. Sure, we all heard that. A lot. But I would hope we would have the discernment to see the difference between Jerry Sr asking people to give sacrificially to build a school or a ministry to serve others as opposed to "sewing a seed because God wants you to be rich". We knew Jerry wasn't using this money to live an extravagant lifestyle for himself.

Jr. introduced Paula White, was very laudatory, said she taught the world that not all Christians are Pharisees and invited her to address the students for a few minutes. That is "normalizing and approving of a person in a spiritual way.

I was a member for many years and on staff at Rick Warren's church in CA and he got hammered unfairly for "Christianity lite" and being "liberal", etc. As such, I'm always circumspect to criticize someone else in ministry. I only speak out now about this because it reflects on a school I love and support. The Word Faith "theology" is aberrant and non-biblical. It's only very recent, when the word has lost all meaning, that it's proponents would have even been considered "evangelical".

Again, is there a line on who LU should have at convo specifically representing Christianity? Maybe Rob Bell? Hey, "having him there wouldn't normalize his views". "It's only convo and the students should listen to a wide variety of "Christianity".
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By Purple Haize
#526146
Just John wrote:
Purple Haize wrote:Jerry Sr was often accused of preying on the poor as well. Not sure that's a good standard to have. In fact any national Minister would be accused of that.


Apples and oranges. Sure, we all heard that. A lot. But I would hope we would have the discernment to see the difference between Jerry Sr asking people to give sacrificially to build a school or a ministry to serve others as opposed to "sewing a seed because God wants you to be rich". We knew Jerry wasn't using this money to live an extravagant lifestyle for himself.

Jr. introduced Paula White, was very laudatory, said she taught the world that not all Christians are Pharisees and invited her to address the students for a few minutes. That is "normalizing and approving of a person in a spiritual way.

I was a member for many years and on staff at Rick Warren's church in CA and he got hammered unfairly for "Christianity lite" and being "liberal", etc. As such, I'm always circumspect to criticize someone else in ministry. I only speak out now about this because it reflects on a school I love and support. The Word Faith "theology" is aberrant and non-biblical. It's only very recent, when the word has lost all meaning, that it's proponents would have even been considered "evangelical".

Again, is there a line on who LU should have at convo specifically representing Christianity? Maybe Rob Bell? Hey, "having him there wouldn't normalize his views". "It's only convo and the students should listen to a wide variety of "Christianity".


Word of Faith teachings came out of the Evangelical movement. 'Recent' compared to the 99 Thesis is maybe accurate. But it's been around for quite awhile. I would say it's roots can be traced back a long ways early 1900's is about as early as I feel comfortable. But it was popular in the 50's and boomed in the 80's.
As to your last question, I'm sure there is someone but Paula White ain't it.
By Just John
#530610 I am told Paula White will be at LU's Commencement Saturday. I truly pray to God she isn't recognized from the platform. THESE are some of the reasons LU should have NOTHING to do with her, at least publicly.

https://heatst.com/politics/the-preside ... her-money/

Get past the Bentley's, the malfeasance, the seeming no-show jobs for some family member's etc. I have real problems with that stuff but not near as many problems with this kind of nonsense:

Prempeh, the guest speaker, delivered an unorthodox sermon in which he periodically asked the audience to scream and chant. He repeatedly suggested members might be struggling in their relationships or finances because they’d been cursed by witches.

Claiming to have the power of prophesy, Prempeh told one woman in the congregation he foresaw that she would “lift the flag of America, and gold medals are waiting for you,” along with a lucrative athletic endorsement contract. But he said someone jealous of her talent “has sent a picture of you, has sent it to Guyana to a certain voodoo [priest].” Prempeh said the curse had been lifted, and her foe was “about to have a terminal injury, and she will never make it.” He told another churchgoer he was supernaturally preventing a fatal car accident for her; also, a couple would avoid relational turmoil planned by the devil, he said.

After he finished prophesying, Prempeh called for another offering, asking people to give “your first $200 seed” and write “my financial freedom” on the envelope. “Money will not be a problem. I trust God,” he promised those who gave. “Please hurry up,” he later urged. “You have a chance to do this.” Dozens flocked to the front of the church to hand over pink envelopes.

One man in a beige jacket approached the stage. Prempeh called for a church worker to bring him a pink envelope. “The Lord told me to tell you something, to believe him for a seed of $5,000. … Let that seed get out of your hand. You have no question to ask God about why.” Prempeh promised that if the man gave the requested sum, “the Lord says he is delivering you from widowhood. You won’t be a widower. This year, you will not be a widower. … Just release the seed.”


That's beyond the pale. LU shouldn't be anywhere close to this mess.
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By LUminary
#530644 Just John is right on. Very informative, insightful and truthful posts.
By Just John
#530671
TH Spangler wrote:IM not sure about this stuff? There's a lot of fake news out there these days. Did Louise Mensch or Ed Brayton come up with this. Looks like click bait? :lol:


I recognize you are more than likely kidding but I will add I have had first-hand business experience with her "ministry" at least weekly for the last 6 years. I know several people in her "ministry" orb that if I said their name you would know of them. There's more gray than white. She also left our company owing money. (But sadly, that's not unique in the "ministry" world).