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By Yacht Rock
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#595710
TH Spangler wrote:Okay. Read a FB post a while back and thought maybe their insensitivity to you a long time ago was taken that way. :dontgetit
Believe it or not there are a lot of people who have issues with Jr's behavior that don't have some personal ax to grind.

If anything, a lot of folks gave Jr the benefit of the doubt with some of his reported behavior until they personally saw that where there's smoke, there actually was fire.

As far as his faith? Who knows. I do think that it is fair to ask these questions about the leader of a Christian university. I don't think that question should be relegated to pastors alone. It's something that does and should come with the territory.
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By chris leedlelee
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#595713
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 10th, 2020, 11:24 am But what I don't buy into is that just because someone is a lawyer means they have to be outwardly rude, demeaning, and condescending. You can fight for what you believe in while still showing the public attributes Jesus has called us all to conduct ourselves with.
I completely agree with this statement. That is something that Jerry will hopefully work on. I would hope that there is an accountability structure built around him to curb his bad behaviors. Without a structure of accountability, power is something that can be easily abused even if the individual happens to be Christian. Just look at King David.
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By flameshaw
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#595715
Yacht Rock wrote: February 10th, 2020, 6:09 pm
TH Spangler wrote:Okay. Read a FB post a while back and thought maybe their insensitivity to you a long time ago was taken that way. :dontgetit
Believe it or not there are a lot of people who have issues with Jr's behavior that don't have some personal ax to grind.

If anything, a lot of folks gave Jr the benefit of the doubt with some of his reported behavior until they personally saw that where there's smoke, there actually was fire.

Truth.
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By flameshaw
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#595716
chris leedlelee wrote: February 10th, 2020, 8:15 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 10th, 2020, 11:24 am But what I don't buy into is that just because someone is a lawyer means they have to be outwardly rude, demeaning, and condescending. You can fight for what you believe in while still showing the public attributes Jesus has called us all to conduct ourselves with.
I would hope that there is an accountability structure built around him to curb his bad behaviors.
Don't hold your breath. Don't see it happening without some major introspection and personal changes.
It is kinda bad when a staff member won't say things to you on a university phone, because they are concerned about the privacy of the call.
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By TH Spangler
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#595722
flameshaw wrote: February 10th, 2020, 8:44 pm It is kinda bad when a staff member won't say things to you on a university phone, because they are concerned about the privacy of the call.
I thought choosing your words on a phone at work or in a company email was just being wise. It was true where I worked and most of you know where that was. Maybe expectations are a little high?
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By Purple Haize
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#595726
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 10th, 2020, 11:24 am
chris leedlelee wrote: February 10th, 2020, 11:11 am
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 10th, 2020, 9:45 am So my question remains: do we have evidence that he's currently living a Christian life?
I think that personality differences are often used in the church as a spiritual benchmark rather than doctrinal integrity. While it is true that you "will know them by their fruits", Jerry has not, to our knowledge, explicitly condoned and exercised a specific sin in his life without repentance. Christians have encompassed all walks of life and often have had differences in temperament that led to divisions. Paul and Barnabas split over Mark, Peter was rash and temperamental, Matthew was a tax collector and Simon was a Zealot. Each had massive differences that would make your own differences with Jerry seem minuscule. While I wish Jerry would emphasize his Christianity more in his public life, he is also a lawyer, and it is totally within his right to fight for the legal and political causes that he believes in.
This is a great response. Thank you.

I'm 100% okay with Jerry fighting for the legal and political causes he believes in. And he doesn't have to have Biblical texts to back up each and every one of those causes. I believe there's a gigantic lane to run in as a Christian when it comes to those issues. If he believes there's an economic policy that is best for this country then by all means, he can support that policy. I'm absolutely okay with disagreeing on political issues and I think your post shows how we have evidence of Godly people disagreeing all the way back to the disciples and apostles.

But what I don't buy into is that just because someone is a lawyer means they have to be outwardly rude, demeaning, and condescending. You can fight for what you believe in while still showing the public attributes Jesus has called us all to conduct ourselves with.
So he fights he battles differently than you do. He runs his business differently than you would. Because of that you call his Christian Faith into question? Was his dad any less Christian for not paying his bills and putting up shoddy buildings? You know what , some people thought so. Still do. “If it’s Christian it out to be better” doesn’t mean much to someone owed $100k and has to close their business. Junior is in no way perfect. Nor are you nor are I. I’m sure there are things in your life if we looked at we’d say were very unChristlike. I’ve already submitted I have those in my life so fire away. But to take that to the step of saying he’s no longer Christian is a very dangerous step. It’s not something I see we should be doing at all. Be on the look out for false teachers and prophets etc, sure. But not sure how Junior falls into that category.
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By Jonathan Carone
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#595727
You're fighting just to fight at this point because it's obvious you're not reading entire posts. You're finding the things you can pull out and argue against instead of taking posts in full context.

I've admitted multiple times there are things in my life that would look very unChristlike. However, there are also plenty of things that would bear the good fruit and show people the Gospel is active and present in my life.

The Doc example is a terrible one that shows you're not reading as well. Doc did things that were unChristlike but again, he had plenty of things that showed an active and growing relationship with Jesus.

I've never once asked for Jerry to be perfect. I've never asked for him to do things the way I do them. I've said over and over (which you would see if you actually read the posts) I believe there's a wide breadth of how we operate as Christians. But at the end of the day, Scripture dictates the things we are supposed to do that are non-negotiables and we have actual evidence of him not following many of those things.

My question all along has been is there evidence of him having a relationship with Jesus? No one has answered with evidence, but rather have attacked the question and said why it was a wrong question to ask. For the public leader of a Christian institute and a person who claims to stand up for the Christian faith, the lack of evidence is disturbing.
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By TH Spangler
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#595729
Last time I caught an interview with him on tv he made two points that jumped out at me. 1, Christian's are not perfect, just forgiven. 2, if we are to judgemental we lose our ability to reach people.
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By Purple Haize
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#595731
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 11th, 2020, 10:10 am You're fighting just to fight at this point because it's obvious you're not reading entire posts. You're finding the things you can pull out and argue against instead of taking posts in full context.

I've admitted multiple times there are things in my life that would look very unChristlike. However, there are also plenty of things that would bear the good fruit and show people the Gospel is active and present in my life.

The Doc example is a terrible one that shows you're not reading as well. Doc did things that were unChristlike but again, he had plenty of things that showed an active and growing relationship with Jesus.

I've never once asked for Jerry to be perfect. I've never asked for him to do things the way I do them. I've said over and over (which you would see if you actually read the posts) I believe there's a wide breadth of how we operate as Christians. But at the end of the day, Scripture dictates the things we are supposed to do that are non-negotiables and we have actual evidence of him not following many of those things.

My question all along has been is there evidence of him having a relationship with Jesus? No one has answered with evidence, but rather have attacked the question and said why it was a wrong question to ask. For the public leader of a Christian institute and a person who claims to stand up for the Christian faith, the lack of evidence is disturbing.
I’ve read your posts thoroughly. All I see is a list of demands and questions on your part. I don’t know Junior from more than his public pronouncements. Haven’t had a professional interaction with him in 20 odd years. Who am I to judge whether or not he’s a Christian? And before you set yourself up as a judge you have to as, yourself the same question. When was the last time you sat down and talked to him? Do you have interactions with him ? If so then MAYBE you can be better judge.
The Senior example is absolutely perfect. Ruining people’s lives and businesses by not paying your bills and not keeping your promises can seem very unchristian. In fact I’m not sure where that’s even remotely encouraged in the Bible. Yet you are quick to defend him. Why? I’d wager because he was a more public person. Someone more comfortable in front of the public. In other words a completely different personality than Junior.
Junior is abrasive and awkward in public. That hardly naked him a non believer. He supports Trump bombastically. I was around when his dad did the same to the (divorced!) Ronald Reagan. You may not like how he does things or who he puts where to do things, and that’s 100% legit and would probably garner agreement in several areas. But when you attack someone, and by asking that type of question that’s exactly what you are doing, about being a Christian or not, that’s a line that should not be crossed
By stokesjokes
Posts
#595732
I don't think its an unfair question, but it is a rather abrasive one. Jerry is in the awkward in-between of being a Christian leader but not pastor. If this was instagram we would call him an influencer :lol: . To maybe reframe to a lesser questions, I'd say is Jerry the type of leader we want influencing the Christian body?
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By Jonathan Carone
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#595733
Why is it fair to question Osteen or Kanye or Bieber but not Jerry?

Jerry goes on tv multiple times each week. He routinely tweets and does interviews. He's very much in the public. Whether we like it or not, he's a Christian Leader.

As for attacking vs questioning, we are told over and over in Scripture to be aware of false teachers and those using the Scriptures for personal gain. That means, at times, when someone is displaying the characteristics that describe a false teacher, we have to ask the question if they're a true believer or a false teacher.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#595734
stokesjokes wrote: February 11th, 2020, 11:01 am I don't think its an unfair question, but it is a rather abrasive one. Jerry is in the awkward in-between of being a Christian leader but not pastor. If this was instagram we would call him an influencer :lol: . To maybe reframe to a lesser questions, I'd say is Jerry the type of leader we want influencing the Christian body?
Now THAT is a much better question. And I would say a good one to spark debate. It does not call a person’s Christian virtue into faith but rather what role that person should play.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#595738
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 11th, 2020, 11:14 am Why is it fair to question Osteen or Kanye or Bieber but not Jerry?

Jerry goes on tv multiple times each week. He routinely tweets and does interviews. He's very much in the public. Whether we like it or not, he's a Christian Leader.

As for attacking vs questioning, we are told over and over in Scripture to be aware of false teachers and those using the Scriptures for personal gain. That means, at times, when someone is displaying the characteristics that describe a false teacher, we have to ask the question if they're a true believer or a false teacher.
You falsely accuse me of not reading your posts, yet it’s obvious you have not read mine. Go back a page. I said that perhaps collectively we should look to ourselves more and calling out others Christian beliefs. So you just assume I’m calling those people out, when in fact I am not.
You are correct. We are to use our discernment when it comes to prophets and teacher etc. So if you find them lacking, don’t associate with them. But when we start to call people non Christians who behave differently than our expectations we stray far from the Gospel. I’ll give you a case in point that will hot close to home. If you vote for someone who supports abortion you can’t be a Christian. People believe that. So you want to be judged by that standard? Because all of a sudden a list of grievances will come out of the woodwork claiming ones actions do not reflect Christ, or reflect Christ enough or in the right way. Ergo, that person is not a Christian. Not a road I’m going down
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#595739
I didn't mean you, specifically, when I mention questioning those guys. I meant Christian culture in general. Sorry if that was confusing.
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#595740
Purple Haize wrote: February 11th, 2020, 11:38 am We are to use our discernment when it comes to prophets and teacher etc. So if you find them lacking, don’t associate with them. But when we start to call people non Christians who behave differently than our expectations we stray far from the Gospel.
I'm not so sure I agree with that.

John Piper did a sermon on this once where he said:
And then in 1 Timothy 5:19–20, Paul went beyond just “avoid them” to “rebuke them publicly.” So, speaking of elders who persist in error, he said, “Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin” — and that can be sin of false doctrine or sin of evil behavior, anyone who does not accept correction — “rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear..”
Paul names at least six false teachers that the church should watch out for.

So, I infer from Jesus and Paul and Luke and John that false teaching and destructive behavior are present dangers in this fallen world for the church. And all of us — especially shepherds, pastors — should be alert and discerning to identify and, in appropriate ways, expose. In order to protect the flock, we should expose them and minimize the spread of the gangrene (as Paul calls it).
And according to Ephesians 5:11, we are to expose the error. “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” “Censure them; show them to be wrong” is what the word elegchō means.
So it goes beyond just not associating with people you disagree with. If someone is actively doing things that is against the Gospel in the name of the Gospel, we are to call them on it.

I think - and you can correct me if I'm wrong - where our biggest disagreement is happening is I'm looking at actions and questioning what's in the heart and you think it's not someone's place to judge what's inside. That's a legitimate disagreement I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on.

If I'm wrong, and you're actually okay with the actions Jerry has been doing and how he treats people, that's a total disagreement that I can't justify.
By stokesjokes
Posts
#595741
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 11th, 2020, 11:14 am Why is it fair to question Osteen or Kanye or Bieber but not Jerry?
You may be looking at this from the wrong angle. Maybe we should be talking about being less cavalier when questioning the faiths of anybody, including Osteen, Kanye, and Bieber. It may be more productive to call out the false or troubling doctrines or behaviors rather than calling out the person.

I can look at Jerry and say I don't see the fruit of the spirit in his public behavior (I don't know him personally). And I can say the things he is doing and saying are not Christ-like. I think it is good (Biblical, even) to call a leader to repentance when we see problematic behavior. I want to be very careful, though, when I start trying to draw lines around who is "in" and who is "out."
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By Purple Haize
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#595742
What you think is correct. Whether I agree or disagree with how he acts in public I’m not sure I can question his salvation. I would certainly do things differently. But that’s easy to say from where I am at
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By Jonathan Carone
Posts
#595744
stokesjokes wrote: February 11th, 2020, 12:13 pm
Jonathan Carone wrote: February 11th, 2020, 11:14 am Why is it fair to question Osteen or Kanye or Bieber but not Jerry?
You may be looking at this from the wrong angle. Maybe we should be talking about being less cavalier when questioning the faiths of anybody, including Osteen, Kanye, and Bieber. It may be more productive to call out the false or troubling doctrines or behaviors rather than calling out the person.

I can look at Jerry and say I don't see the fruit of the spirit in his public behavior (I don't know him personally). And I can say the things he is doing and saying are not Christ-like. I think it is good (Biblical, even) to call a leader to repentance when we see problematic behavior. I want to be very careful, though, when I start trying to draw lines around who is "in" and who is "out."
I can buy this. I don't know that I 100% agree with it, but I get the line of thinking.

I think I put my "line" a little further down the field than you. For most people, I'm in line with what you're saying.

For leaders and those actively seeking to influence people, I think the line is a little different. There's a different standard.
By k9saber
Posts
#595745
The very rare post forthcoming...so much emotion driven response here, not a bad thing until it's mixed with the perfect truth of Scripture, then we have issues to address. Jonathan, I am always grateful for your Christ-centric starting points.

One of the free passes that is continually given in feel good Christianity is this, "Well, he's not perfect, nobody's perfect." This is absolutely true...no one is. But, this context is so overused and abused to excuse habitual patterns of sinful behavior by professing Christians, it is a direct mockery of true biblical grace. Do we really think that we aren't called to be set apart by the daily lives that we live?

There is no Scriptural standard for us walking in perfection, it can't be done by sinful creatures, the Law has more than proven that...on the other hand, Christ being perfect and sinless in keeping God's Law has "perfectly"accomplished our "perfection" based upon His work alone. It is shameful to have such low standards for the Christian community, it is even more disgraceful when the Name of Christ is used as a label to drive other agendas. At the end of the day, we should all be quite introspective of what we have been saved from and how marvelous and precious the grace is that has been given to those who are truly redeemed.
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By rogers3
Registration Days Posts
#595762
Pretty lengthy and personal comments on the thread. If Jr want at the helm of a Christian School, it wouldn't really matter. By trying to assume the role of being a leader in the Christian community, one would be foolish NOT to weigh his character. Everyone here including TH knows that this ship sailed long ago. I would not try to speculate about deep seated beliefs, but I wouldn't fault anyone for questioning the Board's continued support for him as the leader of the school. I don't think he is a good Chancellor... Good real estate developer, good deal make, good politician, but certainly not one that I would ever have my children look to as a leader when they head to college. What has happened at Liberty in the near past is not miraculous; I would argue that many who read this post would be rather effective in Jerry's role of they were able to use a billion dollars that students had borrowed to build out the campus. Folks, the environment is changing as seen by the recent removal of VTAG money from the online program. Hopefully Jr. will sell wise council because his first into the political really seem very self serving and at the same time, threaten the foundation of the school. This is the time when great effort should be out forth in an effort to build and develop the faculty and the educational program... That is much different than building a structure for a program and requires investment in people. It seems as though the only people that get invested in right now are friends and family.
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By Purple Haize
Registration Days Posts
#595763
rogers3 wrote: February 12th, 2020, 8:25 am Pretty lengthy and personal comments on the thread. If Jr want at the helm of a Christian School, it wouldn't really matter. By trying to assume the role of being a leader in the Christian community, one would be foolish NOT to weigh his character. Everyone here including TH knows that this ship sailed long ago. I would not try to speculate about deep seated beliefs, but I wouldn't fault anyone for questioning the Board's continued support for him as the leader of the school. I don't think he is a good Chancellor... Good real estate developer, good deal make, good politician, but certainly not one that I would ever have my children look to as a leader when they head to college. What has happened at Liberty in the near past is not miraculous; I would argue that many who read this post would be rather effective in Jerry's role of they were able to use a billion dollars that students had borrowed to build out the campus. Folks, the environment is changing as seen by the recent removal of VTAG money from the online program. Hopefully Jr. will sell wise council because his first into the political really seem very self serving and at the same time, threaten the foundation of the school. This is the time when great effort should be out forth in an effort to build and develop the faculty and the educational program... That is much different than building a structure for a program and requires investment in people. It seems as though the only people that get invested in right now are friends and family.
In my mind those are all legitimate and valid points of discussion debate and disagreement (if there are any). Completely different than saying someone has either walked away from the Faith or never belonged in the first place
On a side note....buy more guns and ammo :D
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By TH Spangler
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#595765
tyndal23 wrote: February 11th, 2020, 9:28 pm Book Dreyfuss for CONVO

I after watching this I was thinking, Liberty's convo is open to all presidential candidates from both parties. I believe Bernie is the only democrat to take advantage?

As far as the chancellor, I think he's doing a great job. Do I agree with everything he does? I don't agree with everything anyone does. Sometimes, in hindsight, I don't agree with what I do. :lol:
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By Purple Haize
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#595767
In case she’s watching I’d like to go on record that I agree with everything Mrs Purple does. Unless, at some point she herself disagrees with it at which point I will bear the blame for allowing it to happen
By ATrain
Registration Days Posts
#595880
TH Spangler wrote: February 12th, 2020, 9:02 am
tyndal23 wrote: February 11th, 2020, 9:28 pm Book Dreyfuss for CONVO

I after watching this I was thinking, Liberty's convo is open to all presidential candidates from both parties. I believe Bernie is the only democrat to take advantage?

As far as the chancellor, I think he's doing a great job. Do I agree with everything he does? I don't agree with everything anyone does. Sometimes, in hindsight, I don't agree with what I do. :lol:
As far as I am aware, Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump, and Gary Johnson were the only ones in the 2016 campaign to take advantage of it.
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